10 ms·

“The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

111 points by lermontov 8y ago

ikeyany 8y ago
Doesn't the word 'savant' imply wisdom? Prince Myshkin is as naive as they come. I would think someone in his shoes wouldn't mind being walked all over like he is in the book. "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
- tgragnato 8y ago
  The oxymoron "idiot savant" was used for the first time by John Down during his studies. The etymology is in the scientific literature. Today we would use a less controversial term like "savant syndrome"... It seems appropriate given the title of the book (and the plot). I always took it as an eulogy to the plasticity of the human intellect: we always have something to learn from anybody.
  - sp332 8y ago
    I think the title is playing on the phrase "idiot savant" to indicate Dostoevsky himself, as the savant who wrote "The Idiot".
    - drunkenmonkey 8y ago
      I think the main character is a Savant, who others view as an idiot. The title and its characterization are ironic. He is the smartest character in the book, but viewed as an idiot, due to a consistently ignorant society. Not unlike, for example, Sufi poets who claim to be gods and then are humiliated and executed for heresy. His label of “idiot” is his execution. A crowd crying to crucify Christ.
- urmish 8y ago
  He is naive, but seems to be self aware. He does realize he is not street smart, but being naive implies he is unaware of this. Prince Myshkin doesn't want to change and well realizes the cunning nature of some people around him. He still isn't a savant, but calling him naive wouldn't be accurate either considering he did have diminished mental and physical faculties.
  - ikeyany 8y ago
    His words and actions show he is incapable of viewing things from others' perspectives, as demonstrated by trying to marry Nastasya. He may be aware of his own motives but he is very unaware of how the motives of others contrast.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
The novel is beautiful, and it's beauty is not in a traditional story arch, it's in the flawed characters. The mystery of whether Myshkin is an idiot remains through and with every scene that thought is put into question. Dostoevsky was not know for his structure, but for his characters and their meditations on life and religion.
robotkdick 8y ago
TLDR; Dostoevsky was considered to be a genius by many, but gave nearly every dime he ever made away, a condition that led to his unpayable debts, which he exacerbated by gambling, which led to exile. Early in life, moments away from being executed, Tsar Nicholas spared him and the other prisoners from death but sent him to a Siberian prison for four years. He suffered from epilepsy and had a fit while his wife went into labor. Unable to call for a midwife for "hours" their child died, and Dostoevsky blamed himself. The Idiot breaks a lot of literary conventions, but it works, just as Dostoevsky lived a broken life, and yet is considered by many a genius. The article is very good. I recommend reading it in full.
- nasredin 8y ago
  WRT gambling he was a fiend for the roulette wheel IIRC.
urmish 8y ago
This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a special spot in my heart because of how much I can relate to the protagonist unfortunately. Can anyone recommend other similar works of literature? I haven't read many books like this but I found Siddhartha, Narcissus and Goldmund and Steppenwolfe by Herman Hesse to be on the same lines (deal with existentialism).
- jbattle 8y ago
  I think you would like Dead Souls by Gogol. It has the same kind of biting criticism as the idiot, but it's a bit darker (if I remember right) - not as dark as C&P, but darker than the idiot
  - urmish 8y ago
    Thanks. Yeah am not really looking for dark themes but as you said, 'biting criticism' of society and 'the human condition'
  - darepublic 8y ago
    The idiot is darker than crime and punishment...
- hcrisp 8y ago
  Other existentialist works include: - "The Plague", by Albert Camus - "Metamorphisis", by Franz Kafka - "The Moviegoer", by Walker Percy - "The Bridge Over San Luis Rey", by Thornton Wilder I can't say they are enjoyable or relevant in the way Dostoevsky's books are.
  - minieggs 8y ago
    If you enjoy these The Roads to Freedom series by Sartre I found great as well.
graeme 8y ago
Has anyone ever examined whether serialization had an impact on the quality of literature?
- emodendroket 8y ago
  How would you tell?
dboreham 8y ago
Also: written in Florence (mostly).
narrator 8y ago
The thing that most impressed me about the Idiot was the extreme complexity of the interpersonal relationships of the characters. It made me think that Dostoevsky was vastly overstating the intelligence of the average Russian, or maybe they were all that smart back in the day. Some of the monologues in which the main characters explain the various interpersonal relationships and intrigues are as hard to follow as any I've ever read. The only thing that comes close is some of Pynchon's stuff.
- westoncb 8y ago
  I'm tempted to think that's an artifact of a tendency in writers to give their characters thought processes resembling their own. I don't think it's anything especially related to writing; I think everyone does it in their normal life: you want to think about how so and so is going to react to whatever, but the best we can really do is consider them as basically like ourselves +/- some known differences (which for many things is sufficient, but in my experience can also lead to absurdities due to how vastly differently some folks think).
alistoriv 8y ago
The Idiot is one of my favorite books of all time. Reading it in high school was definitely a formative experience. It was my first introduction to many existential concepts; particularly the parts about the painting by Hans Holbein the Younger.

