4 ms·

I think back in the 70's there was less resistance to the idea of kids (teenagers) doing chores and having odd jobs as a way of making spendable income .. these

I think back in the 70's there was less resistance to the idea of kids (teenagers) doing chores and having odd jobs as a way of making spendable income .. these days, its kind of resisted as it means you're too poor to be a proper member of middle-class consumption society, or something. Still, I think its a definite ethical difference - back then, kids developed the skills to survive in capitalistic society pretty early - paper routes, odd jobs, etc. These days, it really seems like raising kids to deal with capitalism involves turning them into rabid frothy-mouthed commies who only want to tear down the state and replace it with non-work-required utopia...

JohnBooty 9y ago
These days, it really seems like raising kids to deal with capitalism involves turning them into rabid frothy-mouthed commies who only want to tear down the state and replace it with non-work-required utopia What? As a capitalist myself here's a book I really recommend: https://www.amazon.com/Marx-Beginners-Rius/dp/0375714618 https://www.amazon.com/Marx-Beginners-Rius/dp/0375714618 I suspect you will walk away from it thinking the same thing most people do: Marx's criticisms of capitalism are absolutely vital and relevant to this day... and his solutions are even worse, and that capitalism is still probably the least terrible solution we've got. :) But more to the point: there is no definition of socialism or communism that even remotely advocates this a "non-work-required utopia." It's all about work and workers! (Now, in practice, socialist/communist societies wound up stratifying anyway, and elites often didn't exactly have to spend their days in a coal mine or shoveling pig shit like the commonfolk. But that's been pretty much true of every economic system under the sun since the beginning of mankind. So, even a cursory glance at history tells us that this is not a problem unique to socialism or communism.)
- fit2rule 9y ago
  I'm not looking for a pro-/anti- discussion. Dialectic materialism never solved a thing. What I do want to point out though, is that teens don't work like they used to. Some think thats a good thing; others do not. Alas, only the prosperity of future generations can really provide a valid indicator ..
  - hur 9y ago
    As a teen who works and has numerous friends who all work part-time jobs with school / full time during summer, I disagree with your generalization.
  - krageon 9y ago
    You must meet very different teenagers than I do. Every store that has trash work to do here (for which they want to pay as little as possible) has teenagers working for them. The service industry employs them where they can get away with it too.
  - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
    Adults always seems to believe teens don't work like they did. Those adults are almost always wrong - although not necessarily in the obvious ways. A small minority of teens run successful YT/Instagram/WA/Etsy channels, and some of them make surprisingly good money from them.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnBooty 8y ago
    Oh no it wasn't a debate I was just trying to help you understand the words you used wrong. Now you can use them correctly in the future!
nvarsj 9y ago
Much of my parent's generation thought my entire generation were lazy good for nothings. Thought I spent too much time on these new fangled electronic devices late at night, instead of doing honest-to-god hard work. Careful of your biases.
jonhendry18 9y ago
"these days, its kind of resisted as it means you're too poor to be a proper member of middle-class consumption society, or something." I suspect a lot of kids are busy doing things that look better on a college application.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  edit: The data justify this hypothesis. School enrollment in July skyrocketed from 10% in 1984 to 42% in 2016, and enrollment in advanced coursework has a similar curve to it. Anecdote time: I grew up in an area with a good mix of blue collar and white collar families. Reunion season is coming up so I reconnected with some old friends. There's actually strong INVERSE correlation between "had a typical summer job" and "success in the marketplace". Most of the doctors/lawyers/engineers/software people didn't work typical teenager summer jobs and are now doing very well, both financially and in life (families, houses, health, hobbies). A depressing percentage of the people who did work summer jobs are still working those same jobs. The people who are doing the best had a summer activity, but not a typical teenage job (or even a job). E.g., freelance programming, prestigious math/science camps/competition prep, volunteering and hospitals and in research labs, etc. Years later, you see the dividends paying on an early investment in increasing the value of one's labor. IMO the blend of protestant work ethic and capitalism on display in the parent comment can be a dangerous one to teach kids. That fantasy is not how the world works. No one gives a damn how hard you work; what they care about is what you get done for them. Otherwise we'd all be digging trenches with spoons.

JohnBooty 9y ago

These days, it really seems like raising kids to deal with capitalism involves turning them into rabid frothy-mouthed commies who only want to tear down the state and replace it with non-work-required utopia What? As a capitalist myself here's a book I really recommend: https://www.amazon.com/Marx-Beginners-Rius/dp/0375714618 https://www.amazon.com/Marx-Beginners-Rius/dp/0375714618 I suspect you will walk away from it thinking the same thing most people do: Marx's criticisms of capitalism are absolutely vital and relevant to this day... and his solutions are even worse, and that capitalism is still probably the least terrible solution we've got. :) But more to the point: there is no definition of socialism or communism that even remotely advocates this a "non-work-required utopia." It's all about work and workers! (Now, in practice, socialist/communist societies wound up stratifying anyway, and elites often didn't exactly have to spend their days in a coal mine or shoveling pig shit like the commonfolk. But that's been pretty much true of every economic system under the sun since the beginning of mankind. So, even a cursory glance at history tells us that this is not a problem unique to socialism or communism.)

fit2rule 9y ago
I'm not looking for a pro-/anti- discussion. Dialectic materialism never solved a thing. What I do want to point out though, is that teens don't work like they used to. Some think thats a good thing; others do not. Alas, only the prosperity of future generations can really provide a valid indicator ..
- hur 9y ago
  As a teen who works and has numerous friends who all work part-time jobs with school / full time during summer, I disagree with your generalization.
- krageon 9y ago
  You must meet very different teenagers than I do. Every store that has trash work to do here (for which they want to pay as little as possible) has teenagers working for them. The service industry employs them where they can get away with it too.
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  Adults always seems to believe teens don't work like they did. Those adults are almost always wrong - although not necessarily in the obvious ways. A small minority of teens run successful YT/Instagram/WA/Etsy channels, and some of them make surprisingly good money from them.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  Oh no it wasn't a debate I was just trying to help you understand the words you used wrong. Now you can use them correctly in the future!

nvarsj 9y ago

Much of my parent's generation thought my entire generation were lazy good for nothings. Thought I spent too much time on these new fangled electronic devices late at night, instead of doing honest-to-god hard work. Careful of your biases.

jonhendry18 9y ago

"these days, its kind of resisted as it means you're too poor to be a proper member of middle-class consumption society, or something." I suspect a lot of kids are busy doing things that look better on a college application.

throwawayjava 9y ago
edit: The data justify this hypothesis. School enrollment in July skyrocketed from 10% in 1984 to 42% in 2016, and enrollment in advanced coursework has a similar curve to it. Anecdote time: I grew up in an area with a good mix of blue collar and white collar families. Reunion season is coming up so I reconnected with some old friends. There's actually strong INVERSE correlation between "had a typical summer job" and "success in the marketplace". Most of the doctors/lawyers/engineers/software people didn't work typical teenager summer jobs and are now doing very well, both financially and in life (families, houses, health, hobbies). A depressing percentage of the people who did work summer jobs are still working those same jobs. The people who are doing the best had a summer activity, but not a typical teenage job (or even a job). E.g., freelance programming, prestigious math/science camps/competition prep, volunteering and hospitals and in research labs, etc. Years later, you see the dividends paying on an early investment in increasing the value of one's labor. IMO the blend of protestant work ethic and capitalism on display in the parent comment can be a dangerous one to teach kids. That fantasy is not how the world works. No one gives a damn how hard you work; what they care about is what you get done for them. Otherwise we'd all be digging trenches with spoons.