15 ms·

Housing a persistent issue that comes up a lot on HN. It seems to me that as tech-workers, we feel the guilt associated with economic pressure adversely affecti

by Endama 8y ago

Housing a persistent issue that comes up a lot on HN. It seems to me that as tech-workers, we feel the guilt associated with economic pressure adversely affecting the civic-environment we coexist in but strangely feel that it is inappropriate (inconvenient?) to take part in the political machinery that addresses these tragedy-of-the-commons-type problems. Perhaps there is a collective disillusion with how slow building civic-consensus is (i.e. too much bureaucracy). For those who may feel this way, I strongly encourage your support of political action groups like YIMBY. They provide a low-cost way for you to associate yourself with a group of people focused on trying to fix NIMBY forces within the housing market.

zapita 8y ago
Also make sure to reward politicians who support Yimbi and other pro-housing policies. For example London Breed and Jeff Sheehy are both endorsed by Yimbi. If housing is important to you, make sure to take these endorsements into account in the upcoming election.
- bsimpson 8y ago
  I wish SF had a better mayoral candidate. I feel like I'm stuck choosing between sane housing policy (Breed) or sane bike/transit policy (Kim). And I'm sure there are plenty of other dimensions where they're both bad.
  - zapita 8y ago
    In my opinion housing comes first. Breed's bike policy seemed reasonable but maybe I missed something? The most critical transit issues are at the scale of the Bay area, and the SF mayor doesn't have the authority or budgets to solve them alone. That will require strong action at the state level, or the emergence of a new layer of government with the mandate and budgets to bypass the petty squabbles of cities and impose a sane bay area transit infrastructure development roadmap. One can dream...
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >That will require strong action at the state level, or the emergence of a new layer of government with the mandate and budgets to bypass the petty squabbles of cities and impose a sane bay area transit infrastructure development roadmap. One can dream... Controlling what people can and can't build on their property at the city level was created to prevent the same problems that exist on the city level back when they were on the neighborhood level. I don't see state or county level zoning as anything more than recursion that will just keep bringing the problem to a different level without solving it. The fundamental issue is that people are not allowed to or the regulations make it economically impossible to build housing at high density. I don't think adding another layer of bureaucracy will make it easier to build the necessary density of housing.
      - zapita 8y ago
        I'm not talking about housing or zoning (although in some cases state intervention can be useful there too, for different reasons), I'm talking about transit. The bay area mass transit infrastructure is a joke, it is nowhere near the level required to support its growth in population and economic activity. We need more intercity mass transit, and bay area cities have a clear track record of being incapable of building them through collaboration. They need an authority above them to make the calls and provide the funds. That is how other successful urban mega-hubs do it: Tokyo, Paris, Amsterdam, etc.
  - jdavis703 8y ago
    She actually has a fairly good track record and platform on mobility: https://medium.com/@LondonBreed/transportation-that-works-for-everyone-bd376b37279d https://medium.com/@LondonBreed/transportation-that-works-fo.... I wish she had come out with this post much earlier, but better late than never.
  - Decade 8y ago
    The tipping point for me is to consider how they do their work. London Breed is trying to make San Francisco a city for everyone, and she does not let personal feelings get in the way of good policy. Jane Kim may know how to say the right things, but get on her bad side and she will abandon your policy and destroy your company’s projects.
  - bytematic 8y ago
    This is cute. You should see the candidates in my hometown, reddest district in Wisconsin.
- golemiprague 8y ago
  That's one of the reasons I like Trump, as someone who come from the industry he is advocating policies to make it easier to build.
- jekdoce 8y ago
  Is there a list of Bay Area local politicians voting record/views on housing? Seems like a good first step in terms of organizing to vote for people that are pro building.
pchristensen 8y ago
I think more people discussing housing on HN are angry at the entrenched, intractable housing and local government cartel that is making housing so expensive. Tech workers are paid well, but a) home ownership is lower in CA + NY, b) home ownership is lower in big cities, c) home ownership skews older to begin with and that has been increasing over time, d) HN skews young and is largely people in big cities, so it's safe to assume that lots of readers are sending a big chunk of that big fat tech money to a landlord. The housing fight is largely older, wealthier, entrenched, long-term owners vs younger newcomers who haven't been able to put down roots. It's no surprise that it has been a political rout. I wish the YIMBYs well. The numbers could be on their side but the structure of the political contest is not.
- Epenthesis 8y ago
  Wait, why would “sending a big chunk of that fat tech money to a landlord” make someone not interested in fixing the housing crisis?
  - pchristensen 8y ago
    I'm saying that's why many urban tech workers are angry about housing policy, as opposed to the parent comment that suggested they feel guilty about it.
    - landryraccoon 8y ago
      Anger doesnt change anything. Activism, involvement and donations do. Young tech workers have energy, money (compared to their peers) and incentive to change the system. If they won’t act, they suffer more than anyone else.
      - lorenzq 8y ago
        Tech workers are still a minority in the bay area.
fierro 8y ago
This could not be more true
dmitrygr 8y ago
> trying to fix NIMBY forces This is probably bad word choice. If not, why is it that you feel you need to "fix" others' opinions? You believe A, they believe B (B != A). Neither needs to be fixed. They just differ. [bring on the disagreement downvotes, my point stands!]
- ixtli 8y ago
