4 ms·

No no, I'm just pointing out that the 13th amendment to the Constitution didn't outlaw slavery entirely, but instead a clause literally beginning with the word

by jMyles 9y ago

No no, I'm just pointing out that the 13th amendment to the Constitution didn't outlaw slavery entirely, but instead a clause literally beginning with the word "except" - can you imagine? "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except ..." It's candor and obfuscation at the very same time. Here's the rest of the text: "...as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." So now, today, we have more black men under the supervision of the "criminal justice system" (which, like the NSA, is not now and have never been truly tasked with achieving its formal goals) than were enslaved in 1860.

mk89 9y ago
The concept of prison the way we intend it is relatively new (let's say a couple of hundred years). So I am not surprised to see that there are still some references to slavery here and there, because that was actually the punishment back then. The reason we have more blacks than white in prison is for dozens reasons: - legacy - cultural differences - social injustice Etc. Don't solve problems, ignore them, expect that people behave the way you want, wait until someone screws up here and here, let it escalate, ignore again and/or apply short term solutions, mix all this stuff, fast forward all of it, and you have the current situation. Just be lucky to be on the right side and have good parents.
- jMyles 9y ago
  I don't think a single iota of the prison disparity - not one - is attributable to "cultural differences". I also don't think that it is an accident. Drug prohibition was designed precisely - and initially sold expressly - as a way to control black and asian people, and later other people of color. > Don't solve problems, ignore them, expect that people behave the way you want, wait until someone screws up here and here, let it escalate, ignore again and/or apply short term solutions, mix all this stuff, fast forward all of it, and you have the current situation. I think that's pretty reasonable. That's pretty much the point I was trying to make about intelligence agencies as well.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    >initially sold expressly - as a way to control black and asian people, and later other people of color. Hippies too; that's why Nixon choose to schedule pot. https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich...
    - jMyles 9y ago
      That was much, much later. I'm talking about the legislative movement that culminated in the Harrison Narcotics Act.
  - JasonFruit 9y ago
    Got a good link on that? I'm learning some stuff today. Thanks for trading internet points for the chance to teach me.
    - jMyles 9y ago
      > Got a good link on that? I'm sure I do, but I'm not sure exactly which point you're asking about here. :-)
      - JasonFruit 9y ago
        I'll just Google --- you're a busy person.
- alistproducer2 9y ago
  This should be downvoted to oblivion. The only folks I've ever heard say black people's (we're not "blacks" BTW, we are actually people) problems are attributable to our culture ate racist shitbags. In order to believe that black people have some intrinsic culture of self destruction one would have to believe that culture evolves in some sort of vacuum. This couldn't be further from the truth when talking about African Americans. Black people have never been left to our own devices in this country. The government itself encoded ways to fuck with us and or minds from the very inception of this nation. Even after we were freed there was Jim crow and the peonage system (I'm sure you'll have to look that up). Even after Jim crow there was red lining. You don't have to be a history major to know that what your said is beyond dumb. I seriously hope you put a little more thought into the things you believe going forward.
  - basicplus2 9y ago
    I had to look it up.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_economy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_economy And in doing so I read this bit about "it may have had as much to do with spreading poverty around" I presume that white people no longer having the black people to live off meant A. white people had to do alot more work themselves, and B. white people had to share much more of the available resources with black people So that they actively participated in racism to keep more resources for themselves.. Is this a reasonable take on this? This is the part from the Wikipedia cited above I am referring to.. "However, the African American struggle to earn economic parity, that had made progress during the first half century of the postbellum era, had largely been reversed during the second half. Legally, equality was assured, but that did little to actually promulgate equal conditions in daily life. Some of the gains in the South's economic relation to the rest of the U.S. can be explained by population shifts to other regions; so, it may have had as much to do with spreading poverty around, as spreading wealth around."
    - lovich 9y ago
      You had to look up Jim Crow laws? If you are American then that is an active level of ignorance. It is taught in most schools systems as far as I am aware, and is frequently brought up in the news and other political commentary, especially in the context of any sort of checks on voter registration. I took OP's comment as you would have to look up the peonage system If you are not American then it would be perfectly understandable to be unaware
plouc 9y ago
That doesn't seem to be true at all: Wikipedia says there was around 4 million slaves in the 1860 census while the total number of incarcerated Americans in 2010 doesnt reach 2.5 millions.
- jMyles 9y ago
  I didn't say total slaves vs. total prisoners - I said black men. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/michelle-alexander-more-black-men-in-prison-slaves-1850_n_1007368.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/michelle-alexander... edit: I can't imagine why I'm being downvoted here. My statement was utterly correct, and when challenged I cited a credible source. What'd I do wrong?!
  - contourtrails 9y ago
    They broke laws and are being punished as criminals. Many people of all races are punished in the same way. I think drug laws in this country are way too harsh, but those are the laws. People should not break them if they don't want to be jailed. Also slavery was a human problem for thousands of years, it took humanity collectively waking up to the evils of slavery to abolish it. Human governments the world over supported the instition in the past, and now they've evolved. Don't judge them today based on the mistakes of the past.
    - kurczynski 9y ago
      That is the most niave understanding of government and racism.
      - contourtrails 9y ago
        How so? Economic circumstances negatively impact certain people more than others in the world but how are modern western governments perpetuating racism?
        jMyles 9y ago
damon_c 9y ago
One of the most ridiculous manifestations of this is at this prison called "Angola" in Louisiana which is literally built on a cotton field and has forced prisoners to pick cotton since around 1880. https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation-exists-and-it-s-thriving-in-the-heart-of-america#.rlRMPZ2m4 https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation... edit: another link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary
- jMyles 9y ago
  Seriously man. Imagine for a moment that Germany still had capital punishment. And they decided to use the gas chamber to administer it. I think it's the same level of insensitivity at work with the US continuing Angola as a cotton plantation in the name of administering "criminal justice." Like, have we no shame at all? Do we not care at all about what we did and the spiritual consequences of allowing its imagine to continue? Also: good to see you. :-)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by jMyles 9y ago

