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Jordan Peterson has said similar along the lines of "we are all capable of becoming a guard at a Nazi concentration camp".

Dylan16807 8y ago
That's largely a different issue, isn't it? The excitement of war isn't involved in being a prison guard.
- fapjacks 8y ago
  Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand around at a checkpoint for twelve hours a day, but even the gunners have to go to the motor pool to PMCS the vehicles every once in a while. Perhaps the specific, historical role of "concentration camp guard" was a job fulfilled by a specific section of the SS, but the underlying point remains. They were not any less human than you are. This makes people uncomfortable, so they don't like to agree with it, instead using some other factor in their denial (e.g. "They were psychopaths, I am not"). But they were the same animal that you are. The same animal your children and grandchildren are. We like to think highly of ourselves, but it's a grave mistake to believe that you (personally) are not capable of those things. You absolutely are. You are just taking completely for granted that you've won the most amazing lottery in the history of the universe: The gift of a violence-free life in which you've never been pushed to the point of doing those things.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    > Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand aroun Few people sign the dotted line for what's described in the article either, it's something that happens after they get there, and doesn't happen to a guard in the middle of controlled territory. > They were not any less human than you are. But for completely different reasons than the thrill of violence and war-fighting.
    - fapjacks 8y ago
      The military is a huge community of people in the United States -- about two million people -- and we can't talk in any other sense than the general one. But my experience directly contradicts your first assertion. Were you in the military? It would be useful to tell us about your experience. Because I would say most people join combat arms specifically for what's described in the article. Nobody joins the infantry for any other reason (or perhaps a few with a family tradition or something). Even then, I never met a soldier in almost fourteen years that joined for the minutiae of guard duty or peeling potatoes or mopping floors. Combat, "adventure", college money, steady paycheck, service to country, family tradition, getting the hell out of town. Those are the big reasons people join. I think you're still trying to put the Nazi SS concentration camp guard into a category of his own -- which is what most "normal" people want to do, to sort of implicitly deny that they could ever do such a thing. And I'm not sure how else I can address this denial other than with what's already been written, except to say that you don't know what you're capable of if you think that you or your family members or your friends couldn't ever be a party to these kinds of things. People are animals and products of their environment. Add a layer of abstraction, and you are ever bit as dangerous as the Nazis you've read about. This may seem astonishing and shocking, but it's true. Hitler was a human being. Genghis Khan was a human being. There will be another person like this in the future, and perhaps it will shock you to learn that they, too, will be a human being.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        > Because I would say most people join combat arms specifically for what's described in the article. Interesting, because the article strongly implies that it's strongly something you find on the battlefield, not go there for it. >I think you're still trying to put the Nazi SS concentration camp guard into a category of his own -- which is what most "normal" people want to do, to sort of implicitly deny that they could ever do such a thing. Why do you think that when I explicitly agreed with you? I'm not trying to deny it at all. I'm saying it's not what the article is about.
        fapjacks 8y ago

Dylan16807 8y ago

That's largely a different issue, isn't it? The excitement of war isn't involved in being a prison guard.

fapjacks 8y ago
Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand around at a checkpoint for twelve hours a day, but even the gunners have to go to the motor pool to PMCS the vehicles every once in a while. Perhaps the specific, historical role of "concentration camp guard" was a job fulfilled by a specific section of the SS, but the underlying point remains. They were not any less human than you are. This makes people uncomfortable, so they don't like to agree with it, instead using some other factor in their denial (e.g. "They were psychopaths, I am not"). But they were the same animal that you are. The same animal your children and grandchildren are. We like to think highly of ourselves, but it's a grave mistake to believe that you (personally) are not capable of those things. You absolutely are. You are just taking completely for granted that you've won the most amazing lottery in the history of the universe: The gift of a violence-free life in which you've never been pushed to the point of doing those things.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  > Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand aroun Few people sign the dotted line for what's described in the article either, it's something that happens after they get there, and doesn't happen to a guard in the middle of controlled territory. > They were not any less human than you are. But for completely different reasons than the thrill of violence and war-fighting.
  - fapjacks 8y ago
    The military is a huge community of people in the United States -- about two million people -- and we can't talk in any other sense than the general one. But my experience directly contradicts your first assertion. Were you in the military? It would be useful to tell us about your experience. Because I would say most people join combat arms specifically for what's described in the article. Nobody joins the infantry for any other reason (or perhaps a few with a family tradition or something). Even then, I never met a soldier in almost fourteen years that joined for the minutiae of guard duty or peeling potatoes or mopping floors. Combat, "adventure", college money, steady paycheck, service to country, family tradition, getting the hell out of town. Those are the big reasons people join. I think you're still trying to put the Nazi SS concentration camp guard into a category of his own -- which is what most "normal" people want to do, to sort of implicitly deny that they could ever do such a thing. And I'm not sure how else I can address this denial other than with what's already been written, except to say that you don't know what you're capable of if you think that you or your family members or your friends couldn't ever be a party to these kinds of things. People are animals and products of their environment. Add a layer of abstraction, and you are ever bit as dangerous as the Nazis you've read about. This may seem astonishing and shocking, but it's true. Hitler was a human being. Genghis Khan was a human being. There will be another person like this in the future, and perhaps it will shock you to learn that they, too, will be a human being.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      > Because I would say most people join combat arms specifically for what's described in the article. Interesting, because the article strongly implies that it's strongly something you find on the battlefield, not go there for it. >I think you're still trying to put the Nazi SS concentration camp guard into a category of his own -- which is what most "normal" people want to do, to sort of implicitly deny that they could ever do such a thing. Why do you think that when I explicitly agreed with you? I'm not trying to deny it at all. I'm saying it's not what the article is about.
      - fapjacks 8y ago