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Apple cracking down on applications that send location data to third-parties

381 points by john58 8y ago

dep_b 8y ago
I'm working for years as a developer building iOS applications. Apple got so strict the last months maybe last year it's just incredible. Lots of questions about monetization and background services, they really want you to have a solid business case for background location or just don't use it. As a consumer I'm happy they take those steps though. My privacy is worth money. Either somebody sells it and gives me a "free" OS or somebody sells me an OS and I don't "sell" my privacy.
- EADGBE 8y ago
  They're positioning themselves to this space. It was interesting in the sense that it never was really marketed this way (by Apple); it was just the remainder product that didn't sell out your information. It's always good to sell a "feature" you've always had which costs you nothing.
  - maire 8y ago
    Apple always took location privacy seriously. I remember an interview between Steve Jobs and Walt Mossberg years ago on this subject. I looked it up again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo
    - parthdesai 8y ago
      Explain China then. Apple is being hypocritical in this case. Giving in to the demands of government when it hurts their business ( if it did take privacy as seriously as HN makes it out to be, they would take a stand in China) while advocating privacy in Western world.
      - Jerry2 8y ago
        Like every business operating in China, Apple has to comply with local laws. And that's what they do. Everyone else who operates in China complies with them as well. Apple also complies with US laws and laws of EU.
        ghostly_s 8y ago
        Operating in China is a choice every one of these companies makes.
      - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
        I can’t be the only person tired of this canard, right? It’s said over and over that the benefit of Apple is an alignment of incentives in Western markets. That is to say, Apple is not faux-idealistic, they are capitalistic, and in most places that aligns with user goals. China is the exception, but for the same reasons.
      - Someone1234 8y ago
        Explain what with China? Apple are legally required to follow the law of countries they do business in. In China the law requires that the government, not third party apps, gains access to additional information. Apple can limit third party app privacy violations while still following the law. The only stand Apple could take here is: - Stop selling in China - Have executives go to jail Just as if they violated US law or EU-member's law.
        notyourday 8y ago
        So what you are saying that Apple's core beliefs are location-dependent. Personally, I think it is totally cool to have location-dependent core beliefs. I just think it is a total fan-boism not to acknowledge it.
        abc_lisper 8y ago
        Umm. No. I don’t wear the same clothes in a desert and a forest. To do so would be foolish. Imposing yourself on others when you have no power to do is not wise. I can keep my house clean but can’t expect everyone in my neighborhood to do so.
    - SiempreViernes 8y ago
      Serious in the sense that they seriously wanted it? July 2010 was when they rolled out their silent tracking of all ios 4 users in an unencrypted database on the device for up to 10 months. In a happy coincidence, a bug ensured that the (presumably untested) feature of turning of location serviced didn't actually prevent the tracking. And of course they never asked users for consent about this, except by putting something in the end of their 15000 word EULA. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/20/iphone-tracking-prompts-privacy-fears https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/20/iphone-tr... https://www.wired.com/2011/04/iphone-tracks/ https://www.wired.com/2011/04/iphone-tracks/
      - osteele 8y ago
        If Apple intended to collect locations, I would expect them to have recorded GPS (when otherwise enabled), and WiFi RSSI, instead of just cell tower RSSI. I can imagine theories that include this omission as part of deniability for a cover-up, or from a combination of incompetence and malevolence, but such theories seem overly complicated compared to the assumption of a simple log leak like Twitter's recent password logging bug. Whether these theories are too complicated depends on your priors about the evil intent of Apple's management and employees. If you already assume they're hypocrites about privacy, the location logging confirms it. I doubt it's convincing otherwise. (It's not convincing to me, unless there's a simpler story that ties it into ill intent, and that I'm just not coming up with.)
      - kalleboo 8y ago
        This was the dumbest privacy scandal ever. The database was on your phone. It wasn't sent anywhere. What good does that do Apple? What do they have to gain? It's obvious it was just a bug.
- Fradow 8y ago
  Do you know if they need a solid business case even if it is optional? For example, any idea if an optional "locate your device" feature would get shot down?
  - dep_b 8y ago
