8 ms·

I'm wondering how that salary difference really is when comparing the cost of living of many Canadian cities vs Silicon Valley, the taxation rate and the social

by m-p-3 9y ago

I'm wondering how that salary difference really is when comparing the cost of living of many Canadian cities vs Silicon Valley, the taxation rate and the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc).

lainga 9y ago
Coming from BC (west coast) I believe the taxation rate would work out about the same.
- refurb 9y ago
  Income taxes BC <> CA are pretty similar, but other taxes aren't. Gas is the equivalent of $6/gal in Canada right now (due to taxes), sales tax is 12% and a lot of products (electronics, etc) are just generally more expensive in Canada.
  - ixacto 9y ago
    Seattle is trying hard to catch up. 10.1% sales tax + just under 50% liquor tax.
    - refurb 9y ago
      No state income tax though!
  - dagmx 9y ago
    This is something I've been comparing. I'd pay a little less in income tax in California actually for my brackets, but even though rents etc in SV are higher, I also would be paying less for gas, groceries and any entertainment and tech purchases. The savings look like they will add up over time.
bacongobbler 9y ago
The cost of living in the major Canadian tech cities (Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa) is lower than Silicon Valley, sure, but Vancouver is still one of the most expensive cities to live in the world. The drop in salary is way too low when compared to the cost of living.
Eridrus 9y ago
> the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc). I think the individual value of most social services is pretty low to people in this demographic (recent graduates taking software jobs in the US). Sure, universal healthcare is great, but US companies also provide health insurance.
- estebank 9y ago
  That demographic you're referring to is no less likely to be involved in traffic accidents that can send you to the closest available hospital. In the US that means an ambulance bill and very likely a hospital bill that your insurance might not cover, and the high possibility of chronic pain that's not necessarily covered by your health insurance. And that's even before having to deal with lawyers in order to obtain compensation back from the driver's insurance company in order to repay the out of pocket expenses. (The system, at least in California is set up in such a way that the car insurance has to pay 3X the costs to divide in thirds for 1) your lawyer, 2) your insurance provider and 3) yourself.)
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    Yes, but most companies in this space provide some sort of healthcare, which covers a lot of that, and accidents are a small percentage of total healthcare outlays anyway. Much more healthcare spending goes to older people, for a much broader array of more common conditions than "got into a bad car accident". Health insurance is much more expensive at 55 than at 25.
    - estebank 9y ago
      Younger people do have fewer needs to treat chronic illnesses. That doesn't mean that healthcare can never be a significant financial burden regardless. - I've met people that have had terminal cancer in their very early 30s (didn't leave a giant bill to their state as this happened in the UK) - I've had a friend that needed an ambulance for his pregnant wife from an airport (>10K USD in out of pocket expenses) - I've been stabbed in an attempted robbery (again, no expense as this was in Argentina) - Young people with chronic illnesses exist
ironrabbit 9y ago
Born/raised in Toronto, been in SF for ~4 years. It's not even close. Yes, my rent in SF is high, but my total comp is six figures higher than what I could earn in Toronto. Wages are considerably higher, even when you factor in cost of living, services, and everything else.
mywittyname 9y ago
The big tech hubs in CA (Toronto, Vancouver) are expensive and traffic is absolutely awful. A quick glance online shows average apartment prices are nearly $2000/mo. So it's almost like you're living in Seattle anyway. I don't think CA has many technical equivalents to Ohama or Columbus that combine high salaries from numerous F500 companies with Midwestern COL.
- Thaxll 9y ago
  Isn't Montreal bigger than Vancouver? Also Montreal is cheap to live in.
  - monkeynotes 9y ago
    Quebec has some of the highest income taxes in Canada.
    - betaby 9y ago
      About the same as in California for salaries over 100K
  - t1o5 9y ago
    Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws) MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy for selecting immigrants to Quebec fails to attract or retain the foreign talents. A highly skilled worker is not given any kind of priority in their immigration application. On the other hand, if you only have a school diploma, but can speak fluent French, you get the top priority in Quebec immigration. If you are highly skilled, but do not know a word of French, it will take a minimum of 4 years to immigrate to Quebec [2]. Montreal is just riding on their old inertia. There is a huge shortage of talent in Quebec. The policies of immigration dept. of Quebec and Quebec's language policies will drive Quebec down the drain. Some politicians have even announced that if they get elected, they will deport all the non French speaking immigrants out of Quebec. So any startups looking to start their business in Quebec, you have been warned. Montreal is a great tourist city, no contest. But not so great to live or work for tech. If you immigrate to Quebec, your kids should go to French school only.[4] [1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pastagate-reveals-the-hypocrisy-of-quebecs-french-hardliners/article9065481/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pastagate-reve... [2] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs-etrangers-qualifies-oublies-par-quebec http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs... [3] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/caq-s-new-immigration-policy-learn-french-or-leave-1.2282545 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/caq-s-new-immigration-policy-lea... [4] http://unbelavenir.gouv.qc.ca/en/whychoosequebec-foreducation.php http://unbelavenir.gouv.qc.ca/en/whychoosequebec-foreducatio...
privacypoller 9y ago
The cost of living between Vancouver and Seattle is very comparable, especially when you account for your biggest input costs, housing, food & transportation. The Salaries most definitely are not. The biggies south of the border set the baseline salary for everyone; when they move north they match the existing, much lower rates. If I was a new-ish grad and wanted to stay in the PNW there's not a chance I'd pick Vancouver. Seattle has all the same electric cars, dog bakeries and yarn stores that you'll find in the lower mainland, and heading to Whistler for the weekend with more US greenbacks in your pocket would be a lot more fun...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- hluska 9y ago
  I can't believe how much Vancouver has changed (as far as attractiveness for recent grads) over the last twenty years. When I turned 20 in 1997, Vancouver seemed like a personal version of heaven. Rents were more expensive than where I'm from, but that increase was easily offset by the ability to easily double my salary. Real estate was heavy, but not so heavy that it seemed unobtainable. Add in what I perceived to be real opportunity to work in an interesting field, a highly educated workforce and the natural beauty and I was completely sold. Today, even if I were twenty again, I can't think of a single legitimate reason why I would choose Vancouver over Seattle.
  - woolvalley 9y ago
    Having lived in both, the cities are pretty much identical in practice in your day to day life, not counting the costs and the income.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Eating out is definitely better in Vancouver than Seattle, both in variety and price. However, that’s about it.
merinowool 9y ago
Is Canadian healthcare any good? Where I live, you pay for this privilege quite a lot of tax at still you have to go privately, because the quality is just not worth your health. I really wish "universal healthcare" was scrapped, so I could afford better services privately.
- graeme 9y ago
  Yup, Canadian healthcare is generally excellent. The main complaints thar hit the news are generally long wait times for elective surgeries like knee fixes. For anything other than that I've had effectively zero wait time and excellent care. There are even free health lines you can call for basic info.
- wk_end 9y ago
  Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US. Waiting times are probably somewhat longer for non-emergencies because of triaging, but (again, my experience, subjective, etc) I've often felt doctors are more interested in providing care and less interested in unnecessary upselling. I've only ever lived in the GTA, though. It's my understanding that in many places away from major cities there can be a shortage of doctors.
  - refurb 9y ago
    Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US. Canadian living in US as well. The one thing I've noticed is the choice of healthcare in the US (for those with good insurance). Have cancer? Pick the best hospital you can find in the area. In Canada, you might live next to a world-class institute or it might just be a regular hospital. That's where you go. But yes, healthcare in Canada is very good. The other thing I would call out is that experimental/cutting edge technology is often available in the US before Canada.
- __erik 9y ago
  Canadian services are typically good especially for urgent care things, I only have gone private on one occasion and that was for an MRI years ago when there were fewer of them available. I had a tear in my MCL and they wanted to see the degree (relatively low priority, it wasn't a full tear and I didnt need surgery). The wait for the MRI was ~6 weeks but so just paid out of pocket privately and had the results sent to my doctor. Took 2 days and he got what he needed.
deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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by m-p-3 9y ago

lainga 9y ago

Coming from BC (west coast) I believe the taxation rate would work out about the same.

