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This very typical google. V100 comes out, they don't deploy it in their cloud immediately. Then they launch their tpu cloud. Spend 2 months touting cost/speed i

by ai2323 8y ago

This very typical google. V100 comes out, they don't deploy it in their cloud immediately. Then they launch their tpu cloud. Spend 2 months touting cost/speed in benchmarks. Then a week before io they make v100 available in gce, nearly six months after aws. Then at io they announce tpu3. This is supposed to be nvidia's most captive customer, and now looks like going to be their biggest problem. Would love to see google spend with them and how its changed since they ramped tpu2.

oh-kumudo 8y ago
Lower GPU price for all, I am for it.
- ai2323 8y ago
  For all the google hate, nvidia is too blame as well. Their ceo running around saying 'we saving you money every time you spend 10k on a gpu' is getting old. The should have been far more aggressive price wise with this biz considering the resources of their target customers. Almost every 'choose not to use a gpu' use case being touted by msft/goog etc is about cost. Meanwhile nvda busy tweeting stuff like msft seeing ai app for blind powerd by nvda gpu. Soon micron will be tweeting they powering all ai as well, and then arista...all the way down to the power companies. Watching goog today its not looking good for the competition, by the time all these ml/dl accelerators are commoditized google will have one hell of a moat.
jacksmith21006 8y ago
Spend with them? Who?
- ai2323 8y ago
  Their spend on nvidia gpu's...how it's shifted as they have progressed tpu wise. I think you go back 18 months google was their biggest here.
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    But does it not make sense for Google to remove their dependency on Nvidia? Plus could they do the new text to speech at a competitive price using Nvidia Silicon? Google approach gets you a better result but the computational requirements would be huge compared to the traditional approach. You have to get the compute cost down as far as you can.
boulos 8y ago
Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud (and even on the GCE parts). No conspiracy here, we were simply late to market on the V100 Beta. As many have noted, we also hold a really high reliability bar before going to Beta (“Google’s Beta is like AWS’s GA” though I wouldn’t claim that in all cases) and we’ve be in Alpha for months. If you’d like to be included in Alpha offerings drop us a line. As I’ve said in previous threads: Compute Engine intends to be the best place for computing. That includes the kind of workloads TPUs are tuned for, but it also includes all the stuff that GPUs excel at. That’s not going away, and GCE isn’t favoring one over the other. We sell infrastructure, and we don’t try to (overtly) pick favorites, we let our customers do that.
- lostmsu 8y ago
  > “Google’s Beta is like AWS’s GA” though I wouldn’t claim that in all cases Wow, that's so ... I don't even have a word for it.
- ai2323 8y ago
  Apologies, stand corrected. Conspiracy theories are always more fun:) Guess was just coincidence that after grabbing all this press on GCE v100 finally being available, tpu3 is announced few days later.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jacksmith21006 8y ago
You do not want to be dependent on Nvidia for your own stuff is why Google has to do the TPUs. It is like how they ported to Power for their stuff if needed. Look at the shortage of late with Nvidia. Google does not have to deal with it. But also I suspect they could not do WaveNet without their own silicon as the cost would be prohibitive. Using a NN for speech and competing against traditional approaches and have a competitive price is going to require really efficient silicon.
- shaklee3 8y ago
  What shortage? You can't make statements like that with no basis in reality. The V100 is not suffering from any shortage.
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    "Looking to nab Nvidia's GeForce chips? You need cash and patience GPU shortage equals four-month wait time for buyers" https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/30/nvidia_geforce_chips_crypto_miner_induced_shortage/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/30/nvidia_geforce_chip... But you are missing my point. Google is not dependent on Nvidia. Really does not look like Nvidia could do what they need anyway. Doing their new text to speech on Nvidia I would not expect to have a price point to make viable.
    - shaklee3 8y ago
      So let me get this straight. You are saying Nvidia is having a massive shortage of parts, while ignoring that both AWS and GCP offer GPU instances that you can get any time. Not only that, the article you reference is about Geforce GPUs, which is not a data center GPU. You are comparing apples and oranges. Please show me an article where there's a shortage of Tesla cards.
      - jacksmith21006 8y ago
        It is about being dependent on someone else for something that is critical to you. But really now it is just Nvidia does not have the ability to meet Google's needs. I am not aware of anything from Nvidia that could do 16k cycles through a NN in real-time at a cost that you could roll out at scale. Google priced WaveNet competitively to the old way of doing. You can only do that with a very low cost for computation and the power required which Nvidia could not match with the TPU 1.0 let alone now they have the 3.0.

