7 ms·

Sounds shocking... but having worked as a contractor for a goodly portion of my career, I'd argue that something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least on

by lsc 8y ago

Sounds shocking... but having worked as a contractor for a goodly portion of my career, I'd argue that something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least one employee to vouch for you. Really, every place I've worked, you could say this happens every month; almost always I've needed an employee to sign off on my hours, either the person I report to or the person they report to. I always took that as a vote of confidence, personally. (I mean, obviously, even if I get fired, I expect to get paid for hours worked, but point being, the guy just signed off on spending $15k-$20K, depending on the body shop cut, for a month of my work, I'd assume that would trigger at least a few minutes of "what did Luke do for me this month?" and a phone call letting me know not to come in Monday if the answer was "Not much".)

analog31 8y ago
I'm a regular employee, and I don't see it being any different. Figuratively speaking, my boss has to sign my paycheck every two weeks. If they don't like me, they can fire me.
- lsc 8y ago
  see, I think there is a big cultural difference. Like, I always had that attitude as an employee, but I think that as an employee, it holds me back. I think the key is that as an employee, you are expected to act in the interest of the company in ways that are different from what you are expected to do as a contractor. My perception and experience is that as a contractor, I'm supposed to do what you tell me to do. If you tell me to do something stupid, I'm supposed to tell you it's stupid, and to explain why, but if you say do it anyhow, well, that's my job. It has more to do with task-based work. My perception is that as an employee you are expected more to act in the best interest of the company. I personally have a hard time seeing the difference between the two, because I'm not omniscient, I am sometimes wrong, and if the boss has heard my arguments for why the way they asked me to do a thing is stupid and still wants me to do it that way, well, maybe the boss knows something I don't know, right? The company, by making them the boss, has said that the company thinks the boss knows more than I do, so maybe the right thing to do is to go along with it? (I'm mostly talking of "the right way to do it" in the sense of "the most efficient or correct way to do it" - I think of ethical dilemmas in a different sort of way.)
  - analog31 8y ago
    I tend to think of myself as a professional first, and employee second. The distinction between employee and contractor becomes a matter of accounting and tax law. >>> The company, by making them the boss, has said that the company thinks the boss knows more than I do, so maybe the right thing to do is to go along with it? I don't assume that for one minute. I work in a job where there is literally nobody else in the company with my expertise.
    - lsc 8y ago
      >I don't assume that for one minute. I work in a job where there is literally nobody else in the company with my expertise. So, I've been there, and... the thing that makes me chuckle is that a few years later, in part because I thought the boss was such an idiot, I started my own company with my own employees. The funny thing was, I found myself, at times, getting into the same sort of arguments with my employee, only on the other side. There are... other factors in play, when you are looking at things from a organizational or business perspective.
      - analog31 8y ago
        Indeed, and I run my own business on the side. I've also been in management. I have a very close relationship with many of the managers, so they are pretty open with me about their thought processes and the issues that they face. And they face the same arguments with the managers above them, and so forth... "So, naturalists observe a flea..."
  - bitwize 8y ago
    > My perception is that as an employee you are expected more to act in the best interest of the company. As an employee, if you object to something your boss is really on board with, you can expect to be fired. It is, in general, a career limiting move to tell anyone above you that what they're asking you to do is stupid. Maybe if you're a God-tier management consultant, you can propose changes and expect to have them implemented. As a regular employee or contractor schlub, no. If you want to keep your job, adopt their perspective. (Illegal actions are another issue. While it's illegal in many jurisdictions to fire a whistleblower, in practice you're still risking your job to blow the whistle. Not that you shouldn't do it.)
tzs 8y ago
> Sounds shocking... but having worked as a contractor for a goodly portion of my career, I'd argue that something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least one employee to vouch for you. That sounds reasonable, although I could see a need for some exceptions. For example, I could see a company using a contractor for its front end web development and another contractor for running the web server. The first contractor would be working with employees, such as sales and marketing that decide what is supposed to go on the site, and they could vouch for that contractor. The second contractor, the one running the web server, could easily end up only interacting with the front end web contractor.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bch 8y ago
  The second contractor would surely have a hiring manager that could explain what’s what to upper management.
  - mifreewil 8y ago
    > would surely have a hiring manager that could explain... This is a big assumption
    - bch 8y ago
      Is it? Seems plain to me, but 1) I honestly don’t know what the org structure is at Tesla 2) assuming there are hiring managers, if they’re hiring people they wouldn’t vouch for (to boost their dept size (again not knowing the org chart)), then managers are gaming Tesla, and that’s another problem
      - KajMagnus 8y ago
        Maybe the person who hired the web server admin, has since left to work with something else. And there's a new boss / hiring manager, who is a bit clueless. I suppose this scenario is unlikely to happen, but still, in a really large company, then, low risk, times many many people = maybe shouldn't be ignored.
walshemj 8y ago
I don't think this is individual IT/DEV self employed contractors here.
WalterSear 8y ago
> I'd argue that something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least one employee to vouch for you. The corollary to that is that if you get to the point where you need to check on the vouchsafety of all your contractors - en masse - something is seriously wrong with your company.
- p1esk 8y ago
  Something is seriously wrong with most large companies, and most of them simply ignore that. Good to see Tesla being different in that regard.
  - rhino369 8y ago
    I dunno, GM and Ford build a fuck-ton more cars and have better build quality (which is shitty by int'l standards). Seems like Teslas's problem is bigger.
    - Retric 8y ago
      They have been building basically the same cars for far longer so that does not say much. Tesla is attacking too many different problems at the same time IMO. Just building batteries at scale and low cost is on it's own a huge undertaking. Now add cars, self driving systems, charging network, home battery and solar etc. It's over valued as a pure car company, but the other lines could also be huge companies on their own.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Having owned both a GM and a Tesla, I'm amused by the idea that GM's build quality is better. I actually liked my GM a lot, but quality was lacking to say the least.
      - ConcernedCoder 8y ago
        year make and model? I only ask, because honestly, I bought ( ordered and customized online really ) a new 2015 GMC Canyon and I love this truck like I've never loved another vehicle in my lifetime... and literally NOTHING has gone wrong with it, not even a loose screw... or burnt-out light bulb...
LifeLiverTransp 8y ago
We are not- fired usually though. Ones contract is simply not renewed or ended ahead of time. I always thought of us contractors as stateless mercenaries, and you cant expatriat (aka fire) a stateless mercenary. Also regarding the useless middle management Elon mentions- thats the beauty of sub-contracting. The poor fool at the end of the chain usually has to do the managment work and projekt-management too.
matchagaucho 8y ago
Elon is addressing the "barnacle upon barnacle" problem with Contractors. Sure, the Contractor on the front lines actually doing work may be "liked". It's the middle manager/Contractor's boss sitting in an office 1,000 miles away that Elon wants to get rid of. Employees can apparently hire/manage Contractors directly, but Contractors can't outsource the work they were hired to do.
mathgenius 8y ago
> something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least one employee to vouch for you. It's not just a "vouch", the language used is: "a Tesla employee putting their reputation on the line." It's like the tesla-mafia, watch out or cousin Elon is coming for ya!
- Trundle 8y ago
  Putting your reputation on the line is exactly what vouching is.