refurb 9y ago
Income taxes BC <> CA are pretty similar, but other taxes aren't. Gas is the equivalent of $6/gal in Canada right now (due to taxes), sales tax is 12% and a lot of products (electronics, etc) are just generally more expensive in Canada.
- ixacto 9y ago
  Seattle is trying hard to catch up. 10.1% sales tax + just under 50% liquor tax.
  - refurb 9y ago
    No state income tax though!
- dagmx 9y ago
  This is something I've been comparing. I'd pay a little less in income tax in California actually for my brackets, but even though rents etc in SV are higher, I also would be paying less for gas, groceries and any entertainment and tech purchases. The savings look like they will add up over time.

bacongobbler 9y ago

The cost of living in the major Canadian tech cities (Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa) is lower than Silicon Valley, sure, but Vancouver is still one of the most expensive cities to live in the world. The drop in salary is way too low when compared to the cost of living.

Eridrus 9y ago

> the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc). I think the individual value of most social services is pretty low to people in this demographic (recent graduates taking software jobs in the US). Sure, universal healthcare is great, but US companies also provide health insurance.

estebank 9y ago
That demographic you're referring to is no less likely to be involved in traffic accidents that can send you to the closest available hospital. In the US that means an ambulance bill and very likely a hospital bill that your insurance might not cover, and the high possibility of chronic pain that's not necessarily covered by your health insurance. And that's even before having to deal with lawyers in order to obtain compensation back from the driver's insurance company in order to repay the out of pocket expenses. (The system, at least in California is set up in such a way that the car insurance has to pay 3X the costs to divide in thirds for 1) your lawyer, 2) your insurance provider and 3) yourself.)
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  Yes, but most companies in this space provide some sort of healthcare, which covers a lot of that, and accidents are a small percentage of total healthcare outlays anyway. Much more healthcare spending goes to older people, for a much broader array of more common conditions than "got into a bad car accident". Health insurance is much more expensive at 55 than at 25.
  - estebank 9y ago
    Younger people do have fewer needs to treat chronic illnesses. That doesn't mean that healthcare can never be a significant financial burden regardless. - I've met people that have had terminal cancer in their very early 30s (didn't leave a giant bill to their state as this happened in the UK) - I've had a friend that needed an ambulance for his pregnant wife from an airport (>10K USD in out of pocket expenses) - I've been stabbed in an attempted robbery (again, no expense as this was in Argentina) - Young people with chronic illnesses exist

ironrabbit 9y ago

Born/raised in Toronto, been in SF for ~4 years. It's not even close. Yes, my rent in SF is high, but my total comp is six figures higher than what I could earn in Toronto. Wages are considerably higher, even when you factor in cost of living, services, and everything else.

mywittyname 9y ago

The big tech hubs in CA (Toronto, Vancouver) are expensive and traffic is absolutely awful. A quick glance online shows average apartment prices are nearly $2000/mo. So it's almost like you're living in Seattle anyway. I don't think CA has many technical equivalents to Ohama or Columbus that combine high salaries from numerous F500 companies with Midwestern COL.

