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Debtors in China Shamed on Highway Billboard Featuring Their Faces and Names
- anvandare 8y agoThe Master said: "If the people be led by laws, and uniformity sought to be given them by punishments, they will try to avoid the punishment, but have no sense of shame. If they be led by virtue, and uniformity sought to be given them by the rules of propriety, they will have the sense of shame, and moreover will become good." - Analects of Confucius, book II
- bitL 8y agoI am glad western civilization invented internal guilt instead of external shame.
- wu-ikkyu 8y agoExternal shame is quite prevalent in western civilization, especially with regards to sexuality.
- bitL 8y agoShame is the default; society evolved past "appearance", "crab mentality", "averageness", "complacency", "argument from authority" and provided a consistent framework allowing a single individual to stand against the whole society based on internal moral grounds.
- HarryHirsch 8y agoInternal guilt doesn't work with sociopaths and companies.
- bitL 8y agoI consider them as hackers; they simply hacked societal rules for their benefit, silently observing what worked and what didn't. Permanent surveillance is one of major threats to them, so that's one of the reasons they try to get to the top of tech companies, to be the ruling technocrats instead of tracked majority. We don't have much time to stop them.
- isostatic 8y agoIt doesn't work for many people who think 'there's no victim', or 'the victim can afford it' Lets say you board a train at an unmanned station with no ticket machine. Nobody checks your ticket. You then get out at a manned station, but can just walk off. Do you buy a ticket? Many who don't will think "I don't need to", not "I just broke the law" or "I just committed a crime" How about you instead also get off at an unmanned station. How many people will seek out a way to pay their fare? You don't have to be a sociopath to not feel guilty.
- ewrcoffee 8y agoThis is mostly lost in translation. The original quote has nothing to do with external shame.
- rajacombinator 8y agoWow ... if you scroll down (on mobile) and keep reading the articles there, it’s just an endless list of “really bad stuff happening in China.” To the extent that I had to look up whether SCMP is some kind of American propaganda outfit. And ... from what I can tell it seems to be heavily influenced by the Chinese govt. Can someone with more insight offer a quick rundown of how SCMP fits into Chinese media?
- b6 8y ago> it’s just an endless list of “really bad stuff happening in China.” It's not necessarily inaccurate. I lived in China for a few years and still try to keep up with news about China, and it really seems to me like one worrisome thing after another.
- Bucephalus355 8y agoSCMP is a prestigious newspaper and the “newspaper of record” for Hong Kong. However, recently it was bought out by Alibaba, which is of course a Chinese company. The articles still don’t seem that much pro-Chinese, however this does have some sinister overtones for the future, and fits in well with the Chinese strategy of steady expansion / soft subtle influence of foreign govs and institutes.
- philsnow 8y agoas long as they keep publishing nominally critical articles, they can also pick and choose among the available news stories and over time start burying the worst and even becoming a propaganda arm. "look even the SCMP says things are getting better, and they're the critical ones"
- brisance 8y agoSCMP has hired a few former Straits Times journalists with an ax to grind with Singapore, and the articles they churn out have a decidedly anti-Singapore, pro-China bias. The messaging became more strident ever since it got bought by Alibaba.
- yorwba 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- moltar 8y agoShaming works. In Ontario, Canada DUI offenders must install a Ignition Interlock Program. Which is basically a breathalyzer that the driver must blow in to start the car. And if that is not shameful enough, there’s another shameful add-on: an red/amber light the offender must install on the front bumper, dead center. The light activates if you fail the the test after you were driving for a bit. But the light doesn’t need to be turned on to shame. It’s very obvious that it’s there, even when it’s off.
- John_KZ 8y agoBut this is done through court orders and a due process, correct? On repeated offenders, for the benefit of themselves too? What's described in the article isn't the same. You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will. You also shouldn't ostracize those people from society. If they committed a crime, enforce the punishment. Is it a fine? Jail time? Withholding a portion future wages? Do so. Shaming has no place in modern society. The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. How are they going to earn money and repay their debts if they are denied transportation (amongst "many" other things)? And finally, shouldn't we be shaming the financial institution for loaning money to individuals without any legal guarantees and no collateral? Aren't they the ones that should manage this risk? Aren't they the ones reaping benefits for this? This is a very dangerous game to play. And I certainly don't like bunching up those who owe millions and can afford to pay back, and those who owe hundreds and are probably living in poverty. Keep the shaming for public figures, not private individuals.
- rectang 8y agoThe main benefit of shaming is to satisfy the savage craving in those witnessing the shaming to feel morally superior to the humiliated party. In that sense, it "works". Other citizens see the shamed party and feel security knowing that there is someone lower than them in the social hierarchy. "It is not enough to win -- others must lose." When rehabilitation or deterrence is the actual rather than the ostensible goal, more effective methods will be chosen.