by ai2323 8y ago

oh-kumudo 8y ago

Lower GPU price for all, I am for it.

ai2323 8y ago
For all the google hate, nvidia is too blame as well. Their ceo running around saying 'we saving you money every time you spend 10k on a gpu' is getting old. The should have been far more aggressive price wise with this biz considering the resources of their target customers. Almost every 'choose not to use a gpu' use case being touted by msft/goog etc is about cost. Meanwhile nvda busy tweeting stuff like msft seeing ai app for blind powerd by nvda gpu. Soon micron will be tweeting they powering all ai as well, and then arista...all the way down to the power companies. Watching goog today its not looking good for the competition, by the time all these ml/dl accelerators are commoditized google will have one hell of a moat.

jacksmith21006 8y ago

Spend with them? Who?

ai2323 8y ago
Their spend on nvidia gpu's...how it's shifted as they have progressed tpu wise. I think you go back 18 months google was their biggest here.
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  But does it not make sense for Google to remove their dependency on Nvidia? Plus could they do the new text to speech at a competitive price using Nvidia Silicon? Google approach gets you a better result but the computational requirements would be huge compared to the traditional approach. You have to get the compute cost down as far as you can.

boulos 8y ago

Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud (and even on the GCE parts). No conspiracy here, we were simply late to market on the V100 Beta. As many have noted, we also hold a really high reliability bar before going to Beta (“Google’s Beta is like AWS’s GA” though I wouldn’t claim that in all cases) and we’ve be in Alpha for months. If you’d like to be included in Alpha offerings drop us a line. As I’ve said in previous threads: Compute Engine intends to be the best place for computing. That includes the kind of workloads TPUs are tuned for, but it also includes all the stuff that GPUs excel at. That’s not going away, and GCE isn’t favoring one over the other. We sell infrastructure, and we don’t try to (overtly) pick favorites, we let our customers do that.

lostmsu 8y ago
> “Google’s Beta is like AWS’s GA” though I wouldn’t claim that in all cases Wow, that's so ... I don't even have a word for it.
ai2323 8y ago
Apologies, stand corrected. Conspiracy theories are always more fun:) Guess was just coincidence that after grabbing all this press on GCE v100 finally being available, tpu3 is announced few days later.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

jacksmith21006 8y ago

You do not want to be dependent on Nvidia for your own stuff is why Google has to do the TPUs. It is like how they ported to Power for their stuff if needed. Look at the shortage of late with Nvidia. Google does not have to deal with it. But also I suspect they could not do WaveNet without their own silicon as the cost would be prohibitive. Using a NN for speech and competing against traditional approaches and have a competitive price is going to require really efficient silicon.

shaklee3 8y ago
What shortage? You can't make statements like that with no basis in reality. The V100 is not suffering from any shortage.
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  "Looking to nab Nvidia's GeForce chips? You need cash and patience GPU shortage equals four-month wait time for buyers" https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/30/nvidia_geforce_chips_crypto_miner_induced_shortage/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/30/nvidia_geforce_chip... But you are missing my point. Google is not dependent on Nvidia. Really does not look like Nvidia could do what they need anyway. Doing their new text to speech on Nvidia I would not expect to have a price point to make viable.
  - shaklee3 8y ago
    So let me get this straight. You are saying Nvidia is having a massive shortage of parts, while ignoring that both AWS and GCP offer GPU instances that you can get any time. Not only that, the article you reference is about Geforce GPUs, which is not a data center GPU. You are comparing apples and oranges. Please show me an article where there's a shortage of Tesla cards.
    - jacksmith21006 8y ago
      It is about being dependent on someone else for something that is critical to you. But really now it is just Nvidia does not have the ability to meet Google's needs. I am not aware of anything from Nvidia that could do 16k cycles through a NN in real-time at a cost that you could roll out at scale. Google priced WaveNet competitively to the old way of doing. You can only do that with a very low cost for computation and the power required which Nvidia could not match with the TPU 1.0 let alone now they have the 3.0.