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If you believe housing prices are a core problem to the growth of your business why continue to grow in the bay area rather than try and move to a less expensiv

If you believe housing prices are a core problem to the growth of your business why continue to grow in the bay area rather than try and move to a less expensive region of the country? Massive growth in the SF housing supply is just politically infeasible at this time, a million dollar donation won't change that.

ch4s3 8y ago
> less expensive region of the country I don't live in CA, but I get why people want to. Where would you propose? Where else has a strong economy, good universities, nice weather, a well educated/talented work force, legal frameworks amenable to tech, good food, and interesting culture? There just aren't a lot of candidates, and if everyone moves hypothetically and never grapples with NIMBY policy, they'll just bring the problem with them.
- zcdziura 8y ago
  Off the top of my head, I can think of two places: Raleigh, NC and Austin, TX.
  - tmh79 8y ago
    they're both undergoing a housing crises right now
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Nashville, TN, Research Triangle Park in NC, Austin/San Antonio, TX with Tampa/Orlando, FL coming in as runner up as growing tech hubs.
  - ng12 8y ago
    A quick googling of `${city} housing crisis`: https://www.nashville.gov/Portals/0/SiteContent/Human%20Realations%20Commission/docs/publications/HousingGuide.pdf https://www.nashville.gov/Portals/0/SiteContent/Human%20Real... https://www.wral.com/officials-describe-wake-county-as-affordable-housing-desert-crisis/17114070/ https://www.wral.com/officials-describe-wake-county-as-affor... https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2018-02-02/whose-affordability-crisis/ https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2018-02-02/whose-afford... https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/03/15/orlandos-affordable-housing-crisis-is-about-to-implode https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/03/15/orla...
    - ch4s3 8y ago
      Unless (in America) we start approaching housing differently, we'll see the same problem happen over and over again, until the whole economy is choked by housing costs and wealth is transferred from productive uses to land owners seeking rents.
  - capkutay 8y ago
    This is very HN-centric thinking (rational but not scalable). People move to Silicon Valley to "move to Silicon Valley". They're chasing a dream and they want to be in the thick of it. Sure you might find a couple good job opportunities in Nashville or Tampa, but its hard to compare that to being in the thick of tech industry where you're right in the middle of the world's top companies, surrounded by lots of talent to push you further.
    - zjaffee 8y ago
      While that will always exist, the majority of people moving to the bay area are moving to work for a company like Facebook or Google rather than to work on their own startup.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      Invest in technologies and processes to make remote work a reality so you don't have to be in Silicon Valley to work there.
      - ch4s3 8y ago
        Remote work is fine, and should be more available, but agglomeration effects are real. Putting a lot of smart interesting people in a few dense places just makes sense.
      - DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
        Agreed. Imagine what might be possible if SV employers were willing to spend $15k per employee annually on making remote teams awesome, as opposed to paying (I'm just guessing) $25k/year in salary and rent to keep them in SV. I don't know what a real solution would cost, but it's a question worth asking IMO.
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        The technology isn't the problem. It's the companies.
  - ch4s3 8y ago
    I'm from near Research Triangle Park in NC and have to say that the weather is miserable all summer, just horrible. The traffic is abysmal, and everything is strip malls and McMansions. You can top that off with the insane gerrymandering in NC that prevents the most populace areas from having any political power. Locals are quite hostile to new-comers, and the government keeps trying to tell people which bathrooms to use which is just bizarre. Yeah, BBQ is great, the schools are good, and low taxes are nice, but NC really misses the mark for me in a lot of ways. Having grown up in the area, I am not a fan. I don't know too much about the other places.
    - electricslpnsld 8y ago
      > everything is strip malls and McMansions Say what? I visited Durham recently and had a blast -- lots of cool local businesses (Fullsteam Brewery was an amazing find) and neat old warehouses and charming old houses and such. Carrboro was also great, people biking everywhere and local hippie markets and stuff.
      - ch4s3 8y ago