  I think opinion is not a great word to use because while, yes, people have opinions that inform their world views this is a question of action. Inaction reinforces the status quo, which is bad, and "YIMBY" people believe they have a prescription for those undesirable conditions. I guess if you accept the premise that housing is in crisis then it's not ultimately about what you believe, per say, it's about deciding on what to do. From there I think it's easy to imagine that proponents may diagnose the opposition as having drawn incorrect conclusions about the world around them that need rectifying.
  - dmitrygr 8y ago
    > if you accept the premise that housing is in crisis s/accept/believe/g
    - ixtli 8y ago
      I mean I think you know what i'm getting at here. This seems like needless hairsplitting, tbh: you either accept/believe/admit/conclude/concede that premise or you don't.
- pascalxus 8y ago
  some of Their opinions are based on mis-information (for example: that fixing housing would increase traffic, when actually the opposite is true, or that increasing the supply of housing increases prices, etc - there's an enormous amount of misinformation out there). It's like back in the 60s when people were told Smoking was healthy. many changed their opinion about smoking when they found out it wasn't actually healthy. this is why, the opinions need "fixing"
ixtli 8y ago
In my experience it's not that people feel as though it's inappropriate to participate in political machinery. They believe that "politics" are inefficient and, as such, a waste of their time. I believe the incorrect notion that "politics" can (or should be) avoided is to blame here.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  Politics can be avoided. Instead of asking for the system to do something for you, you just find a way to achieve your goals by whatever means necessary. You just think of the law as a machine to be hacked. It’s illegal to sell raw milk. I could try to convince some legislators that it’s important (not likely) or just find a way way to operate a raw milk business that doesn’t involve sales. Some problems may be temporary insoluable, but I find I have plenty of problems to solve. No use worrying about the ones that are fundamentally at odds with statutes.
  - ixtli 8y ago
    I accept this as an ideological position, though I disagree with it. I'm not sure this is the best medium to wade into the specifics but tl;r: I have found that the really interesting problems require working together with other people and sometimes to do so you must act against your own immediate self interests. I also think this type of extreme individualism starts to fall apart when someone starts to act in a way that causes you or others indirect harm and you want to get them to stop. That said laws are the programming language of our society! People should never imagine them to be anything else. I think, and I don't mean this in an aggressive way, that when you talk about "hacking" laws you're simply engaging in politics :) Albeit with a starkly different ideological grounding and aesthetics. The reason I put that word in quotes in the comment you responded to was to imply suspicion about reductive definitions of the term that seem to categorize it only as "something that happens on the senate floor."
zjaffee 8y ago
I have to disagree with this statement. Tech workers may feel the guilt, but many of the YIMBYs have no care in the world for the people they may be displacing, are in favor of removing rent control because it would then give poorer residents the skin in the game needed for them to demand more housing. I can go on and on about this. Yes NIMBYism is a problem, but this goes well beyond the more market rate housing debate, people being against public transit improvements, housing for the homeless, and clinic for drug addicts are ones that come to mind.
- epistasis 8y ago
  That is definitely not true at all the leadership level (ie podcasts, official communications. In my experience it's not at all true at the local either. However, it is a common mischaracterization by outsiders that reflexively oppose YIMBY. For a while, it was common to say that YIMBYs opposes BMR and affordable housing in general, which is completely untrue. I guess it's shifted now to say that YIMBYs are pro-gentrification instead, which is absolutely counter to any high level communication or leadership discussion I've heard, or any local desires. If you have links to such statements, or people that I can talk to, I'd love to jump in on that discussion and point out with documentation how that supposed YIMBY is not representing a YIMBY viewpoint.
  - zjaffee 8y ago
    Yes, the group California Yimby supports these things, but it absolutely hurts the Yimby movements credibility where they have allows people who spew the "Luxury housing will trickle prices down to the poor" shpiel are given a platform by them to display their beliefs. At best, any new construction that impacts costs will just lead to more upper middle class tech workers being in the bay area while continuing with the current pace of displacement we've seen already. YIMBYism isn't pro gentrification, but those who are pro gentrification will always be YIMBYs. And I can't provide direct links, just this sort of thing is all over YIMBY/NIMBY/PHIMBY facebook and twitter.
    - epistasis 8y ago
pm90 8y ago
Tech workers can generally find private sector jobs that pay an incredible amount of money. This naturally discourages them from seeking Government jobs which tend to pay less (and most of the times have an inflexible, bureaucratic nature). But I agree with participation in that we should be voting and funding political programs that we believe in.
pascalxus 8y ago
I don't think it has anything to do with guilt. Housing costs affect people across the entire income spectrum. those paid the least have few if no options other than to win the housing lottery. Those paid the most, will also pay the most for housing too: because those jobs are only in places where houses are more than 2 million a piece. It' a problem for everyone who doesn't own a house yet.
mleonhard 8y ago
SF YIMBY endorses London Breed for Mayor. You can volunteer to help get her elected: """ Phone Banking: This is one of the best ways to get out the vote, and a really nice opportunity to chat with other San Franciscans. We'll be phone banking every Tuesday & Thursday from 6 - 8:30 at YIMBY headquarters (1260 Mission St) from now through the 31st to help get out the vote for London. May 12th Event: Campaign event with YIMBY & London Saturday May 12, 11:30-1:30 at the Mission Bay food trucks near the ballpark. (601 Mission Bay Blvd) Slate Card: A great tool for talking with your friends about the YIMBY's endorsements for the June ballot. Available on our website, here: https://yimbyaction.org/endorsements/ https://yimbyaction.org/endorsements/ Ballots go out next week and we'd love your help getting the word about the election - hope you can join us! """