by lsc 8y ago

analog31 8y ago

I'm a regular employee, and I don't see it being any different. Figuratively speaking, my boss has to sign my paycheck every two weeks. If they don't like me, they can fire me.

lsc 8y ago
see, I think there is a big cultural difference. Like, I always had that attitude as an employee, but I think that as an employee, it holds me back. I think the key is that as an employee, you are expected to act in the interest of the company in ways that are different from what you are expected to do as a contractor. My perception and experience is that as a contractor, I'm supposed to do what you tell me to do. If you tell me to do something stupid, I'm supposed to tell you it's stupid, and to explain why, but if you say do it anyhow, well, that's my job. It has more to do with task-based work. My perception is that as an employee you are expected more to act in the best interest of the company. I personally have a hard time seeing the difference between the two, because I'm not omniscient, I am sometimes wrong, and if the boss has heard my arguments for why the way they asked me to do a thing is stupid and still wants me to do it that way, well, maybe the boss knows something I don't know, right? The company, by making them the boss, has said that the company thinks the boss knows more than I do, so maybe the right thing to do is to go along with it? (I'm mostly talking of "the right way to do it" in the sense of "the most efficient or correct way to do it" - I think of ethical dilemmas in a different sort of way.)
- analog31 8y ago
  I tend to think of myself as a professional first, and employee second. The distinction between employee and contractor becomes a matter of accounting and tax law. >>> The company, by making them the boss, has said that the company thinks the boss knows more than I do, so maybe the right thing to do is to go along with it? I don't assume that for one minute. I work in a job where there is literally nobody else in the company with my expertise.
  - lsc 8y ago
    >I don't assume that for one minute. I work in a job where there is literally nobody else in the company with my expertise. So, I've been there, and... the thing that makes me chuckle is that a few years later, in part because I thought the boss was such an idiot, I started my own company with my own employees. The funny thing was, I found myself, at times, getting into the same sort of arguments with my employee, only on the other side. There are... other factors in play, when you are looking at things from a organizational or business perspective.
    - analog31 8y ago
      Indeed, and I run my own business on the side. I've also been in management. I have a very close relationship with many of the managers, so they are pretty open with me about their thought processes and the issues that they face. And they face the same arguments with the managers above them, and so forth... "So, naturalists observe a flea..."
- bitwize 8y ago
  > My perception is that as an employee you are expected more to act in the best interest of the company. As an employee, if you object to something your boss is really on board with, you can expect to be fired. It is, in general, a career limiting move to tell anyone above you that what they're asking you to do is stupid. Maybe if you're a God-tier management consultant, you can propose changes and expect to have them implemented. As a regular employee or contractor schlub, no. If you want to keep your job, adopt their perspective. (Illegal actions are another issue. While it's illegal in many jurisdictions to fire a whistleblower, in practice you're still risking your job to blow the whistle. Not that you shouldn't do it.)