- onetimemanytime 8y agodoes anyone know what's the average or range of interest rates in China? Looks like banks are getting help from the state to collect. Help, well above and beyond traditional court /sheriff duties.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoThis is at least better than the revenge porn shaming scheme (“naked loan”) that went around a few years ago. https://medium.com/@arcbering/naked-loan-a-loan-for-porn-scheme-went-viral-in-china-e00b667a468c https://medium.com/@arcbering/naked-loan-a-loan-for-porn-sch... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161031/10125635924/chinese-innovation-nude-photo-loan-platform-adds-uber-style-debt-collectors-feature.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161031/10125635924/chine... https://www.whatsonweibo.com/nude-pics-naked-loan-controversial-online-loaning-china/ https://www.whatsonweibo.com/nude-pics-naked-loan-controvers...
- jacquesm 8y agoWow, that's bad. And judging by the dates on some of those articles this is not just something that was happening a few years ago. It looks like the law came down on this mid last year.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoIt felt like a few years ago to me at least :). The western press can be really delayed in reporting on these things.
- tristanj 8y agoThat wasn't government sponsored, while this one is.
- obsasclosed 8y agowhat a dystopia......if you say anything remotely controversial, it gets you censored on wechat. it stops you from buying a house, riding a train, or leaving a country, due to "social credit". it monitors you with cameras that have facial recognition everywhere. On top of that, horrific pollution, dirty food and water, too many people, debt-laden and drone-like culture.
- jahvo 8y agoLibertarians will say this is ok
- __s 8y agoEventually it'll get to where Philip K Dick had it in Lies Inc, where a drone announcer will stalk you about, informing everyone around you of your current finances
- genefriend 8y agoWhat a dystopia China is.....you can't say winnie the pooh. when you send a text message or post to wechat about winnie the pooh, it gets censored immediately. You have a deranged social credit score that prevents you from buying a house, riding a train, or leaving the country if you said winnie the pooh before. There are cameras tracking your every move in public. Most Chinese movies/tv shows you can watch have a 'china is great' and 'US/Japan is evil' motiv. Oh and pollution is suffocating, there are days when you can barely see the sky, there are way too many people everywhere, ghost buildings and cities, you know the food and water are tainted, and your leader/dictator does look like winnie the pooh.
- dang 8y agoWe've banned this account for using HN primarily for national battle, which breaks the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- smaddox 8y agoI can see this triggering an inflection point in Chinese debt accumulation (if it hasn't happened already). Considering the insanely high debt to GDP ratio in China, it looks like they're in for a massive recession.
- chenster 8y agoGot source for your claim?
- smaddox 8y agoA source for my speculation? No. A source for the high debt to GDP ratio? A simple Google search would suffice, but here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/sizing-up-china-s-debt-bubble-bloomberg-economics https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/sizing-up...
- isostatic 8y agoBloomberg claim 256% debt:gdp ratio, but it's hard to collaberate. China doesn't appear on Business Insiders list from 2015 [0], which has Japan at 250%ish. Trading economics [1] has China at 48% government debt:gdp Household debt isn't that bad either, however the grauniad has the answer -- corporate debt is sky-high [2]. It also mentions that by this measure (Corporate + household + government debt), the U.S. is 331%. It's an interesting article, albeit from 2 years ago [0] http://uk.businessinsider.com/wef-countries-with-highest-level-of-government-debt-vs-gdp-2015-10?IR=T/ http://uk.businessinsider.com/wef-countries-with-highest-lev... [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/china/government-debt-to-gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/china/government-debt-to-gdp [2] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/16/chinas-debt-is-250-of-gdp-and-could-be-fatal-says-government-expert https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/16/chinas-debt...
- isostatic 8y agoHouseholds Debt in China increased to 48 percent of GDP in the third quarter of 2017 from 46.90 percent of GDP in the second quarter of 2017 [0] From the same source Households Debt in Germany remained unchanged at 53.10 percent of GDP in the third quarter of 2017 from 53.10 percent of GDP in the second quarter of 2017 Households Debt in Japan decreased to 57.10 percent of GDP Households Debt in the United States increased to 78.50 percent of GDP Households Debt in the United Kingdom decreased to 86.50 percent of GDP Households Debt in Denmark decreased to 116.80 percent of GDP [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/china/households-debt-to-gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/china/households-debt-to-gdp
- chrischen 8y agoThey also try to shame people for jay walking. Surprised at how shaming works so well in Asia.
- rahimnathwani 8y agoWhere in China does this happen?
- chrischen 8y agoI saw it on a VICE news episode recently. They showcased these AI/Machine Learning companies using street cameras to detect jay-walkers and then shame them by displaying them on a big screen as they are doing it.
- ThatHNGuy 8y agoThat would be great if corrupted politicians could be shamed on Billboards too
- oicu812 8y agoI don't see how this is much different than the deadbeat dad billboards and public shaming that we use in the U.S. [1] They get results: "the first billboards were so successful that another round of the roadside placards are being unveiled this week" In the deadbeat dad cases the government is working for the best interests of children and women, but if you extrapolate this to a general law and order theme, then why not publicly shame all unrepentant debtors? [2] [1] https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/billboards-helped-in-arrest-of-deadbeat-dads-walsh-says https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/billboards-helped-in-arrest-... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/deadbeat-dad-tweets-arizona/ https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/deadbeat-dad-tweets-...