    Yes. I had a location tracking feature that would total your mileage automatically and submit it after your ride to your bookkeeper (this is mandatory for lease cars in some countries). I really had to explain that the app also might be backgrounded because people probably would be using Apple Maps to navigate while this thing was clocking away in the background
  - nsgi 8y ago
    No idea if this is Apple's policy, but I would expect apps to follow UNIX philosophy. "Locate your device" should really be a separate app rather than a fringe feature of a fart app.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  they really want you to have a solid business case for background location or just don't use it. I did notice that it was being used a lot, and it seemed like I had much worse battery life when using certain apps.
  - photojosh 8y ago
    You can specify you want different precision in location. If you just want rough location, you'll get notified if you change location based on WiFi or cell tower switch. This uses next to no extra battery power and is sufficient for many background applications. If you want exact location, then you'll be running the GPS, which indeed uses more battery. But even so, it's not that bad. I record detailed GPS for my runs quite often with a fitness app, and it only uses 5-7% battery an hour. (Key is to make sure it's not also hitting a data connection to download maps, and that the screen is off.)
- hiram112 8y ago
  >Either somebody sells it and gives me a "free" OS or somebody sells me an OS and I don't "sell" my privacy. Don't forget the Windows 10 model: You're forced to buy the OEM version on any new PC, and then you still get your privacy sold by MS.
  - nimbix 8y ago
    The last time I checked it was still possible to buy a computer without Windows, as well as buy Windows that can be transferred between machines. Most people just don't bother with that.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      Good luck with that. Even though it is possible it is much harder than just to ignore the problem and pay the Microsoft tax. And if you're going to buy a computer without windows why would you then buy Windows separately, that's much more expensive, and people that go out of their way to buy machines without Windows likely don't run Windows at all.
      - sgnl 8y ago
        Building a gaming PC is one case where you buy the Windows OS separately from the PC (especially if you're building it part by part)
      - notjtrig 8y ago
        You can have a windows partition on a machine that is primarily Linux. First install Windows and then install Linux and there's no issue. Windows 10 today does not require a licence to operate it will not lock you out if you never activate.
- mygo 8y ago
  well in addition to privacy concerns, location tracking is a huge drain on the battery. And a good battery life is one of their selling points so I wouldn’t be surprised if during part of the review process some reviewers might hold the opinion that there better be a good reason why your app is using so much juice in the background.
- mariodiana 8y ago
  I was on the phone with Apple once, arguing about why the iOS app I put together at work shouldn't be rejected for running location services all the time. The point the representative at Apple made was that something like that needs to be primarily for the user's benefit, as opposed to it being primarily for the benefit of the people behind the app. I was able to demonstrate that to them, and the app was approved. Apple is about apps being for the benefit of the user.
  - sizzle 8y ago
    Wow I might just have to turn in my Android phone. I've been using Android since the G1 flagship phone. I value privacy the older I get.
- flukus 8y ago
  > Either somebody sells it and gives me a "free" OS or somebody sells me an OS and I don't "sell" my privacy Linux desktops show a viable 3rd option, they are free, libre and protect your privacy (usually). The also provide the halfway point I want between the iOS model and the android model the provide a set of core well vetted apps from the store and allow me to install whatever else I want. Librem or whoever makes a mobile equivalent the linux desktop can't come soon enough.
billabul 8y ago
you would be surprised how many apps include analytics and gather in app usage data.
gepeto42 8y ago
They need to be much more aggressive towards apps that request access to the SSID of the current network. This is supposed to be limited, but in my experience, apps you would not expect to be doing that are doing it, and it's basically the same thing as location data.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Limited? This is public and unrestricted API, to my knowledge: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/systemconfiguration/scnetworkconfiguration https://developer.apple.com/documentation/systemconfiguratio...
  - gepeto42 8y ago
    Yeah, it was supposed to be - https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/nehotspothelper https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/n... Around iOS 9, Apple deprecated some of the Captive Portal APIs, then re-instated them, a lot of changes that went back and forth, but my conclusion is that today, years later, way too many apps seem to read my SSID. Doesn't really matter how they do it, but I wish there was a prompt for it and no way for an app to directly fetch it.
    - walterbell 8y ago
      Any downside to using a common SSID, https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats?
