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MIT Should Not Be Supporting the Saud Monarchy
- austincheney 8y agoThat short article is heavy on opinion and light on substance. It leaves me with the sensation of social justice warrior.
- tathougies 8y agoWhat exactly is wrong with fighting for social justice? If you’re going to resort to name calling at least choose a label that’s actually bad
- UnpossibleJim 8y agoThe problem with it, is that it lacks any and all due process. It's the same process that leads to lynch mobs and witch hunts. Its other names are mob rule, mob justice and vigilantism.
- iron0013 8y agoWasn't aware that "SJWs" were hanging people from trees and burning them at the stake, thanks for the information
- UnpossibleJim 8y agoAntifa... I think that's how it's spelled, anyways. Short for Anti-Fascist. A radical extension of the "SJW" logic, if you will. Any ideology, taken to the extreme, is ridiculous.
- iron0013 8y agoI wasn't aware that antifa was hanging people from trees and burning them at the stake. I myself am anti-fascist, and most people I know are also against fascism--aren't you? However, anyone can easily find many, many, many examples of right-wing extremists in the United States hanging, burning, and committing other atrocities. Hm, weird, it's almost as if both sides are not equivalent, like one is much worse than the other...
- UnpossibleJim 8y agoBeing purposefully obtuse is, as always, charming. I'm sure you liven up any debate and bring new information to light. Thanks so much for helping me see that I was wasting my time with this conversation..... I guess you win?
- iron0013 8y agoPlease don't troll and name-call, we all come to this forum for open and productive debate.
- tathougies 8y agoI mean... no one has a right to due process in media and public perception, only in government dealings. Only a repressive, fascist society would attempt to enforce a guarantee of 'due process' in public perception. I hope that day never comes in America, but given how liberally some people seem to take protection of speech and due process, I worry we may be closer now than ever.
- austincheney 8y agoCould you please be more specific as to your offense? I am not sure of the nature of your criticism.
- iron0013 8y agoWhat you just said does not make sense. Please rephrase and try again.
- austincheney 8y agoThat is basically what I said.
- iron0013 8y agoWhat you just said does not make sense. Please rephrase and try again.
- tathougies 8y agoCalling someone a 'social justice warrior' in order to (presumably) cause insult is like calling someone 'stunningly gorgeous' to offend them.
- austincheney 8y agoI phrased it in such a way to specifically avoid a statement of attack by calling it my personal feeling and further more I did not direct that description at any person but in response to the written article. In this regard I am thinking it is the label that people find offensive rather than the context to which that label is used. Please correct me if I am wrong here. If every use of the term social justice warrior is immediately offensive then I won't use it again.
- rhcom2 8y agoIt's a pejorative. > Social justice warrior (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual who promotes socially progressive views, including feminism, civil rights, and multiculturalism,[1][2] as well as identity politics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior
- Analemma_ 8y agoIf you're not already convinced that the term "social justice warrior" is now devoid of meaning, note this comment. I don't want to support a theocratic regime where homosexuality is punishable by death and criticizing the government or Islam is a criminal offense enforced by secret police, so I'm one of the SJWs now?
- austincheney 8y agoI did not see any such evidence of MIT asking for your, or anybody else's, support though. The article just looked like an opinion calling for a boycott. https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/Avoiding_Trolls.md#social-justice-warrior https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/Avoiding_Tr... > so I'm one of the SJWs now? Please do not try to troll me. The article and these comments are not about you. I am not attacking you (or anybody else).
- iron0013 8y agoPlease do not accuse others of trolling.
- austincheney 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Please review the part of the comment I quoted. It is essentially an ad hominem in rhetorical question form. Attacks in any form are unfortunate. Pointing to and asking for the attack to terminate directly and politely is a generally preferred response, but if this is unwelcome then next time I will immediately flag the communication for moderator review.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoheavy on opinion It's an editorial. That's generally what they are are: Someone's opinion. It is, in fact, an editorial published in the MIT Faculty Newsletter. A hundred years ago, the only people who would have read it would be MIT faculty. But thanks to the internet, now anyone with internet access can read this editorial. If it were a random person on the internet having a cow about what MIT does as if people at MIT should care about their opinion, okay, fine, sure SJW makes sense as an accusation. But it makes no sense to act like the faculty of MIT are up to something questionable for expressing opinions about how MIT should comport itself. Edit: I mean, it's fine if you want to express your opinion that 'Hey, this is not really HN-worthy.' Maybe that's what you meant. It certainly isn't what you said. Though that inevitably leads to someone quoting the guidelines as to what is appropriate to post here and linking to them and blah blah blah.
- dang 8y agoThis breaks the HN guidelines by being ideological flamebait. Nothing good can come of this, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jasim 8y ago1) Why is the Saud family waging a war on Yemen? 2) In case the Saud monarchy falls abruptly, what could happen in the power vacuum, domestically and for the middle-east in general? 3) The Saud family is understood to be more liberal than the general Saudi population and MBS had to supposedly overcome powerful conservatives to start with the (social) liberalization agenda. How true is this, and what are the implications if MBS is deposed?
