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For anyone interested, George Orwell's account of his experiences during the civil war, "Homage to Catalonia" is a good english language read on the subject. No

by ian0 8y ago

For anyone interested, George Orwell's account of his experiences during the civil war, "Homage to Catalonia" is a good english language read on the subject. Not an expert, but it seems pretty impartial. And its Orwell so its easy to read.

tanbog 8y ago
Well, Orwell fought with the POUM, who were Socialists but twith Anarchist leanings so I don't think you can really say he was "impartial". Having said that I fully concur with your recommendation of Homage to Catalonia. Amazing book about a pretty amazing time.
- frabbit 8y ago
  The POUM were Trotskyists and most definitely did not have "anarchist leanings". The only commonality they had with the anarchists (who were far more numerous and militarily effective) was that the Communists attacked both of them.
  - ptaipale 8y ago
    Stalinist Communists, controlled by NKVD, attacked them. Trotskyists were Communists too.
  - MichaelMoser123 8y ago
    Not exactly Trotskyist either: Andres Nin the leader of POUM had his differences with Trotsky and they did not have contact after 1935 - so it was something like an independent Communist party. POUM had its differences with Moscow controlled Communists (the third International) - Moscow was for a broad coalition government that would postpone socialist reforms (that's called the 'Popular Front' approach, similar to what was done in France); while POUM was all for pressing on with socialist reforms right during the civil war (mostly within Catalonia). So POUM was more similar to the anarchists in its politics, but the anarchists were much larger movement than the Marxist POUM. In any event POUM was a small local party that did not matter a lot, but its suppression (that went on with the persecution of the Anarchists) in later stages opened rifts within the Spanish Republic. All that happened once the Spanish government came under increasing control of Moscow - that came as a result of international isolation while the Soviet Union remained as the only backer. Left wing politics is all very factional, so it gets complicated. I think the Popular Front approach would have been more productive, but Orwell for example did not think so; in any event it became quite bad once the NKVD came in. https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/spain/spain03.htm https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/spain/spain03...
some_random 8y ago
Great book, but George Orwell is absolutely not impartial. While yeah, he did almost get purged, he still fought quite a bit. If nothing else, his glowing praise of the Republican Militias is, despite his couching, incredibly biased.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >his glowing praise of the Republican Militias is, despite his couching, incredibly biased As opposed to what, lauding Franco?
  - cies 8y ago
    Yups. A real impartial read would just describe the events without favoring any party. A bit like those Nazi documentaries that repeat on Discovery Channel at night in my region. They describe the horrors without any value judgment.
    - aninhumer 8y ago
      There is no such thing as a "real impartial read". Any communication of information will inevitably be limited, and the way that limitation manifests will be influenced by the subjectivity of the person communicating. The documentaries may present the facts they choose to include in a more dispassionate style than other sources, but this should not be confused with objectivity.
      - cies 8y ago
        Sure. But still we talk about impartiality in news. Just give the facts, do not give value judgment (in sharp contrast to Orwell's book). I never said it is 100% objective, they just clearly avoid siding with any party in those documentaries.
        Emma_Goldman 8y ago
        Right, but the criteria used to choose the facts, what the facts are, and how and by who they are to be communicated, are not value-neutral choices.
Synaesthesia 8y ago
One of the best accounts of war I’ve ever read.
georgeecollins 8y ago
I was going to say.. one of my all time favorite books. If you want to know the kinds of experiences that lead a person to write "Politics and the English Language", "Animal Farm", and "1984". It shows the true possibilities for social change and the dangerous forces that can undermine idealism.
hutzlibu 8y ago
Yes, I can highly recommend it as well for an honest review. Orwell did not bend the truth if what he saw did not fit with what he wanted to see .. which is otherwise a very common trait in the whole socialism sector. But yes, he simply saw only parts of the whole picture, but what he saw, he gave an accurate review about.

by ian0 8y ago

tanbog 8y ago

Well, Orwell fought with the POUM, who were Socialists but twith Anarchist leanings so I don't think you can really say he was "impartial". Having said that I fully concur with your recommendation of Homage to Catalonia. Amazing book about a pretty amazing time.

frabbit 8y ago
The POUM were Trotskyists and most definitely did not have "anarchist leanings". The only commonality they had with the anarchists (who were far more numerous and militarily effective) was that the Communists attacked both of them.
- ptaipale 8y ago
  Stalinist Communists, controlled by NKVD, attacked them. Trotskyists were Communists too.
- MichaelMoser123 8y ago
  Not exactly Trotskyist either: Andres Nin the leader of POUM had his differences with Trotsky and they did not have contact after 1935 - so it was something like an independent Communist party. POUM had its differences with Moscow controlled Communists (the third International) - Moscow was for a broad coalition government that would postpone socialist reforms (that's called the 'Popular Front' approach, similar to what was done in France); while POUM was all for pressing on with socialist reforms right during the civil war (mostly within Catalonia). So POUM was more similar to the anarchists in its politics, but the anarchists were much larger movement than the Marxist POUM. In any event POUM was a small local party that did not matter a lot, but its suppression (that went on with the persecution of the Anarchists) in later stages opened rifts within the Spanish Republic. All that happened once the Spanish government came under increasing control of Moscow - that came as a result of international isolation while the Soviet Union remained as the only backer. Left wing politics is all very factional, so it gets complicated. I think the Popular Front approach would have been more productive, but Orwell for example did not think so; in any event it became quite bad once the NKVD came in. https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/spain/spain03.htm https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/spain/spain03...

some_random 8y ago

Great book, but George Orwell is absolutely not impartial. While yeah, he did almost get purged, he still fought quite a bit. If nothing else, his glowing praise of the Republican Militias is, despite his couching, incredibly biased.

coldtea 8y ago
>his glowing praise of the Republican Militias is, despite his couching, incredibly biased As opposed to what, lauding Franco?
- cies 8y ago
  Yups. A real impartial read would just describe the events without favoring any party. A bit like those Nazi documentaries that repeat on Discovery Channel at night in my region. They describe the horrors without any value judgment.
  - aninhumer 8y ago
    There is no such thing as a "real impartial read". Any communication of information will inevitably be limited, and the way that limitation manifests will be influenced by the subjectivity of the person communicating. The documentaries may present the facts they choose to include in a more dispassionate style than other sources, but this should not be confused with objectivity.
    - cies 8y ago
      Sure. But still we talk about impartiality in news. Just give the facts, do not give value judgment (in sharp contrast to Orwell's book). I never said it is 100% objective, they just clearly avoid siding with any party in those documentaries.
      - Emma_Goldman 8y ago
        Right, but the criteria used to choose the facts, what the facts are, and how and by who they are to be communicated, are not value-neutral choices.

Synaesthesia 8y ago

One of the best accounts of war I’ve ever read.

georgeecollins 8y ago

I was going to say.. one of my all time favorite books. If you want to know the kinds of experiences that lead a person to write "Politics and the English Language", "Animal Farm", and "1984". It shows the true possibilities for social change and the dangerous forces that can undermine idealism.

hutzlibu 8y ago

Yes, I can highly recommend it as well for an honest review. Orwell did not bend the truth if what he saw did not fit with what he wanted to see .. which is otherwise a very common trait in the whole socialism sector. But yes, he simply saw only parts of the whole picture, but what he saw, he gave an accurate review about.