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It will be interesting to see how this plays out, because right now the West coast from San Francisco North to at least Fort Bragg, has been suffering a kelp di

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, because right now the West coast from San Francisco North to at least Fort Bragg, has been suffering a kelp die off of great proportions. No one is quite sure whats going on, but apparently due to climate change, or at least warmer ocean water from further South that we've had for the last 5 or more years, has caused the kelp to die off at a rapid rate, to the point of denuding whole sections of ocean bottom. The whole sea urchin industry has been devastated, and those folks received Federal Disaster funds last year to make it through this year, but things are still bleak. It's as big a catastrophe as the Australian coral die off, yet it's not getting much press here in the USA.

ianai 8y ago
This is part of the opportunity cost of the current extreme political climate and economic situation. Though people would still not necessarily pay much attention.
briandear 8y ago
No one knows what’s going on, so climate change is the default blame? But actually, California Fish and Wildlife DO know what’s going on: “Environmental stressors included impacts from a toxic algae bloom off the Sonoma coast in 2011, a widespread sea star disease in 2013 that was followed by an explosion in the sea urchin population, and the warm water conditions that have persisted offshore since 2014. In 2014 and 2015, coastal water temperatures along the West Coast rocketed upwards due to a combination of oceanographic features: the “Warm Blob” in 2014, combined with a strong El Niño that began in 2015.” https://cdfwmarine.wordpress.com/2016/03/30/perfect-storm-decimates-kelp/ https://cdfwmarine.wordpress.com/2016/03/30/perfect-storm-de... Climate change seems like a religion. “We don’t know why x is happening, so we’ll just say it’s God’s will.” That’s about the most anti-science attitude possible and it’s being embraced by people who purport to care about science. But, in the case of California kelp, we actually do know what is happening and it has nothing to do with long term climatic events — the warm water was due to cyclical ocean activity: La Niña and that combined with a sea star disease and toxic algae caused this problem. And notice, the problem didn’t exist in 2010. So global warming for hundreds of years, but it had little impact on kelp until just magically in 2015 — that was the tipping point for kelp? This is the sort of nonsense that makes me detest the global warming crowd. Clearly global warming isn’t the cause of the California kelp issue, yet, predictably, that issue gets added into the propaganda machine. Let’s say climate change isn’t the cause of Absolutely Every Natural Phenomenon.. but there are those that would make policy as if it were. A half degree rise in temperature — assuming that is actually true, isn’t going to cause a massive kelp die-off, considering Pacific ocean temperatures fluctuate by far more dramatic amounts routinely due to El Niño/La Niña. The ocean is far more resilient. Pollution is a far more dire danger. Chemical runoff, trash dumping — far more toxic to the ocean than anything else. But, it easier just to spout “climate change” and the “woke” folks will just nod knowingly, actual causation or proof be damned. And we just continue along the socially acceptable path of blaming capitalism for all the world’s problems without actually doing much to solve anything.
- Hendrikto 8y ago
  Dude chill... you are essentially saying the same thing. > … due to climate change, or at least warmer ocean water from further South that we've had for the last 5 or more years, has caused the kelp to die off at a rapid rate
- torstenvl 8y ago
  TFW your climate change denialism goes so far off the deep end that you literally claim that warmer water in the most global of the oceans isn't related to global warming...
  - colechristensen 8y ago
    Climate change isn't the weather. It isn't one year or several years, it's a trend over decades or centuries or millennia. Do you know what's normal? Abnormal weather. Exceptional circumstances happen all the time, weather conditions do not follow a bell curve. I am not at all denying climate change, but you can never point to an event and shout about it. It's a long term statistical trend, not a few coincidental events. It's one variable out of many that cause every weather event. Warmer water is absolutely not related to climate change when you're talking about small scale short term events.
    - throwaway5752 8y ago
      "Warmer water is absolutely not related to climate change when you're talking about small scale short term events." Do you understand how statistics work?
    - senorjazz 8y ago
      > Warmer water is absolutely not related to climate change Warmer water is not absolutely related to climate change I think you got your "not" in the wrong place. No, climate change isn't the only thing, however it can be, along with human caused acidification / pollution. The fact is this systems are so complex and so integrated that we do not know "absolutely", but we have a good idea. But hey, if it isn't absolute, lets carry on destroying our planet, we have a backup plan after all... oh wait
Havoc 8y ago
>It's as big a catastrophe as the Australian coral die off Not really. Kelp grows at 3+ inches a day. Coral <1 inch per year.
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  The rate of growth is immaterial if the die-off is because of a permanent change, which there is every reason to believe is the case (based on every model of climate change, and it will only get worse). Also, the rest of the trophic web that the kelp forms the basis for is hosed. Since they are one of the most productive ecosystems, it's kind of a big deal.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    There are different types of kelp, not all of which are as sensitive to water temperature. For example, SoCal's kelp forests were not as devasted as NorCal's kelp forest. The biggest concern for SoCal's kelp forests are controlling the urchin population. Moreover, kelp populations are easily restored through cuttings--an entire forest can be repopulated in less than a decade because kelp grow so quickly. Kelp die-off is a problem, but it's a temporary and addressable problem.
ransom1538 8y ago
"catastrophe as the Australian coral die off," I went deep sea fishing in Florida a few months back. It took forever to get to a place where there were actual fish. I asked the captain why, basically, he knows where there are large shipping container wrecks and that is where all the sea life is. Thing is, building coral and sea life is super simple [same with killing it]. You literally can just lay down wire grids and get things moving [1]. [1] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-26/scientists-discover-game-changer-for-great-barrier-reef/9190200 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-26/scientists-discover-ga...
- Chardok 8y ago