      - chimeracoder 8y ago
        > Any downside to using a common SSID, https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats? From the documentation, it's not clear to me if apps have permission to see either other nearby SSIDs or the names of other networks that the device has previously connected to. If the app has access to either one of those, it's equivalent to being given location data. Furthermore, last I checked, both iOS and Android broadcast the list of previously-connected SSIDs to nearby routers when connecting. That enables companies which track people's physical location over time without them having to download an app (yes, these companies exist[0]). [0] e.g. http://axper.com/ http://axper.com/
AznHisoka 8y ago
Does this include apps like Foursquare/Swarm that sell aggregated location data to hedge funds? [1] ...or are the big players exempt from the rules of the game? [1] https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/290543 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/290543
- bob_theslob646 8y ago
  This is another article that talks about how they actually do what the parent comment talks about. > When someone checks in to a place on Swarm, Foursquare's newer app, the company records the user's coordinates, helping it determine all the different coordinates associated with a single business or other place. > Foursquare says it can't disclose who its partners are, or how many different smartphone users' data it has acquired. But Rosenblatt says the company could, for example, create a list of "millions" of smartphone owners who frequently visit fast food restaurants by taking a pool of location data collected by its partners and comparing that to its database of fast food restaurant coordinates. > Advertisers could then use that data to show those users ads for fast food chains, or perhaps healthier alternatives or gym memberships—all without those people ever having to install a Foursquare app. [1](https://www.wired.com/2016/01/foursquares-plan-to-use-your-data-to-make-money-even-if-you-arent-a-user/ https://www.wired.com/2016/01/foursquares-plan-to-use-your-d...)
  - syncopate 8y ago
    Isn't that called geofencing? It's been around for years. I always felt that the main reason e.g. Facebook wants you to use their app is to be able to supply data for conversions of geofencing ad campaigns, e.g. someone saw an ad for a promotion at some burger place and then actually came to close proximity of their wlan.
- crystaln 8y ago
  And Facebook or Google? They certainly track your location without a user centric business case. I don't think ad presentation qualifies.
- RandallBrown 8y ago
Rjevski 8y ago
Finally. I wish third-party analytics would be next. A lot of apps are using analytics from companies who’s business model is inherently incompatible with privacy (Facebook & Google) and that concerns me.
- MBCook 8y ago
  The speculation is this is GDPR motivates, hopefully it will cause a crackdown on that stuff too. The fact Apple added a framework to help with analytics (IIRC) may be the first step towards REQUIRING people to only use that framework instead of 3rd party stuff so they can be sure it’s compliant with laws/Apple’s policies as well.
  - Fradow 8y ago
    GDPR doesn't regulate anonymous data. Unless you put PII in your analytics (not the default, and you really shouldn't) you won't have a problem. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure part of Google Analytics response to GDPR is "Don't put PII in there if you want to be GDPR compliant" (they are providing tools for compliance though).
    - Rjevski 8y ago
      The problem is anonymous data is an ambiguous term, as enough randomness in the “anonymous” data can still uniquely identify that individual. Let’s take YouTube for example - I never had an account with them, yet they recommend me videos based on what I watched previously - fair enough. The creepy part is, on a totally different machine, from a different IP and country, watching just a few very specific videos (not popular at all, each maybe 2k views) suddenly brings all those suggestions over. You could argue videos watched is anonymous data, but clearly a certain, unique “series” of videos is apparently enough to identify me. There’s also no doubt Google associates that with all the other “anonymous” data they have on me (search, maps & which browsers/IPs I used) and has an extremely detailed profile of me; sure, they don’t have my name nor exact address (yet), but they can definitely tell me apart from everyone else just based on a few searches and that’s quite creepy IMO.
julianozen 8y ago
Hey, are there any other developers experiencing this besides the one in the article? We noticed a few weeks ago that Apple has changed their static analysis tool and has been more aggressive with rejections. Has anyone else actually seen their app retroactively pulled from the App Store?
- _31 8y ago
  I haven't had the exact issue discussed in the article, but I have noticed that they have been really aggressive with rejections lately. Just this last week an app I'm trying to get into the store has been rejected 4 times, with the same exact automated message. I respond with an assertion of my apps compliance, but get the same automated response. These are the first rejections I've received in 7 years of submitting apps.
  - scarlac 8y ago
