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I was in the infantry for over a decade. I joined before 9/11, but I did reenlist some years afterward, and I deployed a bunch, and fought many times. The thing

I was in the infantry for over a decade. I joined before 9/11, but I did reenlist some years afterward, and I deployed a bunch, and fought many times. The thing about the article is that he says right there in the first couple paragraphs... Nobody that hasn't been there will understand the core message here. Worse, it's not socially palatable to embrace your innate human violence, despite it being such an intrinsic biological function of survival. And so even if some people might understand something of what this guy is talking about, they'd never admit it openly, and generally the most appropriate response our culture expects is some kind of pearl-clutching. So that's what people do. Even if they're genuinely curious and want to understand. Even if they do understand this universal truth to some degree. The one thing I discovered that surprised me the most when I joined was how normal everybody was. Soldiers are people, too. Sure, there are psychos and shitheads and scumbags, just like any community. But we were all born on planet Earth. What I mean to say is this: Violence is built into every human being. Or as one of my favorite quotes of Captain Picard goes, "The seed of violence is within each of us". When I joined the army, I realized the most dangerous thing that could happen is for regular people to think that they're not capable of the things they read in the news.

w_t_payne 8y ago
Thank you for saying this. Thank you.
agumonkey 8y ago
About violence: I often feel that there's an "art" or a skill to master violence. As you say it's incarnation of survival; but emotionally and socially too. As a guy who naturally submits peacefully even if I feel aggressed. At some point I had enough and started to be able to embody my internal violent reaction. Not as an act but as a communication device. You're pushing me, you're about to get pushed, you can read it on my face, my tone, my posture / body language. If you didn't mean it then fine, let's keep it at that, apologies are welcome. That's something that most people can't really learn and get stepped on by others. (the recent woman movement displayed part of that, they stood silent, now they stopped doing so). Society tries to tame violence, all good, but by supressing it we're not really improving things, we need people to master it in a way. ps: a few years back some guy wrote a piece about why he loved war; title being counter intuitive, you'd expect a violent idiot but it was not. His point is that war is mentally easier than society, where every body lies, and confusion is normal. In war he said things become binary, friend or ennemy, inaction = death, decision = life. I found it very interesting.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  "In war he said things become binary, friend or ennemy, inaction = death, decision = life. " Well ... not in every war. Also mentioned in the article, when you face guerilla and not a clearly marked enemy, things get messy. Btw. the most effective war tactics are to create confusion in the enemy, that they don't know anymore where they are and where their friends are and how many enemys etc. Also people struggled a lot when they fough in a war they don't believe in. But even then, you are right, things are simple when you are with your comrades and under fire.
  - ataturk 8y ago
    But is that what we really aspire to as human beings? Things being simple? Isn't that just a cop out? The uncomfortable nature of a low IQ individual? Things being all black and white are historically very unpleasant. And war is destructive and stupid, especially in the 21st century. So while I understand our brutal nature, I also realize we have to rise above it, be smarter, find better outlets, and realize that everything in the universe is nuanced and be okay with that.
- klenwell 8y ago
  Art or skill is an interesting way to look at it. There are a couple somewhat opposing social skills that seem to make like easier, or more bearable, for those who possess them. One is the ability to schmooze people, or even just remember their names and faces, easily. The other is what you describe: not taking shit from others. But in the more artful way you described. I still think being a schmoozer a more useful superpower. But being able to signal that pushing you will be more trouble than it's worth seems to help avoid trouble. I often think about the violent climax of Do the Right Thing. There's the melee in the pizza parlor which ends with the police killing Radio Raheem. Then, as things seem to be calming down, Spike Lee's character, who works at the parlor, picks up a trash can and throws it through the parlor's window. It leads to a full-scale riot. The first time I watched the film, I was a bit puzzled by his action and even put off by it. Now I feel like it is the right thing to do. For the reason you described here: not as an act, not even as an act of catharsis which is how I expect it often gets read. But as a communication device. As an argument on behalf of violent resistance.
drdeadringer 8y ago
Jordan Peterson has said similar along the lines of "we are all capable of becoming a guard at a Nazi concentration camp".
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  That's largely a different issue, isn't it? The excitement of war isn't involved in being a prison guard.
  - fapjacks 8y ago
    Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand around at a checkpoint for twelve hours a day, but even the gunners have to go to the motor pool to PMCS the vehicles every once in a while. Perhaps the specific, historical role of "concentration camp guard" was a job fulfilled by a specific section of the SS, but the underlying point remains. They were not any less human than you are. This makes people uncomfortable, so they don't like to agree with it, instead using some other factor in their denial (e.g. "They were psychopaths, I am not"). But they were the same animal that you are. The same animal your children and grandchildren are. We like to think highly of ourselves, but it's a grave mistake to believe that you (personally) are not capable of those things. You absolutely are. You are just taking completely for granted that you've won the most amazing lottery in the history of the universe: The gift of a violence-free life in which you've never been pushed to the point of doing those things.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      > Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand aroun Few people sign the dotted line for what's described in the article either, it's something that happens after they get there, and doesn't happen to a guard in the middle of controlled territory. > They were not any less human than you are. But for completely different reasons than the thrill of violence and war-fighting.
      - fapjacks 8y ago

w_t_payne 8y ago

Thank you for saying this. Thank you.