by Endama 8y ago

zapita 8y ago

Also make sure to reward politicians who support Yimbi and other pro-housing policies. For example London Breed and Jeff Sheehy are both endorsed by Yimbi. If housing is important to you, make sure to take these endorsements into account in the upcoming election.

bsimpson 8y ago
I wish SF had a better mayoral candidate. I feel like I'm stuck choosing between sane housing policy (Breed) or sane bike/transit policy (Kim). And I'm sure there are plenty of other dimensions where they're both bad.
- zapita 8y ago
  In my opinion housing comes first. Breed's bike policy seemed reasonable but maybe I missed something? The most critical transit issues are at the scale of the Bay area, and the SF mayor doesn't have the authority or budgets to solve them alone. That will require strong action at the state level, or the emergence of a new layer of government with the mandate and budgets to bypass the petty squabbles of cities and impose a sane bay area transit infrastructure development roadmap. One can dream...
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >That will require strong action at the state level, or the emergence of a new layer of government with the mandate and budgets to bypass the petty squabbles of cities and impose a sane bay area transit infrastructure development roadmap. One can dream... Controlling what people can and can't build on their property at the city level was created to prevent the same problems that exist on the city level back when they were on the neighborhood level. I don't see state or county level zoning as anything more than recursion that will just keep bringing the problem to a different level without solving it. The fundamental issue is that people are not allowed to or the regulations make it economically impossible to build housing at high density. I don't think adding another layer of bureaucracy will make it easier to build the necessary density of housing.
    - zapita 8y ago
      I'm not talking about housing or zoning (although in some cases state intervention can be useful there too, for different reasons), I'm talking about transit. The bay area mass transit infrastructure is a joke, it is nowhere near the level required to support its growth in population and economic activity. We need more intercity mass transit, and bay area cities have a clear track record of being incapable of building them through collaboration. They need an authority above them to make the calls and provide the funds. That is how other successful urban mega-hubs do it: Tokyo, Paris, Amsterdam, etc.
- jdavis703 8y ago
  She actually has a fairly good track record and platform on mobility: https://medium.com/@LondonBreed/transportation-that-works-for-everyone-bd376b37279d https://medium.com/@LondonBreed/transportation-that-works-fo.... I wish she had come out with this post much earlier, but better late than never.
- Decade 8y ago
  The tipping point for me is to consider how they do their work. London Breed is trying to make San Francisco a city for everyone, and she does not let personal feelings get in the way of good policy. Jane Kim may know how to say the right things, but get on her bad side and she will abandon your policy and destroy your company’s projects.
- bytematic 8y ago
  This is cute. You should see the candidates in my hometown, reddest district in Wisconsin.
golemiprague 8y ago
That's one of the reasons I like Trump, as someone who come from the industry he is advocating policies to make it easier to build.
jekdoce 8y ago
Is there a list of Bay Area local politicians voting record/views on housing? Seems like a good first step in terms of organizing to vote for people that are pro building.