    Do you have an idea what rules you could be violating? Even with a good history, there's no guarantee an update is still good so they have to stay vigilant. Chrome store is a good example of this where popular extensions are sometimes bought and an update is pushed out with malware or spyware.
SEJeff 8y ago
If you're worried about analytics and tracking / ads on your iPhone, consider installing Disconnect's Privacy Pro: https://lifehacker.com/disconnect-pro-eliminates-tracking-on-iphone-and-samsun-1786903257 https://lifehacker.com/disconnect-pro-eliminates-tracking-on... It costs a few $$, but sets up a VPN profile that is generally always on. It just blocks all of the ads / "web bugs" / analytics stuff and gives you a UI to show how much. Apple cracking down is a good thing, but so is defense in depth. It estimates that it has blocked 8Mb of crap being downloaded on my phone just today.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  I've been pretty happy with 1Blocker Legacy but I never actually confirmed it really blocks trackers (creators claim it does). Thanks for the link, I'll consider buying.
- princekolt 8y ago
  While the concept is good, I'd be extremely concerned of using any third party VPN service, free or paid. You are basically trusting your entire internet usage to a single entity, and I think this is way too risky. One alternative is setting up a raspberry-pi at home running pi-hole and OpenVPN. While it is still not risk-free, it is still better than one centralized entity taking everyone's traffic. On the other hand, setting that up is still not absolutely straightforward, but it is getting better.
  - MBCook 8y ago
    I agree. “Don’t like being tracked? Just let us watch EVERYTHING you do and we promise to stop people from tracking you.” You’re putting someone in the perfect position to track you far better than anyone else could. You better REALLY trust them.
    - SEJeff 8y ago
      Again, it uses a VPN to route all traffic on the phone through the app, which sends no traffic anywhere outside of your phone (confirmed via my home firewall showing no traffic going out). It uses a VPN to simply route traffic through the app to null route bad destinations. Make sense?
sbhn 8y ago
What, is it legitimate companies selling your data? The fear media told me it was hackers.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  You must have your head in the sand if you don't see the "fear media" also warning you about legit companies tracking you. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/facebook-privacy-hearings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/facebook-priva... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-07/even-privacy-advocates-are-tracking-you-online https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-07/even-priv... https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-data-than-facebook-try-google-1524398401 https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-d... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2018/05/03/what-the-alleged-facebook-stalker-teaches-us-about-our-online-privacy/#62cb33b8672d https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2018/05/03/what-th...
  - sbhn 8y ago
    None of those articles made pole position. Only articles with ‘Hackers’ in the subject line, that’s plural, make pole position when amplifying that people’s personal data is under attack.
jacksmith21006 8y ago
Just hope they let the user chose.
- gruez 8y ago
  and what do you do when users get strongarmed (app refusing to run, dark patterns, etc.) into "accepting"?
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    Well then define how you make it clear to the user. I worry a bit that we will go too far with things. Some want the benefits of having the data to make user experience better. I am a perfect example of this.
shimfish 8y ago
I'm curious as to how this behaviour is actually detected. I mean are they checking for outgoing network requests that contain something that looks like co-ordinates because presumably that would be trivial to obfuscate. Or is this really just a case of rejecting apps that are asking for location even though the app has no real use for it?
- LeoNatan25 8y ago
  Apps are required to have an entry in the Info plist for location (both “while in use” and “always”). This is enforced by the kernel. So they are most likely looking there.
grantlmiller 8y ago
Isn't it just as likely that this data is being sent to the app vendor's servers and then off to one or multiple third-parties?
crystaln 8y ago
It's interesting how everyone hates the App Store approval model until they demand it be implemented more strictly.
longtermsec 8y ago
Apps are one risk, but it's an opt-in risk. Telecom companies are also another risk, and much larger one in that, because there is no opt out of location sharing with them. Same with analytics on your telco network traffic.
kvm000 8y ago
Would be nice if there was a more granular option for access to photos which allowed "image only" with no metadata... I assume most people don't realize when they grant photo library access to a cheap filter app that the app can grab the datetime and GPS location for all photos as well, which is a lot of data if they have a phone full with a ton of photos.
MessageLife1122 8y ago
I am glad on reading even just looking at the headline. haha