  "Thing is, building coral and sea life is super simple [same with killing it]." That is just simply not true. While it might be helpful to lay down structures for sea life, ocean acidification [1], algal blooms [2], and climate change are all contributing to mass death of sea life, and fast enough where we will see many species go extinct in our lifetime (bluefin tuna will be there soon [3]). Even related to your own fishing story, check out the fish sizes and diversity in the 1950s compared to now. [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algal_bloom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algal_bloom [3] https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060724-bluefin-tuna.html https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060724-blue... [4] https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/02/05/257046530/big-fish-stories-getting-littler https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/02/05/257046530/b...
  - asimpletune 8y ago
    Woah, I was really surprised by the different sizes of the fish.
    - rileyphone 8y ago
      Important to note is that the biggest fish caught in the 50s and 60s seem to all be goliath groupers (also known as jewfish) and are now critically endangered and illegal to keep. I imagine they still catch some on these charter boats, but they are required to release them once they do.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
According to the article, it's difficult to produce that large of an amount of seaweed. Probably not going to happen in the next 5 years.
ajmurmann 8y ago
It's horrifying that this is happening and I haven't heard about it and all we are talking about is if and how some dude paid a stripper.
- colordrops 8y ago
  It's actually related. The Russians are responsible for the kelp die off.
christophclarke 8y ago
Not sure about the situation on the West Coast, but based on a recent 60 Minutes episode there seems to be a burgeoning commercial kelp farming market on the East Coast. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/seaweed-farming-and-its-surprising-benefits/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/seaweed-farming-and-its-surpris...
- jonwachob91 8y ago
  Exactly what I was thinking about too. The episode even talked about how the increase acidification is really good for growing kelp.
gamblor956 8y ago
Per various articles I could find on the West Coast Kelp Die Off, it appears that multiple years of warm El Nino waters, a massive starfish wasting disease, and urchin boom resulted in a 3-pronged assault on kelp populations. Now that the El Nino waters have cooled, and the starfish population is returning to normal, 2 of the 3 stress factors are being reduced. The last--the urchin population--is being controlled through a combination of the regrowing starfish population and man-made efforts like urchin vacuums. See https://www.kqed.org/science/1357320/scientists-and-fishermen-scramble-to-save-northern-californias-kelp-forests https://www.kqed.org/science/1357320/scientists-and-fisherme....
- hackerseven 8y ago
  So I have studied this issue extensively. I personally know Jon Holcomb, the vacuum inventor. First, to dispel any myths. There is zero funding for this effort. It also takes a solid month of effort to clear a football field sized area. Compare that speed to the breeding cycle of the invasive urchin species boom and you have a very ineffective method of population control. Although his efforts were innovative. Jon will echo my comments. I live in the coastal community area between Fort Bragg and SF. I have been diving for nine years now, and I can attest to the fact that the ocean is literally barren here. We are talking no sea life except these urchin and rocks. Most if not all urchin divers have sold their boats, and laid off their crew. They have no retirement, little savings and live under or just at the poverty line. The effects spread from the South to the North. The starfish population "boom" in Oregon isn't returning to normal, they have yet to survive the maelstrom that creeps their way. It is serious devastation out here.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    I'm not saying that the kelp weren't devastated by those 3 things, I'm saying that the resulting devastation is not permanent. Funding especially is an addressable issue; Patagonia, for example, donates to kelp restoration activities in SoCal and would presumably donate to similar efforts in NorCal if asked.
    - 8y ago
SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
"No one is quite sure whats going on, but apparently due to climate change" Look... statements like that, don't help any serious arguments for climate change. To practical-skeptics, you might as well have written "IDK BUT WE BETTER FAVOR SOME COMPANIES WITH TAXES TO BE SAFE" which is a real annoyance of mine. Esp considering other commenters pretty much ruled out your assumption.
- cfadvan 8y ago
  AGW skeptics, like evolution and spheroid Earth skeptics are their own audience, no one else is really bothering to tailor their speech to them. We’ve entered the casually dismissive phase of the relationship. The ROI for dealing with people who are in denial is rarely positive after all.
  - neves 8y ago
    I was watching the marvelous new edition of the Comos series, and it was really annoying the time spend rebuffing theories like "evolution does not exist" or "no prove of global warning". Please give more of the good stuff.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - delbel 8y ago
    "AGW skeptics" just want a sincere conversation based on science. Like one would say, what about the effects of water vapor on climate change? And pointing out, you can't come to a conclusion and when it is disproven, cherry pick facts to fix your conclusion. It just doesn't work this way. So is it a sincere conversation or what? There's no point to engage with people who aren't honest about the science. Name calling, shaming, or framing them as "in denial" just confirms their observation the conversion isn't sincere.
    - yungchin 8y ago
      > Like one would say, what about the effects of water vapor on climate change? Is that a skeptics' thing? The answer is, water vapour is yet another positive feedback. https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.html https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.htm...
mceoin 8y ago
The kelp forests near South Australia have all died off as well: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/07/australias-vast-kelp-forests-devastated-by-marine-heatwave-study-reveals https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/07/australi...
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Different species of brown macro-algae, but same in Spain in the lasts 15 years. Most submerged forests of Laminaria vanished. It only takes a few degrees of temperature more and it seems that the young spores can't settle anymore. Brown algae have evolved to stand cold waters. To exploit wild seaweed as a resource to feed millions of cows would create a plethora of new problems. Nobody would agree to abonate their meadow or orchard with a product with a high content of salt for example.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