        Yes, Durham is very nice (and Fullsteam is pretty great), but the part you visited is very small and not representative of the rest of the region at all. Raleigh also has a tiny, and nice downtown. However, the region is still a snarl of highways and unsustainable suburban sprawl.
  - briffle 8y ago
    Minneapolis if you ignore the weather for 6 months..
  - Atheros 8y ago
    Nashville, TN just voted down an important public transit initiative. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/05/what-went-wrong-with-nashvilles-transit-plan/559436/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/05/what-went-wro...
  - jedberg 8y ago
    I currently live in the Bay Area. I would never even consider any of the places you just listed, due to the weather alone.
- zjaffee 8y ago
  > a well educated/talented work force This one is the only part that's not really possible at this time. However, if a company is willing to invest directly in growing the housing supply in the bay area, they should be willing to make the effort to try and grow talent in other parts of the country. And there are tons of other places that have some combinations of good universities, nice weather, good food and interesting cultures. Namely large parts of sunbelt region in addition to other cities which may not have as nice weather, but make up for it in business friendliness and cost of living. It's also important to remember that virtually all urban areas are liberal and diverse, even in conservative states such as Texas.
  - ch4s3 8y ago
    > This one is the only part that's not really possible at this time. However, if a company is willing to invest directly in growing the housing supply in the bay area, they should be willing to make the effort to try and grow talent in other parts of the country. I don't know how to reliably "grow talent", and I'm not sure most companies would either. Building housing and attracting talent are solved problems, so why not try that first? I'm not saying companies shouldn't be in Austin or Huston, far from it. However, SF and NYC are titanic economic engines that could be even more dynamic if they had more housing. There is an obvious solution to the not enough housing problem, difficult though it may be, it's probably worth solving.
    - zjaffee 8y ago
      You're ignoring the consequences that come from building large amounts of new housing at once, I should preface this by saying I'm very much in favor of new housing just we need to be careful about it. First you grow talent the same way it grew in the bay area, by letting people work on challenging software products decade over decade. Second, population growth leads to strains on civic infrastructure which in the bay area is way under invested in. Additionally, there is a very limited amount of infil available to build new housing on, so it would require that other housing get torn down in order to build said new housing. In areas with small lots, this is harder to do because you need to buy up a bunch of surrounding properties to build a larger building. This often contributes to increased displacement as developers are buying up properties, using laws such as the ellis act to evict and redevelop properties. Oddly enough, the restricted zoning which keeps prices high, also reduces the amount of redevelopment that happens which keeps land values lower and maintains rent control that would not be allowed for new buildings under costa hawkins. Additionally, the political infeasibility of San Francisco should not be overlooked. This is a city with a long history of anti-capitalist activity and capitalists should recognize this fact and go to places that will be more accepting of their investments.
- rb808 8y ago
  Fine. Maybe the Bay Area is the best place for those types of people. Your illustration demonstrates why it should be more expensive to live there.
  - derefr 8y ago
    More expensive, yes; exponentially more expensive, no. Those market forces alone don’t account for the cost of living; that’s entirely down to zoning laws preventing high- or even medium-rises.
  - ch4s3 8y ago
    > should be more expensive to live there I didn't say anything about should or shouldn't. I was putting forth the idea that it is uniquely attractive to companies and workers. If housing were a normal market, supply would rise to meet demand, and the market could arrive at some sort of equilibrium. The present situation only serves rent seeking interests, and I believe that as a matter of public policy we should prioritize a broader set of stakeholder needs. On a macro level, prioritizing the interests of rent seekers is economically sub optimal, and transfers wealth from workers, companies, and consumers to land owners.
- nradov 8y ago
  Cleveland, OH meets at least most of those criteria.
394852034 8y ago