381 points by john58 8y ago

I'm working for years as a developer building iOS applications. Apple got so strict the last months maybe last year it's just incredible. Lots of questions about monetization and background services, they really want you to have a solid business case for background location or just don't use it. As a consumer I'm happy they take those steps though. My privacy is worth money. Either somebody sells it and gives me a "free" OS or somebody sells me an OS and I don't "sell" my privacy.

EADGBE 8y ago
They're positioning themselves to this space. It was interesting in the sense that it never was really marketed this way (by Apple); it was just the remainder product that didn't sell out your information. It's always good to sell a "feature" you've always had which costs you nothing.
- maire 8y ago
  Apple always took location privacy seriously. I remember an interview between Steve Jobs and Walt Mossberg years ago on this subject. I looked it up again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    Explain China then. Apple is being hypocritical in this case. Giving in to the demands of government when it hurts their business ( if it did take privacy as seriously as HN makes it out to be, they would take a stand in China) while advocating privacy in Western world.
    - Jerry2 8y ago
      Like every business operating in China, Apple has to comply with local laws. And that's what they do. Everyone else who operates in China complies with them as well. Apple also complies with US laws and laws of EU.
      - ghostly_s 8y ago
        Operating in China is a choice every one of these companies makes.
    - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
      I can’t be the only person tired of this canard, right? It’s said over and over that the benefit of Apple is an alignment of incentives in Western markets. That is to say, Apple is not faux-idealistic, they are capitalistic, and in most places that aligns with user goals. China is the exception, but for the same reasons.
    - Someone1234 8y ago
      Explain what with China? Apple are legally required to follow the law of countries they do business in. In China the law requires that the government, not third party apps, gains access to additional information. Apple can limit third party app privacy violations while still following the law. The only stand Apple could take here is: - Stop selling in China - Have executives go to jail Just as if they violated US law or EU-member's law.
      - notyourday 8y ago
        So what you are saying that Apple's core beliefs are location-dependent. Personally, I think it is totally cool to have location-dependent core beliefs. I just think it is a total fan-boism not to acknowledge it.
        abc_lisper 8y ago
        Umm. No. I don’t wear the same clothes in a desert and a forest. To do so would be foolish. Imposing yourself on others when you have no power to do is not wise. I can keep my house clean but can’t expect everyone in my neighborhood to do so.
  - SiempreViernes 8y ago
    Serious in the sense that they seriously wanted it? July 2010 was when they rolled out their silent tracking of all ios 4 users in an unencrypted database on the device for up to 10 months. In a happy coincidence, a bug ensured that the (presumably untested) feature of turning of location serviced didn't actually prevent the tracking. And of course they never asked users for consent about this, except by putting something in the end of their 15000 word EULA. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/20/iphone-tracking-prompts-privacy-fears https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/20/iphone-tr... https://www.wired.com/2011/04/iphone-tracks/ https://www.wired.com/2011/04/iphone-tracks/
    - osteele 8y ago
      If Apple intended to collect locations, I would expect them to have recorded GPS (when otherwise enabled), and WiFi RSSI, instead of just cell tower RSSI. I can imagine theories that include this omission as part of deniability for a cover-up, or from a combination of incompetence and malevolence, but such theories seem overly complicated compared to the assumption of a simple log leak like Twitter's recent password logging bug. Whether these theories are too complicated depends on your priors about the evil intent of Apple's management and employees. If you already assume they're hypocrites about privacy, the location logging confirms it. I doubt it's convincing otherwise. (It's not convincing to me, unless there's a simpler story that ties it into ill intent, and that I'm just not coming up with.)
    - kalleboo 8y ago
      This was the dumbest privacy scandal ever. The database was on your phone. It wasn't sent anywhere. What good does that do Apple? What do they have to gain? It's obvious it was just a bug.
Fradow 8y ago
Do you know if they need a solid business case even if it is optional? For example, any idea if an optional "locate your device" feature would get shot down?
- dep_b 8y ago
  Yes. I had a location tracking feature that would total your mileage automatically and submit it after your ride to your bookkeeper (this is mandatory for lease cars in some countries). I really had to explain that the app also might be backgrounded because people probably would be using Apple Maps to navigate while this thing was clocking away in the background
- nsgi 8y ago
  No idea if this is Apple's policy, but I would expect apps to follow UNIX philosophy. "Locate your device" should really be a separate app rather than a fringe feature of a fart app.
stcredzero 8y ago
they really want you to have a solid business case for background location or just don't use it. I did notice that it was being used a lot, and it seemed like I had much worse battery life when using certain apps.
- photojosh 8y ago
  You can specify you want different precision in location. If you just want rough location, you'll get notified if you change location based on WiFi or cell tower switch. This uses next to no extra battery power and is sufficient for many background applications. If you want exact location, then you'll be running the GPS, which indeed uses more battery. But even so, it's not that bad. I record detailed GPS for my runs quite often with a fitness app, and it only uses 5-7% battery an hour. (Key is to make sure it's not also hitting a data connection to download maps, and that the screen is off.)
hiram112 8y ago
>Either somebody sells it and gives me a "free" OS or somebody sells me an OS and I don't "sell" my privacy. Don't forget the Windows 10 model: You're forced to buy the OEM version on any new PC, and then you still get your privacy sold by MS.
- nimbix 8y ago
  The last time I checked it was still possible to buy a computer without Windows, as well as buy Windows that can be transferred between machines. Most people just don't bother with that.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Good luck with that. Even though it is possible it is much harder than just to ignore the problem and pay the Microsoft tax. And if you're going to buy a computer without windows why would you then buy Windows separately, that's much more expensive, and people that go out of their way to buy machines without Windows likely don't run Windows at all.
    - sgnl 8y ago
      Building a gaming PC is one case where you buy the Windows OS separately from the PC (especially if you're building it part by part)
    - notjtrig 8y ago
      You can have a windows partition on a machine that is primarily Linux. First install Windows and then install Linux and there's no issue. Windows 10 today does not require a licence to operate it will not lock you out if you never activate.
mygo 8y ago
well in addition to privacy concerns, location tracking is a huge drain on the battery. And a good battery life is one of their selling points so I wouldn’t be surprised if during part of the review process some reviewers might hold the opinion that there better be a good reason why your app is using so much juice in the background.
mariodiana 8y ago
I was on the phone with Apple once, arguing about why the iOS app I put together at work shouldn't be rejected for running location services all the time. The point the representative at Apple made was that something like that needs to be primarily for the user's benefit, as opposed to it being primarily for the benefit of the people behind the app. I was able to demonstrate that to them, and the app was approved. Apple is about apps being for the benefit of the user.
- sizzle 8y ago
  Wow I might just have to turn in my Android phone. I've been using Android since the G1 flagship phone. I value privacy the older I get.
flukus 8y ago
> Either somebody sells it and gives me a "free" OS or somebody sells me an OS and I don't "sell" my privacy Linux desktops show a viable 3rd option, they are free, libre and protect your privacy (usually). The also provide the halfway point I want between the iOS model and the android model the provide a set of core well vetted apps from the store and allow me to install whatever else I want. Librem or whoever makes a mobile equivalent the linux desktop can't come soon enough.