111 points by lermontov 8y ago

Doesn't the word 'savant' imply wisdom? Prince Myshkin is as naive as they come. I would think someone in his shoes wouldn't mind being walked all over like he is in the book. "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

tgragnato 8y ago
The oxymoron "idiot savant" was used for the first time by John Down during his studies. The etymology is in the scientific literature. Today we would use a less controversial term like "savant syndrome"... It seems appropriate given the title of the book (and the plot). I always took it as an eulogy to the plasticity of the human intellect: we always have something to learn from anybody.
- sp332 8y ago
  I think the title is playing on the phrase "idiot savant" to indicate Dostoevsky himself, as the savant who wrote "The Idiot".
  - drunkenmonkey 8y ago
    I think the main character is a Savant, who others view as an idiot. The title and its characterization are ironic. He is the smartest character in the book, but viewed as an idiot, due to a consistently ignorant society. Not unlike, for example, Sufi poets who claim to be gods and then are humiliated and executed for heresy. His label of “idiot” is his execution. A crowd crying to crucify Christ.
urmish 8y ago
He is naive, but seems to be self aware. He does realize he is not street smart, but being naive implies he is unaware of this. Prince Myshkin doesn't want to change and well realizes the cunning nature of some people around him. He still isn't a savant, but calling him naive wouldn't be accurate either considering he did have diminished mental and physical faculties.
- ikeyany 8y ago
  His words and actions show he is incapable of viewing things from others' perspectives, as demonstrated by trying to marry Nastasya. He may be aware of his own motives but he is very unaware of how the motives of others contrast.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

The novel is beautiful, and it's beauty is not in a traditional story arch, it's in the flawed characters. The mystery of whether Myshkin is an idiot remains through and with every scene that thought is put into question. Dostoevsky was not know for his structure, but for his characters and their meditations on life and religion.

robotkdick 8y ago

TLDR; Dostoevsky was considered to be a genius by many, but gave nearly every dime he ever made away, a condition that led to his unpayable debts, which he exacerbated by gambling, which led to exile. Early in life, moments away from being executed, Tsar Nicholas spared him and the other prisoners from death but sent him to a Siberian prison for four years. He suffered from epilepsy and had a fit while his wife went into labor. Unable to call for a midwife for "hours" their child died, and Dostoevsky blamed himself. The Idiot breaks a lot of literary conventions, but it works, just as Dostoevsky lived a broken life, and yet is considered by many a genius. The article is very good. I recommend reading it in full.

nasredin 8y ago
WRT gambling he was a fiend for the roulette wheel IIRC.

urmish 8y ago

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a special spot in my heart because of how much I can relate to the protagonist unfortunately. Can anyone recommend other similar works of literature? I haven't read many books like this but I found Siddhartha, Narcissus and Goldmund and Steppenwolfe by Herman Hesse to be on the same lines (deal with existentialism).

jbattle 8y ago
I think you would like Dead Souls by Gogol. It has the same kind of biting criticism as the idiot, but it's a bit darker (if I remember right) - not as dark as C&P, but darker than the idiot
- urmish 8y ago
  Thanks. Yeah am not really looking for dark themes but as you said, 'biting criticism' of society and 'the human condition'
- darepublic 8y ago
  The idiot is darker than crime and punishment...
hcrisp 8y ago
Other existentialist works include: - "The Plague", by Albert Camus - "Metamorphisis", by Franz Kafka - "The Moviegoer", by Walker Percy - "The Bridge Over San Luis Rey", by Thornton Wilder I can't say they are enjoyable or relevant in the way Dostoevsky's books are.
- minieggs 8y ago
  If you enjoy these The Roads to Freedom series by Sartre I found great as well.

graeme 8y ago

Has anyone ever examined whether serialization had an impact on the quality of literature?

emodendroket 8y ago
How would you tell?

dboreham 8y ago

Also: written in Florence (mostly).

narrator 8y ago

The thing that most impressed me about the Idiot was the extreme complexity of the interpersonal relationships of the characters. It made me think that Dostoevsky was vastly overstating the intelligence of the average Russian, or maybe they were all that smart back in the day. Some of the monologues in which the main characters explain the various interpersonal relationships and intrigues are as hard to follow as any I've ever read. The only thing that comes close is some of Pynchon's stuff.

westoncb 8y ago
I'm tempted to think that's an artifact of a tendency in writers to give their characters thought processes resembling their own. I don't think it's anything especially related to writing; I think everyone does it in their normal life: you want to think about how so and so is going to react to whatever, but the best we can really do is consider them as basically like ourselves +/- some known differences (which for many things is sufficient, but in my experience can also lead to absurdities due to how vastly differently some folks think).

alistoriv 8y ago

The Idiot is one of my favorite books of all time. Reading it in high school was definitely a formative experience. It was my first introduction to many existential concepts; particularly the parts about the painting by Hans Holbein the Younger.