This really blows my mind. It really can't be some sort of pretension or cliquish type of instinctual herding impulse ... can it ??? I've never understood the whole concentration of the tech industry in such dense clusters, it's quite literally not only the opposite of what all the wise men predicted technology and the internet would do and is also totally contrary to some fundamental technology concepts. Talk about putting all your eggs in a basket. On the other hand, I also don't understand how other cities seem to be unable to attract a kind of threshold level of tech people to incubate something similar elsewhere. It feels like it is seriously way past due that the big tech companies get broken up and their monopolies shattered in order to allow for competition and diversification of the market.
lacker 8y ago
This problem is bigger than just Stripe's business. It hurts many Americans and the whole American economy when unemployment is 2% in San Francisco, 8% in Detroit, and yet the rent is so much more expensive in San Francisco, many people will stay jobless in a cheaper city rather than move there. source for my stats: https://www.google.com/search?q=detroit+unemployment+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=detroit+unemployment+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=san+francisco+unemployment+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=san+francisco+unemployment+r...
- zjaffee 8y ago
  Yes Detroit has a high unemployment rate, but it is in the best interest of companies to go to detroit, and bring their work forces with them which they are refusing to do due to the belief that you can only find talent in the bay area. I believe that this is just a self fulfilling prophecy, if companies invested in new cities, it would lead to more and more tech workers choosing to live in those places rather than in California.
  - davidw 8y ago
    > bring their work forces with them You can't just shackle them up and put them on a train though. Plenty of people don't want to live in Detroit, and have other opportunities in the Bay Area or elsewhere. Perhaps they prefer the climate in CA, or perhaps they want to be someplace where there are plenty of other opportunities if the one job doesn't work out.
    - zjaffee 8y ago
      I'm not saying everyone would need to move, but if you polled your work force, and asked them if they wanted to start a new office in a new city, who would be interested in moving to which cities from a list. I'm sure you'd find enough people to start a new engineering office with at least one team. From there you can grow. This is sort of the logic I'm going by here.
      - 8y ago
pc 8y ago
> If you believe housing prices are a core problem to the growth of your business why continue to grow in the bay area rather than try and move to a less expensive region of the country? We also do that! Stripe is hiring engineers in both Seattle and Dublin, and for other roles in many other cities. Please apply :-). https://stripe.com/jobs https://stripe.com/jobs That said... this issue isn't just (or primarily) a Stripe issue. It's a broader social and economic problem. Even if Stripe is okay, we want to help fix the larger issue around us.
- taurath 8y ago
  Do you see any value in a bunch of companies of different specialities planting a flag somewhere and building heir own infrastructure (university, town, housing)? It feels like it could be cheaper and better for everyone’s quality of life.
  - tomkarlo 8y ago
    The history of corporate funded cities (or even government planned ones) is not good. It takes far too long to generate a real community / cultural center vs. the time spans corporations want to work in. Also, the city governments would be highly inclined to align with the interests of the companies, not the residents, which is not a recipe for a fun place to live. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordl%C3%A2ndia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordl%C3%A2ndia
    - taurath 8y ago
      I’m definitely aware of the history! I’m wondering if there can be mitigation’s put in place for handle them
      - isostatic 8y ago
        Places in the UK that come to mind are railway towns -- Crewe, Swindon, Doncaster, Ashford. They all tend to be doing fine now, despite starting off as a town built around a single employer.
jpao79 8y ago
Yes, SF has physical limitations related to the geography being surrounded by water on three sides and mountains on the fourth side. Starting a 2nd Stripe Headquarters in Downtown San Jose near the proposed Didiron Transit Village like Google is would be huge [1]. Those without kids will be able to live in Downtown San Jose which is going through a mild renaissance (i.e. area around San Pedro Market) and those with kids will be able to commute in from Morgan Hill/Gilroy in 20 minutes, and Modesto in 20 minutes once HSR arrives. Execs/VCs could take Caltrain or an easy non-rush hour drive on 280 to shuttle between SF and SJ. Downtown Sacramento is also pretty happening downtown these days with a mix of trendy historical areas that could easily go hipster. And has UC Davis providing a strong student inflow to the area. [1] https://www.curbed.com/2017/12/5/16738120/google-san-jose-campus-silicon-valley https://www.curbed.com/2017/12/5/16738120/google-san-jose-ca...