mk89 9y ago

The concept of prison the way we intend it is relatively new (let's say a couple of hundred years). So I am not surprised to see that there are still some references to slavery here and there, because that was actually the punishment back then. The reason we have more blacks than white in prison is for dozens reasons: - legacy - cultural differences - social injustice Etc. Don't solve problems, ignore them, expect that people behave the way you want, wait until someone screws up here and here, let it escalate, ignore again and/or apply short term solutions, mix all this stuff, fast forward all of it, and you have the current situation. Just be lucky to be on the right side and have good parents.

jMyles 9y ago
I don't think a single iota of the prison disparity - not one - is attributable to "cultural differences". I also don't think that it is an accident. Drug prohibition was designed precisely - and initially sold expressly - as a way to control black and asian people, and later other people of color. > Don't solve problems, ignore them, expect that people behave the way you want, wait until someone screws up here and here, let it escalate, ignore again and/or apply short term solutions, mix all this stuff, fast forward all of it, and you have the current situation. I think that's pretty reasonable. That's pretty much the point I was trying to make about intelligence agencies as well.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >initially sold expressly - as a way to control black and asian people, and later other people of color. Hippies too; that's why Nixon choose to schedule pot. https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich...
  - jMyles 9y ago
    That was much, much later. I'm talking about the legislative movement that culminated in the Harrison Narcotics Act.
- JasonFruit 9y ago
  Got a good link on that? I'm learning some stuff today. Thanks for trading internet points for the chance to teach me.
  - jMyles 9y ago
    > Got a good link on that? I'm sure I do, but I'm not sure exactly which point you're asking about here. :-)
    - JasonFruit 9y ago
      I'll just Google --- you're a busy person.
alistproducer2 9y ago
This should be downvoted to oblivion. The only folks I've ever heard say black people's (we're not "blacks" BTW, we are actually people) problems are attributable to our culture ate racist shitbags. In order to believe that black people have some intrinsic culture of self destruction one would have to believe that culture evolves in some sort of vacuum. This couldn't be further from the truth when talking about African Americans. Black people have never been left to our own devices in this country. The government itself encoded ways to fuck with us and or minds from the very inception of this nation. Even after we were freed there was Jim crow and the peonage system (I'm sure you'll have to look that up). Even after Jim crow there was red lining. You don't have to be a history major to know that what your said is beyond dumb. I seriously hope you put a little more thought into the things you believe going forward.
- basicplus2 9y ago
  I had to look it up.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_economy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_economy And in doing so I read this bit about "it may have had as much to do with spreading poverty around" I presume that white people no longer having the black people to live off meant A. white people had to do alot more work themselves, and B. white people had to share much more of the available resources with black people So that they actively participated in racism to keep more resources for themselves.. Is this a reasonable take on this? This is the part from the Wikipedia cited above I am referring to.. "However, the African American struggle to earn economic parity, that had made progress during the first half century of the postbellum era, had largely been reversed during the second half. Legally, equality was assured, but that did little to actually promulgate equal conditions in daily life. Some of the gains in the South's economic relation to the rest of the U.S. can be explained by population shifts to other regions; so, it may have had as much to do with spreading poverty around, as spreading wealth around."
  - lovich 9y ago
    You had to look up Jim Crow laws? If you are American then that is an active level of ignorance. It is taught in most schools systems as far as I am aware, and is frequently brought up in the news and other political commentary, especially in the context of any sort of checks on voter registration. I took OP's comment as you would have to look up the peonage system If you are not American then it would be perfectly understandable to be unaware

plouc 9y ago

That doesn't seem to be true at all: Wikipedia says there was around 4 million slaves in the 1860 census while the total number of incarcerated Americans in 2010 doesnt reach 2.5 millions.

jMyles 9y ago
I didn't say total slaves vs. total prisoners - I said black men. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/michelle-alexander-more-black-men-in-prison-slaves-1850_n_1007368.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/michelle-alexander... edit: I can't imagine why I'm being downvoted here. My statement was utterly correct, and when challenged I cited a credible source. What'd I do wrong?!
- contourtrails 9y ago
  They broke laws and are being punished as criminals. Many people of all races are punished in the same way. I think drug laws in this country are way too harsh, but those are the laws. People should not break them if they don't want to be jailed. Also slavery was a human problem for thousands of years, it took humanity collectively waking up to the evils of slavery to abolish it. Human governments the world over supported the instition in the past, and now they've evolved. Don't judge them today based on the mistakes of the past.
  - kurczynski 9y ago
    That is the most niave understanding of government and racism.
    - contourtrails 9y ago
      How so? Economic circumstances negatively impact certain people more than others in the world but how are modern western governments perpetuating racism?
      - jMyles 9y ago

damon_c 9y ago

One of the most ridiculous manifestations of this is at this prison called "Angola" in Louisiana which is literally built on a cotton field and has forced prisoners to pick cotton since around 1880. https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation-exists-and-it-s-thriving-in-the-heart-of-america#.rlRMPZ2m4 https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation... edit: another link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary

jMyles 9y ago
Seriously man. Imagine for a moment that Germany still had capital punishment. And they decided to use the gas chamber to administer it. I think it's the same level of insensitivity at work with the US continuing Angola as a cotton plantation in the name of administering "criminal justice." Like, have we no shame at all? Do we not care at all about what we did and the spiritual consequences of allowing its imagine to continue? Also: good to see you. :-)

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]