ianai 8y ago

This is part of the opportunity cost of the current extreme political climate and economic situation. Though people would still not necessarily pay much attention.

briandear 8y ago

No one knows what’s going on, so climate change is the default blame? But actually, California Fish and Wildlife DO know what’s going on: “Environmental stressors included impacts from a toxic algae bloom off the Sonoma coast in 2011, a widespread sea star disease in 2013 that was followed by an explosion in the sea urchin population, and the warm water conditions that have persisted offshore since 2014. In 2014 and 2015, coastal water temperatures along the West Coast rocketed upwards due to a combination of oceanographic features: the “Warm Blob” in 2014, combined with a strong El Niño that began in 2015.” https://cdfwmarine.wordpress.com/2016/03/30/perfect-storm-decimates-kelp/ https://cdfwmarine.wordpress.com/2016/03/30/perfect-storm-de... Climate change seems like a religion. “We don’t know why x is happening, so we’ll just say it’s God’s will.” That’s about the most anti-science attitude possible and it’s being embraced by people who purport to care about science. But, in the case of California kelp, we actually do know what is happening and it has nothing to do with long term climatic events — the warm water was due to cyclical ocean activity: La Niña and that combined with a sea star disease and toxic algae caused this problem. And notice, the problem didn’t exist in 2010. So global warming for hundreds of years, but it had little impact on kelp until just magically in 2015 — that was the tipping point for kelp? This is the sort of nonsense that makes me detest the global warming crowd. Clearly global warming isn’t the cause of the California kelp issue, yet, predictably, that issue gets added into the propaganda machine. Let’s say climate change isn’t the cause of Absolutely Every Natural Phenomenon.. but there are those that would make policy as if it were. A half degree rise in temperature — assuming that is actually true, isn’t going to cause a massive kelp die-off, considering Pacific ocean temperatures fluctuate by far more dramatic amounts routinely due to El Niño/La Niña. The ocean is far more resilient. Pollution is a far more dire danger. Chemical runoff, trash dumping — far more toxic to the ocean than anything else. But, it easier just to spout “climate change” and the “woke” folks will just nod knowingly, actual causation or proof be damned. And we just continue along the socially acceptable path of blaming capitalism for all the world’s problems without actually doing much to solve anything.