ch4s3 8y ago

> less expensive region of the country I don't live in CA, but I get why people want to. Where would you propose? Where else has a strong economy, good universities, nice weather, a well educated/talented work force, legal frameworks amenable to tech, good food, and interesting culture? There just aren't a lot of candidates, and if everyone moves hypothetically and never grapples with NIMBY policy, they'll just bring the problem with them.

zcdziura 8y ago
Off the top of my head, I can think of two places: Raleigh, NC and Austin, TX.
- tmh79 8y ago
  they're both undergoing a housing crises right now
toomuchtodo 8y ago
Nashville, TN, Research Triangle Park in NC, Austin/San Antonio, TX with Tampa/Orlando, FL coming in as runner up as growing tech hubs.
- ng12 8y ago
  A quick googling of `${city} housing crisis`: https://www.nashville.gov/Portals/0/SiteContent/Human%20Realations%20Commission/docs/publications/HousingGuide.pdf https://www.nashville.gov/Portals/0/SiteContent/Human%20Real... https://www.wral.com/officials-describe-wake-county-as-affordable-housing-desert-crisis/17114070/ https://www.wral.com/officials-describe-wake-county-as-affor... https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2018-02-02/whose-affordability-crisis/ https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2018-02-02/whose-afford... https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/03/15/orlandos-affordable-housing-crisis-is-about-to-implode https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/03/15/orla...
  - ch4s3 8y ago
    Unless (in America) we start approaching housing differently, we'll see the same problem happen over and over again, until the whole economy is choked by housing costs and wealth is transferred from productive uses to land owners seeking rents.
- capkutay 8y ago
  This is very HN-centric thinking (rational but not scalable). People move to Silicon Valley to "move to Silicon Valley". They're chasing a dream and they want to be in the thick of it. Sure you might find a couple good job opportunities in Nashville or Tampa, but its hard to compare that to being in the thick of tech industry where you're right in the middle of the world's top companies, surrounded by lots of talent to push you further.
  - zjaffee 8y ago
    While that will always exist, the majority of people moving to the bay area are moving to work for a company like Facebook or Google rather than to work on their own startup.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    Invest in technologies and processes to make remote work a reality so you don't have to be in Silicon Valley to work there.
    - ch4s3 8y ago
      Remote work is fine, and should be more available, but agglomeration effects are real. Putting a lot of smart interesting people in a few dense places just makes sense.
    - DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
      Agreed. Imagine what might be possible if SV employers were willing to spend $15k per employee annually on making remote teams awesome, as opposed to paying (I'm just guessing) $25k/year in salary and rent to keep them in SV. I don't know what a real solution would cost, but it's a question worth asking IMO.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      The technology isn't the problem. It's the companies.
- ch4s3 8y ago
  I'm from near Research Triangle Park in NC and have to say that the weather is miserable all summer, just horrible. The traffic is abysmal, and everything is strip malls and McMansions. You can top that off with the insane gerrymandering in NC that prevents the most populace areas from having any political power. Locals are quite hostile to new-comers, and the government keeps trying to tell people which bathrooms to use which is just bizarre. Yeah, BBQ is great, the schools are good, and low taxes are nice, but NC really misses the mark for me in a lot of ways. Having grown up in the area, I am not a fan. I don't know too much about the other places.
  - electricslpnsld 8y ago
    > everything is strip malls and McMansions Say what? I visited Durham recently and had a blast -- lots of cool local businesses (Fullsteam Brewery was an amazing find) and neat old warehouses and charming old houses and such. Carrboro was also great, people biking everywhere and local hippie markets and stuff.
    - ch4s3 8y ago
      Yes, Durham is very nice (and Fullsteam is pretty great), but the part you visited is very small and not representative of the rest of the region at all. Raleigh also has a tiny, and nice downtown. However, the region is still a snarl of highways and unsustainable suburban sprawl.