Thaxll 9y ago
Isn't Montreal bigger than Vancouver? Also Montreal is cheap to live in.
- monkeynotes 9y ago
  Quebec has some of the highest income taxes in Canada.
  - betaby 9y ago
    About the same as in California for salaries over 100K
- t1o5 9y ago
  Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws) MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy for selecting immigrants to Quebec fails to attract or retain the foreign talents. A highly skilled worker is not given any kind of priority in their immigration application. On the other hand, if you only have a school diploma, but can speak fluent French, you get the top priority in Quebec immigration. If you are highly skilled, but do not know a word of French, it will take a minimum of 4 years to immigrate to Quebec [2]. Montreal is just riding on their old inertia. There is a huge shortage of talent in Quebec. The policies of immigration dept. of Quebec and Quebec's language policies will drive Quebec down the drain. Some politicians have even announced that if they get elected, they will deport all the non French speaking immigrants out of Quebec. So any startups looking to start their business in Quebec, you have been warned. Montreal is a great tourist city, no contest. But not so great to live or work for tech. If you immigrate to Quebec, your kids should go to French school only.[4] [1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pastagate-reveals-the-hypocrisy-of-quebecs-french-hardliners/article9065481/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pastagate-reve... [2] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs-etrangers-qualifies-oublies-par-quebec http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs... [3] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/caq-s-new-immigration-policy-learn-french-or-leave-1.2282545 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/caq-s-new-immigration-policy-lea... [4] http://unbelavenir.gouv.qc.ca/en/whychoosequebec-foreducation.php http://unbelavenir.gouv.qc.ca/en/whychoosequebec-foreducatio...

privacypoller 9y ago

The cost of living between Vancouver and Seattle is very comparable, especially when you account for your biggest input costs, housing, food & transportation. The Salaries most definitely are not. The biggies south of the border set the baseline salary for everyone; when they move north they match the existing, much lower rates. If I was a new-ish grad and wanted to stay in the PNW there's not a chance I'd pick Vancouver. Seattle has all the same electric cars, dog bakeries and yarn stores that you'll find in the lower mainland, and heading to Whistler for the weekend with more US greenbacks in your pocket would be a lot more fun...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hluska 9y ago
I can't believe how much Vancouver has changed (as far as attractiveness for recent grads) over the last twenty years. When I turned 20 in 1997, Vancouver seemed like a personal version of heaven. Rents were more expensive than where I'm from, but that increase was easily offset by the ability to easily double my salary. Real estate was heavy, but not so heavy that it seemed unobtainable. Add in what I perceived to be real opportunity to work in an interesting field, a highly educated workforce and the natural beauty and I was completely sold. Today, even if I were twenty again, I can't think of a single legitimate reason why I would choose Vancouver over Seattle.
- woolvalley 9y ago
  Having lived in both, the cities are pretty much identical in practice in your day to day life, not counting the costs and the income.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Eating out is definitely better in Vancouver than Seattle, both in variety and price. However, that’s about it.

merinowool 9y ago

Is Canadian healthcare any good? Where I live, you pay for this privilege quite a lot of tax at still you have to go privately, because the quality is just not worth your health. I really wish "universal healthcare" was scrapped, so I could afford better services privately.

graeme 9y ago
Yup, Canadian healthcare is generally excellent. The main complaints thar hit the news are generally long wait times for elective surgeries like knee fixes. For anything other than that I've had effectively zero wait time and excellent care. There are even free health lines you can call for basic info.
wk_end 9y ago
Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US. Waiting times are probably somewhat longer for non-emergencies because of triaging, but (again, my experience, subjective, etc) I've often felt doctors are more interested in providing care and less interested in unnecessary upselling. I've only ever lived in the GTA, though. It's my understanding that in many places away from major cities there can be a shortage of doctors.
- refurb 9y ago
  Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US. Canadian living in US as well. The one thing I've noticed is the choice of healthcare in the US (for those with good insurance). Have cancer? Pick the best hospital you can find in the area. In Canada, you might live next to a world-class institute or it might just be a regular hospital. That's where you go. But yes, healthcare in Canada is very good. The other thing I would call out is that experimental/cutting edge technology is often available in the US before Canada.
__erik 9y ago
Canadian services are typically good especially for urgent care things, I only have gone private on one occasion and that was for an MRI years ago when there were fewer of them available. I had a tear in my MCL and they wanted to see the degree (relatively low priority, it wasn't a full tear and I didnt need surgery). The wait for the MRI was ~6 weeks but so just paid out of pocket privately and had the results sent to my doctor. Took 2 days and he got what he needed.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]