billabul 8y ago

you would be surprised how many apps include analytics and gather in app usage data.

gepeto42 8y ago

They need to be much more aggressive towards apps that request access to the SSID of the current network. This is supposed to be limited, but in my experience, apps you would not expect to be doing that are doing it, and it's basically the same thing as location data.

saagarjha 8y ago
Limited? This is public and unrestricted API, to my knowledge: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/systemconfiguration/scnetworkconfiguration https://developer.apple.com/documentation/systemconfiguratio...
- gepeto42 8y ago
  Yeah, it was supposed to be - https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/nehotspothelper https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/n... Around iOS 9, Apple deprecated some of the Captive Portal APIs, then re-instated them, a lot of changes that went back and forth, but my conclusion is that today, years later, way too many apps seem to read my SSID. Doesn't really matter how they do it, but I wish there was a prompt for it and no way for an app to directly fetch it.
  - walterbell 8y ago
    Any downside to using a common SSID, https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats?
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      > Any downside to using a common SSID, https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats https://www.wigle.net/stats#ssidstats? From the documentation, it's not clear to me if apps have permission to see either other nearby SSIDs or the names of other networks that the device has previously connected to. If the app has access to either one of those, it's equivalent to being given location data. Furthermore, last I checked, both iOS and Android broadcast the list of previously-connected SSIDs to nearby routers when connecting. That enables companies which track people's physical location over time without them having to download an app (yes, these companies exist[0]). [0] e.g. http://axper.com/ http://axper.com/