- Zaheer 8y agoAll of these questions can be answered with some research online. 1) Yemen is a result of Saudi-Iran Proxy war: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-probe-details-fallout-of-proxy-war-in-yemen-between-saudi-coalition-and-iran-/2018/01/11/3e3f9302-f644-11e7-9af7-a50bc3300042_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-probe-details-fallou... 2) There will surely be challenging times but every country that had liberated itself from monarchy has gone through similar struggles. 3) >The Saud family is understood to be more liberal than the general Saudi population I don't have an answer on this but what is well known is that the Saud family partnered with Wahab family to push Wahabbism, since the start of Saudia Arabia. This alliance of faith & state was done to control the people similar to many times in history when faith has been hijacked to recruit supporters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism
- jasim 8y agoGranted we're talking about nations and their peoples and their histories and they are always long, deep, and tangled up and there are no simple truths. I'm aware of the origins of Wahabism through The Arabs (Eugene Rogan). I was looking for individual perspectives than what's easily available online. I've also tried reading up on the animosity between Iran and Saudi, and couldn't find any straight answer.
- cuckcuckspruce 8y agoIran is primarily Shi'a and Saudi Arabia is primarily Sunni.
- ilamont 8y agoThe institute should take a hard look at other forms of support for autocratic regimes. Seven or 8 years ago it happily took $300 million to set up a "Silicon Valley" run by the Russian government, although it has since experienced difficulties keeping faculty engaged (1) and more recently has "not much to show for it aside from a distant, windswept science park." 1. https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/09/15/another-foreign-faculty-member-leaves-russia-s-self-styled-silicon-valley-graduate-school https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/09/15/another-foreign-faculty... 2. https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/09/chill-out-russias-skolkovo-project-attempts-a-re-boot-with-a-new-venture-fund/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/09/chill-out-russias-skolkovo...
- euyyn 8y agoHow does that support Russian's government exactly?
- kifachachaf 8y agoMIT Should Not Be Supporting the USA.
- anilshanbhag 8y agoChange cannot happen overnight, it is a gradual process. Saudi has improved: two major improvements - woman being allowed to drive and opening of the first cinema in 35 years ! I expect more changes to happen over time. The situation in Yemen is bad. However it is not totally one-sided pain inflicted by Saudi Arabia as portrayed in the article. The Houthis are after all well armed militants who were/are trying to overthrow the Yemen government. Some people at MIT have hardline stances which should not be mistaken to be the institute's opinion or the majority opinion. A year ago there was a movement by some to have MIT divest from oil/gas-related companies which failed.
- nafizh 8y agoThat is precisely the kind of reaction Bin Salman is banking on. By taking steps that appeal to western liberals, but in reality, have very little societal consequences in the context of Saudi, he is putting a blanket cover on the massive human rights abuse/arbitrary detentions in Saudi, and the war crimes in Yemen. Houthis being armed militant does not excuse the blockade of essential supplies that is leading to the death of thousands of children.
- dogma1138 8y agoThe problem is that there is no organic better alternative to replace them. Yemen is a complicated situation with a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran neither of them are particularly bastions of human rights or values. Unlike Iraq there isn’t a substantial enough Shi’a population in Saudi Arabia to serve as an Iranian proxy to fill the void. The other two major Sunni powers in the region are AQAP and ISIS both of them are far worse than the Saud family could and would ever be. Pure and absolute moral objectivism is just as bad as pure moral relativism. While you can assert that we should never support such regimes, let them fall or even actively push for a regime change on pure moral grounds you aren’t the one that needs to deal with the fallout on the ground for years and decades to come. Regardless of how bad the situation in Saudi Arabia is now it can always get worse, much worse and I don’t think that you should advocate for a social experiment you wont be willing to participate in.
- wavefunction 8y ago$750,000 seems cheap for all that access to faculty and IP
- crb002 8y agoAnd let's not forget the beheadings of "white ISIS". https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=saudi+beheadings https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=saudi+beheadings
- squozzer 8y agoI think before MIT or anyone else decides to support or oppose any regime, they should ask themselves, "What are the reasonable alternatives?" But first, an aside - I wish I could remember the name of the YouTube video that described the UK as a theocracy - because the Queen is also the "pope" of the Church of England. A lot of people - MIT and myself included - fall into the trap of comparing places like Saudi to a theoretical perfect state which we'll call Utopia. The pitfalls of such comparisons I leave as an exercise to the reader. But let's talk about MIT's overall contribution to the advancement of human rights. How many of their grads have gone on to work for the NSA? How many of their Chinese students now find employ with the Chinese government? How many government contracts for intrusive surveillance or weapons of mass destruction has MIT taken over the years? Answer: Classified. But probably a lot.
- abhga55 8y agoI find this post to be deeply anti Semitic.