Hendrikto 8y ago
Dude chill... you are essentially saying the same thing. > … due to climate change, or at least warmer ocean water from further South that we've had for the last 5 or more years, has caused the kelp to die off at a rapid rate
torstenvl 8y ago
TFW your climate change denialism goes so far off the deep end that you literally claim that warmer water in the most global of the oceans isn't related to global warming...
- colechristensen 8y ago
  Climate change isn't the weather. It isn't one year or several years, it's a trend over decades or centuries or millennia. Do you know what's normal? Abnormal weather. Exceptional circumstances happen all the time, weather conditions do not follow a bell curve. I am not at all denying climate change, but you can never point to an event and shout about it. It's a long term statistical trend, not a few coincidental events. It's one variable out of many that cause every weather event. Warmer water is absolutely not related to climate change when you're talking about small scale short term events.
  - throwaway5752 8y ago
    "Warmer water is absolutely not related to climate change when you're talking about small scale short term events." Do you understand how statistics work?
  - senorjazz 8y ago
    > Warmer water is absolutely not related to climate change Warmer water is not absolutely related to climate change I think you got your "not" in the wrong place. No, climate change isn't the only thing, however it can be, along with human caused acidification / pollution. The fact is this systems are so complex and so integrated that we do not know "absolutely", but we have a good idea. But hey, if it isn't absolute, lets carry on destroying our planet, we have a backup plan after all... oh wait

Havoc 8y ago

>It's as big a catastrophe as the Australian coral die off Not really. Kelp grows at 3+ inches a day. Coral <1 inch per year.

throwaway5752 8y ago
The rate of growth is immaterial if the die-off is because of a permanent change, which there is every reason to believe is the case (based on every model of climate change, and it will only get worse). Also, the rest of the trophic web that the kelp forms the basis for is hosed. Since they are one of the most productive ecosystems, it's kind of a big deal.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  There are different types of kelp, not all of which are as sensitive to water temperature. For example, SoCal's kelp forests were not as devasted as NorCal's kelp forest. The biggest concern for SoCal's kelp forests are controlling the urchin population. Moreover, kelp populations are easily restored through cuttings--an entire forest can be repopulated in less than a decade because kelp grow so quickly. Kelp die-off is a problem, but it's a temporary and addressable problem.

ransom1538 8y ago

"catastrophe as the Australian coral die off," I went deep sea fishing in Florida a few months back. It took forever to get to a place where there were actual fish. I asked the captain why, basically, he knows where there are large shipping container wrecks and that is where all the sea life is. Thing is, building coral and sea life is super simple [same with killing it]. You literally can just lay down wire grids and get things moving [1]. [1] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-26/scientists-discover-game-changer-for-great-barrier-reef/9190200 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-26/scientists-discover-ga...

Chardok 8y ago
"Thing is, building coral and sea life is super simple [same with killing it]." That is just simply not true. While it might be helpful to lay down structures for sea life, ocean acidification [1], algal blooms [2], and climate change are all contributing to mass death of sea life, and fast enough where we will see many species go extinct in our lifetime (bluefin tuna will be there soon [3]). Even related to your own fishing story, check out the fish sizes and diversity in the 1950s compared to now. [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algal_bloom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algal_bloom [3] https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060724-bluefin-tuna.html https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060724-blue... [4] https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/02/05/257046530/big-fish-stories-getting-littler https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/02/05/257046530/b...
- asimpletune 8y ago
  Woah, I was really surprised by the different sizes of the fish.
  - rileyphone 8y ago
    Important to note is that the biggest fish caught in the 50s and 60s seem to all be goliath groupers (also known as jewfish) and are now critically endangered and illegal to keep. I imagine they still catch some on these charter boats, but they are required to release them once they do.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

According to the article, it's difficult to produce that large of an amount of seaweed. Probably not going to happen in the next 5 years.

ajmurmann 8y ago

It's horrifying that this is happening and I haven't heard about it and all we are talking about is if and how some dude paid a stripper.