- briffle 8y ago
  Minneapolis if you ignore the weather for 6 months..
- Atheros 8y ago
  Nashville, TN just voted down an important public transit initiative. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/05/what-went-wrong-with-nashvilles-transit-plan/559436/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/05/what-went-wro...
- jedberg 8y ago
  I currently live in the Bay Area. I would never even consider any of the places you just listed, due to the weather alone.
zjaffee 8y ago
> a well educated/talented work force This one is the only part that's not really possible at this time. However, if a company is willing to invest directly in growing the housing supply in the bay area, they should be willing to make the effort to try and grow talent in other parts of the country. And there are tons of other places that have some combinations of good universities, nice weather, good food and interesting cultures. Namely large parts of sunbelt region in addition to other cities which may not have as nice weather, but make up for it in business friendliness and cost of living. It's also important to remember that virtually all urban areas are liberal and diverse, even in conservative states such as Texas.
- ch4s3 8y ago
  > This one is the only part that's not really possible at this time. However, if a company is willing to invest directly in growing the housing supply in the bay area, they should be willing to make the effort to try and grow talent in other parts of the country. I don't know how to reliably "grow talent", and I'm not sure most companies would either. Building housing and attracting talent are solved problems, so why not try that first? I'm not saying companies shouldn't be in Austin or Huston, far from it. However, SF and NYC are titanic economic engines that could be even more dynamic if they had more housing. There is an obvious solution to the not enough housing problem, difficult though it may be, it's probably worth solving.
  - zjaffee 8y ago
    You're ignoring the consequences that come from building large amounts of new housing at once, I should preface this by saying I'm very much in favor of new housing just we need to be careful about it. First you grow talent the same way it grew in the bay area, by letting people work on challenging software products decade over decade. Second, population growth leads to strains on civic infrastructure which in the bay area is way under invested in. Additionally, there is a very limited amount of infil available to build new housing on, so it would require that other housing get torn down in order to build said new housing. In areas with small lots, this is harder to do because you need to buy up a bunch of surrounding properties to build a larger building. This often contributes to increased displacement as developers are buying up properties, using laws such as the ellis act to evict and redevelop properties. Oddly enough, the restricted zoning which keeps prices high, also reduces the amount of redevelopment that happens which keeps land values lower and maintains rent control that would not be allowed for new buildings under costa hawkins. Additionally, the political infeasibility of San Francisco should not be overlooked. This is a city with a long history of anti-capitalist activity and capitalists should recognize this fact and go to places that will be more accepting of their investments.
rb808 8y ago
Fine. Maybe the Bay Area is the best place for those types of people. Your illustration demonstrates why it should be more expensive to live there.
- derefr 8y ago
  More expensive, yes; exponentially more expensive, no. Those market forces alone don’t account for the cost of living; that’s entirely down to zoning laws preventing high- or even medium-rises.
- ch4s3 8y ago
  > should be more expensive to live there I didn't say anything about should or shouldn't. I was putting forth the idea that it is uniquely attractive to companies and workers. If housing were a normal market, supply would rise to meet demand, and the market could arrive at some sort of equilibrium. The present situation only serves rent seeking interests, and I believe that as a matter of public policy we should prioritize a broader set of stakeholder needs. On a macro level, prioritizing the interests of rent seekers is economically sub optimal, and transfers wealth from workers, companies, and consumers to land owners.
nradov 8y ago
Cleveland, OH meets at least most of those criteria.