agumonkey 8y ago

About violence: I often feel that there's an "art" or a skill to master violence. As you say it's incarnation of survival; but emotionally and socially too. As a guy who naturally submits peacefully even if I feel aggressed. At some point I had enough and started to be able to embody my internal violent reaction. Not as an act but as a communication device. You're pushing me, you're about to get pushed, you can read it on my face, my tone, my posture / body language. If you didn't mean it then fine, let's keep it at that, apologies are welcome. That's something that most people can't really learn and get stepped on by others. (the recent woman movement displayed part of that, they stood silent, now they stopped doing so). Society tries to tame violence, all good, but by supressing it we're not really improving things, we need people to master it in a way. ps: a few years back some guy wrote a piece about why he loved war; title being counter intuitive, you'd expect a violent idiot but it was not. His point is that war is mentally easier than society, where every body lies, and confusion is normal. In war he said things become binary, friend or ennemy, inaction = death, decision = life. I found it very interesting.

hutzlibu 8y ago
"In war he said things become binary, friend or ennemy, inaction = death, decision = life. " Well ... not in every war. Also mentioned in the article, when you face guerilla and not a clearly marked enemy, things get messy. Btw. the most effective war tactics are to create confusion in the enemy, that they don't know anymore where they are and where their friends are and how many enemys etc. Also people struggled a lot when they fough in a war they don't believe in. But even then, you are right, things are simple when you are with your comrades and under fire.
- ataturk 8y ago
  But is that what we really aspire to as human beings? Things being simple? Isn't that just a cop out? The uncomfortable nature of a low IQ individual? Things being all black and white are historically very unpleasant. And war is destructive and stupid, especially in the 21st century. So while I understand our brutal nature, I also realize we have to rise above it, be smarter, find better outlets, and realize that everything in the universe is nuanced and be okay with that.
klenwell 8y ago
Art or skill is an interesting way to look at it. There are a couple somewhat opposing social skills that seem to make like easier, or more bearable, for those who possess them. One is the ability to schmooze people, or even just remember their names and faces, easily. The other is what you describe: not taking shit from others. But in the more artful way you described. I still think being a schmoozer a more useful superpower. But being able to signal that pushing you will be more trouble than it's worth seems to help avoid trouble. I often think about the violent climax of Do the Right Thing. There's the melee in the pizza parlor which ends with the police killing Radio Raheem. Then, as things seem to be calming down, Spike Lee's character, who works at the parlor, picks up a trash can and throws it through the parlor's window. It leads to a full-scale riot. The first time I watched the film, I was a bit puzzled by his action and even put off by it. Now I feel like it is the right thing to do. For the reason you described here: not as an act, not even as an act of catharsis which is how I expect it often gets read. But as a communication device. As an argument on behalf of violent resistance.

drdeadringer 8y ago

Jordan Peterson has said similar along the lines of "we are all capable of becoming a guard at a Nazi concentration camp".

Dylan16807 8y ago
That's largely a different issue, isn't it? The excitement of war isn't involved in being a prison guard.
- fapjacks 8y ago
  Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand around at a checkpoint for twelve hours a day, but even the gunners have to go to the motor pool to PMCS the vehicles every once in a while. Perhaps the specific, historical role of "concentration camp guard" was a job fulfilled by a specific section of the SS, but the underlying point remains. They were not any less human than you are. This makes people uncomfortable, so they don't like to agree with it, instead using some other factor in their denial (e.g. "They were psychopaths, I am not"). But they were the same animal that you are. The same animal your children and grandchildren are. We like to think highly of ourselves, but it's a grave mistake to believe that you (personally) are not capable of those things. You absolutely are. You are just taking completely for granted that you've won the most amazing lottery in the history of the universe: The gift of a violence-free life in which you've never been pushed to the point of doing those things.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    > Nobody signs the dotted line to sit in a tower or stand aroun Few people sign the dotted line for what's described in the article either, it's something that happens after they get there, and doesn't happen to a guard in the middle of controlled territory. > They were not any less human than you are. But for completely different reasons than the thrill of violence and war-fighting.
    - fapjacks 8y ago