tzs 8y ago

> Sounds shocking... but having worked as a contractor for a goodly portion of my career, I'd argue that something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least one employee to vouch for you. That sounds reasonable, although I could see a need for some exceptions. For example, I could see a company using a contractor for its front end web development and another contractor for running the web server. The first contractor would be working with employees, such as sales and marketing that decide what is supposed to go on the site, and they could vouch for that contractor. The second contractor, the one running the web server, could easily end up only interacting with the front end web contractor.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bch 8y ago
The second contractor would surely have a hiring manager that could explain what’s what to upper management.
- mifreewil 8y ago
  > would surely have a hiring manager that could explain... This is a big assumption
  - bch 8y ago
    Is it? Seems plain to me, but 1) I honestly don’t know what the org structure is at Tesla 2) assuming there are hiring managers, if they’re hiring people they wouldn’t vouch for (to boost their dept size (again not knowing the org chart)), then managers are gaming Tesla, and that’s another problem
    - KajMagnus 8y ago
      Maybe the person who hired the web server admin, has since left to work with something else. And there's a new boss / hiring manager, who is a bit clueless. I suppose this scenario is unlikely to happen, but still, in a really large company, then, low risk, times many many people = maybe shouldn't be ignored.

walshemj 8y ago

I don't think this is individual IT/DEV self employed contractors here.

WalterSear 8y ago

> I'd argue that something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least one employee to vouch for you. The corollary to that is that if you get to the point where you need to check on the vouchsafety of all your contractors - en masse - something is seriously wrong with your company.

p1esk 8y ago
Something is seriously wrong with most large companies, and most of them simply ignore that. Good to see Tesla being different in that regard.
- rhino369 8y ago
  I dunno, GM and Ford build a fuck-ton more cars and have better build quality (which is shitty by int'l standards). Seems like Teslas's problem is bigger.
  - Retric 8y ago
    They have been building basically the same cars for far longer so that does not say much. Tesla is attacking too many different problems at the same time IMO. Just building batteries at scale and low cost is on it's own a huge undertaking. Now add cars, self driving systems, charging network, home battery and solar etc. It's over valued as a pure car company, but the other lines could also be huge companies on their own.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Having owned both a GM and a Tesla, I'm amused by the idea that GM's build quality is better. I actually liked my GM a lot, but quality was lacking to say the least.
    - ConcernedCoder 8y ago
      year make and model? I only ask, because honestly, I bought ( ordered and customized online really ) a new 2015 GMC Canyon and I love this truck like I've never loved another vehicle in my lifetime... and literally NOTHING has gone wrong with it, not even a loose screw... or burnt-out light bulb...

LifeLiverTransp 8y ago

We are not- fired usually though. Ones contract is simply not renewed or ended ahead of time. I always thought of us contractors as stateless mercenaries, and you cant expatriat (aka fire) a stateless mercenary. Also regarding the useless middle management Elon mentions- thats the beauty of sub-contracting. The poor fool at the end of the chain usually has to do the managment work and projekt-management too.

matchagaucho 8y ago

Elon is addressing the "barnacle upon barnacle" problem with Contractors. Sure, the Contractor on the front lines actually doing work may be "liked". It's the middle manager/Contractor's boss sitting in an office 1,000 miles away that Elon wants to get rid of. Employees can apparently hire/manage Contractors directly, but Contractors can't outsource the work they were hired to do.

mathgenius 8y ago

> something is seriously wrong if you can't get at least one employee to vouch for you. It's not just a "vouch", the language used is: "a Tesla employee putting their reputation on the line." It's like the tesla-mafia, watch out or cousin Elon is coming for ya!

Trundle 8y ago
Putting your reputation on the line is exactly what vouching is.