colordrops 8y ago
It's actually related. The Russians are responsible for the kelp die off.

christophclarke 8y ago

Not sure about the situation on the West Coast, but based on a recent 60 Minutes episode there seems to be a burgeoning commercial kelp farming market on the East Coast. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/seaweed-farming-and-its-surprising-benefits/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/seaweed-farming-and-its-surpris...

jonwachob91 8y ago
Exactly what I was thinking about too. The episode even talked about how the increase acidification is really good for growing kelp.

gamblor956 8y ago

Per various articles I could find on the West Coast Kelp Die Off, it appears that multiple years of warm El Nino waters, a massive starfish wasting disease, and urchin boom resulted in a 3-pronged assault on kelp populations. Now that the El Nino waters have cooled, and the starfish population is returning to normal, 2 of the 3 stress factors are being reduced. The last--the urchin population--is being controlled through a combination of the regrowing starfish population and man-made efforts like urchin vacuums. See https://www.kqed.org/science/1357320/scientists-and-fishermen-scramble-to-save-northern-californias-kelp-forests https://www.kqed.org/science/1357320/scientists-and-fisherme....

hackerseven 8y ago
So I have studied this issue extensively. I personally know Jon Holcomb, the vacuum inventor. First, to dispel any myths. There is zero funding for this effort. It also takes a solid month of effort to clear a football field sized area. Compare that speed to the breeding cycle of the invasive urchin species boom and you have a very ineffective method of population control. Although his efforts were innovative. Jon will echo my comments. I live in the coastal community area between Fort Bragg and SF. I have been diving for nine years now, and I can attest to the fact that the ocean is literally barren here. We are talking no sea life except these urchin and rocks. Most if not all urchin divers have sold their boats, and laid off their crew. They have no retirement, little savings and live under or just at the poverty line. The effects spread from the South to the North. The starfish population "boom" in Oregon isn't returning to normal, they have yet to survive the maelstrom that creeps their way. It is serious devastation out here.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  I'm not saying that the kelp weren't devastated by those 3 things, I'm saying that the resulting devastation is not permanent. Funding especially is an addressable issue; Patagonia, for example, donates to kelp restoration activities in SoCal and would presumably donate to similar efforts in NorCal if asked.
  - 8y ago

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago

"No one is quite sure whats going on, but apparently due to climate change" Look... statements like that, don't help any serious arguments for climate change. To practical-skeptics, you might as well have written "IDK BUT WE BETTER FAVOR SOME COMPANIES WITH TAXES TO BE SAFE" which is a real annoyance of mine. Esp considering other commenters pretty much ruled out your assumption.

cfadvan 8y ago
AGW skeptics, like evolution and spheroid Earth skeptics are their own audience, no one else is really bothering to tailor their speech to them. We’ve entered the casually dismissive phase of the relationship. The ROI for dealing with people who are in denial is rarely positive after all.
- neves 8y ago
  I was watching the marvelous new edition of the Comos series, and it was really annoying the time spend rebuffing theories like "evolution does not exist" or "no prove of global warning". Please give more of the good stuff.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- delbel 8y ago
  "AGW skeptics" just want a sincere conversation based on science. Like one would say, what about the effects of water vapor on climate change? And pointing out, you can't come to a conclusion and when it is disproven, cherry pick facts to fix your conclusion. It just doesn't work this way. So is it a sincere conversation or what? There's no point to engage with people who aren't honest about the science. Name calling, shaming, or framing them as "in denial" just confirms their observation the conversion isn't sincere.
  - yungchin 8y ago
    > Like one would say, what about the effects of water vapor on climate change? Is that a skeptics' thing? The answer is, water vapour is yet another positive feedback. https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.html https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.htm...

mceoin 8y ago

The kelp forests near South Australia have all died off as well: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/07/australias-vast-kelp-forests-devastated-by-marine-heatwave-study-reveals https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/07/australi...

pvaldes 8y ago
Different species of brown macro-algae, but same in Spain in the lasts 15 years. Most submerged forests of Laminaria vanished. It only takes a few degrees of temperature more and it seems that the young spores can't settle anymore. Brown algae have evolved to stand cold waters. To exploit wild seaweed as a resource to feed millions of cows would create a plethora of new problems. Nobody would agree to abonate their meadow or orchard with a product with a high content of salt for example.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]