AznHisoka 8y ago

Does this include apps like Foursquare/Swarm that sell aggregated location data to hedge funds? [1] ...or are the big players exempt from the rules of the game? [1] https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/290543 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/290543

bob_theslob646 8y ago
This is another article that talks about how they actually do what the parent comment talks about. > When someone checks in to a place on Swarm, Foursquare's newer app, the company records the user's coordinates, helping it determine all the different coordinates associated with a single business or other place. > Foursquare says it can't disclose who its partners are, or how many different smartphone users' data it has acquired. But Rosenblatt says the company could, for example, create a list of "millions" of smartphone owners who frequently visit fast food restaurants by taking a pool of location data collected by its partners and comparing that to its database of fast food restaurant coordinates. > Advertisers could then use that data to show those users ads for fast food chains, or perhaps healthier alternatives or gym memberships—all without those people ever having to install a Foursquare app. [1](https://www.wired.com/2016/01/foursquares-plan-to-use-your-data-to-make-money-even-if-you-arent-a-user/ https://www.wired.com/2016/01/foursquares-plan-to-use-your-d...)
- syncopate 8y ago
  Isn't that called geofencing? It's been around for years. I always felt that the main reason e.g. Facebook wants you to use their app is to be able to supply data for conversions of geofencing ad campaigns, e.g. someone saw an ad for a promotion at some burger place and then actually came to close proximity of their wlan.
crystaln 8y ago
And Facebook or Google? They certainly track your location without a user centric business case. I don't think ad presentation qualifies.
RandallBrown 8y ago

Rjevski 8y ago

Finally. I wish third-party analytics would be next. A lot of apps are using analytics from companies who’s business model is inherently incompatible with privacy (Facebook & Google) and that concerns me.

MBCook 8y ago
The speculation is this is GDPR motivates, hopefully it will cause a crackdown on that stuff too. The fact Apple added a framework to help with analytics (IIRC) may be the first step towards REQUIRING people to only use that framework instead of 3rd party stuff so they can be sure it’s compliant with laws/Apple’s policies as well.
- Fradow 8y ago
  GDPR doesn't regulate anonymous data. Unless you put PII in your analytics (not the default, and you really shouldn't) you won't have a problem. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure part of Google Analytics response to GDPR is "Don't put PII in there if you want to be GDPR compliant" (they are providing tools for compliance though).
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    The problem is anonymous data is an ambiguous term, as enough randomness in the “anonymous” data can still uniquely identify that individual. Let’s take YouTube for example - I never had an account with them, yet they recommend me videos based on what I watched previously - fair enough. The creepy part is, on a totally different machine, from a different IP and country, watching just a few very specific videos (not popular at all, each maybe 2k views) suddenly brings all those suggestions over. You could argue videos watched is anonymous data, but clearly a certain, unique “series” of videos is apparently enough to identify me. There’s also no doubt Google associates that with all the other “anonymous” data they have on me (search, maps & which browsers/IPs I used) and has an extremely detailed profile of me; sure, they don’t have my name nor exact address (yet), but they can definitely tell me apart from everyone else just based on a few searches and that’s quite creepy IMO.

julianozen 8y ago

Hey, are there any other developers experiencing this besides the one in the article? We noticed a few weeks ago that Apple has changed their static analysis tool and has been more aggressive with rejections. Has anyone else actually seen their app retroactively pulled from the App Store?

_31 8y ago
I haven't had the exact issue discussed in the article, but I have noticed that they have been really aggressive with rejections lately. Just this last week an app I'm trying to get into the store has been rejected 4 times, with the same exact automated message. I respond with an assertion of my apps compliance, but get the same automated response. These are the first rejections I've received in 7 years of submitting apps.
- scarlac 8y ago
  Do you have an idea what rules you could be violating? Even with a good history, there's no guarantee an update is still good so they have to stay vigilant. Chrome store is a good example of this where popular extensions are sometimes bought and an update is pushed out with malware or spyware.