394852034 8y ago

This really blows my mind. It really can't be some sort of pretension or cliquish type of instinctual herding impulse ... can it ??? I've never understood the whole concentration of the tech industry in such dense clusters, it's quite literally not only the opposite of what all the wise men predicted technology and the internet would do and is also totally contrary to some fundamental technology concepts. Talk about putting all your eggs in a basket. On the other hand, I also don't understand how other cities seem to be unable to attract a kind of threshold level of tech people to incubate something similar elsewhere. It feels like it is seriously way past due that the big tech companies get broken up and their monopolies shattered in order to allow for competition and diversification of the market.

lacker 8y ago

This problem is bigger than just Stripe's business. It hurts many Americans and the whole American economy when unemployment is 2% in San Francisco, 8% in Detroit, and yet the rent is so much more expensive in San Francisco, many people will stay jobless in a cheaper city rather than move there. source for my stats: https://www.google.com/search?q=detroit+unemployment+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=detroit+unemployment+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=san+francisco+unemployment+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=san+francisco+unemployment+r...

zjaffee 8y ago
Yes Detroit has a high unemployment rate, but it is in the best interest of companies to go to detroit, and bring their work forces with them which they are refusing to do due to the belief that you can only find talent in the bay area. I believe that this is just a self fulfilling prophecy, if companies invested in new cities, it would lead to more and more tech workers choosing to live in those places rather than in California.
- davidw 8y ago
  > bring their work forces with them You can't just shackle them up and put them on a train though. Plenty of people don't want to live in Detroit, and have other opportunities in the Bay Area or elsewhere. Perhaps they prefer the climate in CA, or perhaps they want to be someplace where there are plenty of other opportunities if the one job doesn't work out.
  - zjaffee 8y ago
    I'm not saying everyone would need to move, but if you polled your work force, and asked them if they wanted to start a new office in a new city, who would be interested in moving to which cities from a list. I'm sure you'd find enough people to start a new engineering office with at least one team. From there you can grow. This is sort of the logic I'm going by here.
    - 8y ago

pc 8y ago

> If you believe housing prices are a core problem to the growth of your business why continue to grow in the bay area rather than try and move to a less expensive region of the country? We also do that! Stripe is hiring engineers in both Seattle and Dublin, and for other roles in many other cities. Please apply :-). https://stripe.com/jobs https://stripe.com/jobs That said... this issue isn't just (or primarily) a Stripe issue. It's a broader social and economic problem. Even if Stripe is okay, we want to help fix the larger issue around us.

taurath 8y ago
Do you see any value in a bunch of companies of different specialities planting a flag somewhere and building heir own infrastructure (university, town, housing)? It feels like it could be cheaper and better for everyone’s quality of life.
- tomkarlo 8y ago
  The history of corporate funded cities (or even government planned ones) is not good. It takes far too long to generate a real community / cultural center vs. the time spans corporations want to work in. Also, the city governments would be highly inclined to align with the interests of the companies, not the residents, which is not a recipe for a fun place to live. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordl%C3%A2ndia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordl%C3%A2ndia
  - taurath 8y ago
    I’m definitely aware of the history! I’m wondering if there can be mitigation’s put in place for handle them
    - isostatic 8y ago
      Places in the UK that come to mind are railway towns -- Crewe, Swindon, Doncaster, Ashford. They all tend to be doing fine now, despite starting off as a town built around a single employer.

jpao79 8y ago

Yes, SF has physical limitations related to the geography being surrounded by water on three sides and mountains on the fourth side. Starting a 2nd Stripe Headquarters in Downtown San Jose near the proposed Didiron Transit Village like Google is would be huge [1]. Those without kids will be able to live in Downtown San Jose which is going through a mild renaissance (i.e. area around San Pedro Market) and those with kids will be able to commute in from Morgan Hill/Gilroy in 20 minutes, and Modesto in 20 minutes once HSR arrives. Execs/VCs could take Caltrain or an easy non-rush hour drive on 280 to shuttle between SF and SJ. Downtown Sacramento is also pretty happening downtown these days with a mix of trendy historical areas that could easily go hipster. And has UC Davis providing a strong student inflow to the area. [1] https://www.curbed.com/2017/12/5/16738120/google-san-jose-campus-silicon-valley https://www.curbed.com/2017/12/5/16738120/google-san-jose-ca...