SEJeff 8y ago

If you're worried about analytics and tracking / ads on your iPhone, consider installing Disconnect's Privacy Pro: https://lifehacker.com/disconnect-pro-eliminates-tracking-on-iphone-and-samsun-1786903257 https://lifehacker.com/disconnect-pro-eliminates-tracking-on... It costs a few $$, but sets up a VPN profile that is generally always on. It just blocks all of the ads / "web bugs" / analytics stuff and gives you a UI to show how much. Apple cracking down is a good thing, but so is defense in depth. It estimates that it has blocked 8Mb of crap being downloaded on my phone just today.

pdimitar 8y ago
I've been pretty happy with 1Blocker Legacy but I never actually confirmed it really blocks trackers (creators claim it does). Thanks for the link, I'll consider buying.
princekolt 8y ago
While the concept is good, I'd be extremely concerned of using any third party VPN service, free or paid. You are basically trusting your entire internet usage to a single entity, and I think this is way too risky. One alternative is setting up a raspberry-pi at home running pi-hole and OpenVPN. While it is still not risk-free, it is still better than one centralized entity taking everyone's traffic. On the other hand, setting that up is still not absolutely straightforward, but it is getting better.
- MBCook 8y ago
  I agree. “Don’t like being tracked? Just let us watch EVERYTHING you do and we promise to stop people from tracking you.” You’re putting someone in the perfect position to track you far better than anyone else could. You better REALLY trust them.
  - SEJeff 8y ago
    Again, it uses a VPN to route all traffic on the phone through the app, which sends no traffic anywhere outside of your phone (confirmed via my home firewall showing no traffic going out). It uses a VPN to simply route traffic through the app to null route bad destinations. Make sense?

sbhn 8y ago

What, is it legitimate companies selling your data? The fear media told me it was hackers.

Johnny555 8y ago
You must have your head in the sand if you don't see the "fear media" also warning you about legit companies tracking you. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/facebook-privacy-hearings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/facebook-priva... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-07/even-privacy-advocates-are-tracking-you-online https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-07/even-priv... https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-data-than-facebook-try-google-1524398401 https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-d... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2018/05/03/what-the-alleged-facebook-stalker-teaches-us-about-our-online-privacy/#62cb33b8672d https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2018/05/03/what-th...
- sbhn 8y ago
  None of those articles made pole position. Only articles with ‘Hackers’ in the subject line, that’s plural, make pole position when amplifying that people’s personal data is under attack.

jacksmith21006 8y ago

Just hope they let the user chose.

gruez 8y ago
and what do you do when users get strongarmed (app refusing to run, dark patterns, etc.) into "accepting"?
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  Well then define how you make it clear to the user. I worry a bit that we will go too far with things. Some want the benefits of having the data to make user experience better. I am a perfect example of this.

shimfish 8y ago

I'm curious as to how this behaviour is actually detected. I mean are they checking for outgoing network requests that contain something that looks like co-ordinates because presumably that would be trivial to obfuscate. Or is this really just a case of rejecting apps that are asking for location even though the app has no real use for it?

LeoNatan25 8y ago
Apps are required to have an entry in the Info plist for location (both “while in use” and “always”). This is enforced by the kernel. So they are most likely looking there.

grantlmiller 8y ago

Isn't it just as likely that this data is being sent to the app vendor's servers and then off to one or multiple third-parties?

crystaln 8y ago

It's interesting how everyone hates the App Store approval model until they demand it be implemented more strictly.

longtermsec 8y ago

Apps are one risk, but it's an opt-in risk. Telecom companies are also another risk, and much larger one in that, because there is no opt out of location sharing with them. Same with analytics on your telco network traffic.

kvm000 8y ago

Would be nice if there was a more granular option for access to photos which allowed "image only" with no metadata... I assume most people don't realize when they grant photo library access to a cheap filter app that the app can grab the datetime and GPS location for all photos as well, which is a lot of data if they have a phone full with a ton of photos.

MessageLife1122 8y ago

I am glad on reading even just looking at the headline. haha