pchristensen 8y ago

I think more people discussing housing on HN are angry at the entrenched, intractable housing and local government cartel that is making housing so expensive. Tech workers are paid well, but a) home ownership is lower in CA + NY, b) home ownership is lower in big cities, c) home ownership skews older to begin with and that has been increasing over time, d) HN skews young and is largely people in big cities, so it's safe to assume that lots of readers are sending a big chunk of that big fat tech money to a landlord. The housing fight is largely older, wealthier, entrenched, long-term owners vs younger newcomers who haven't been able to put down roots. It's no surprise that it has been a political rout. I wish the YIMBYs well. The numbers could be on their side but the structure of the political contest is not.

Epenthesis 8y ago
Wait, why would “sending a big chunk of that fat tech money to a landlord” make someone not interested in fixing the housing crisis?
- pchristensen 8y ago
  I'm saying that's why many urban tech workers are angry about housing policy, as opposed to the parent comment that suggested they feel guilty about it.
  - landryraccoon 8y ago
    Anger doesnt change anything. Activism, involvement and donations do. Young tech workers have energy, money (compared to their peers) and incentive to change the system. If they won’t act, they suffer more than anyone else.
    - lorenzq 8y ago
      Tech workers are still a minority in the bay area.

fierro 8y ago

This could not be more true

dmitrygr 8y ago

> trying to fix NIMBY forces This is probably bad word choice. If not, why is it that you feel you need to "fix" others' opinions? You believe A, they believe B (B != A). Neither needs to be fixed. They just differ. [bring on the disagreement downvotes, my point stands!]

ixtli 8y ago
I think opinion is not a great word to use because while, yes, people have opinions that inform their world views this is a question of action. Inaction reinforces the status quo, which is bad, and "YIMBY" people believe they have a prescription for those undesirable conditions. I guess if you accept the premise that housing is in crisis then it's not ultimately about what you believe, per say, it's about deciding on what to do. From there I think it's easy to imagine that proponents may diagnose the opposition as having drawn incorrect conclusions about the world around them that need rectifying.
- dmitrygr 8y ago
  > if you accept the premise that housing is in crisis s/accept/believe/g
  - ixtli 8y ago
    I mean I think you know what i'm getting at here. This seems like needless hairsplitting, tbh: you either accept/believe/admit/conclude/concede that premise or you don't.
pascalxus 8y ago
some of Their opinions are based on mis-information (for example: that fixing housing would increase traffic, when actually the opposite is true, or that increasing the supply of housing increases prices, etc - there's an enormous amount of misinformation out there). It's like back in the 60s when people were told Smoking was healthy. many changed their opinion about smoking when they found out it wasn't actually healthy. this is why, the opinions need "fixing"

ixtli 8y ago

In my experience it's not that people feel as though it's inappropriate to participate in political machinery. They believe that "politics" are inefficient and, as such, a waste of their time. I believe the incorrect notion that "politics" can (or should be) avoided is to blame here.

erikpukinskis 8y ago
Politics can be avoided. Instead of asking for the system to do something for you, you just find a way to achieve your goals by whatever means necessary. You just think of the law as a machine to be hacked. It’s illegal to sell raw milk. I could try to convince some legislators that it’s important (not likely) or just find a way way to operate a raw milk business that doesn’t involve sales. Some problems may be temporary insoluable, but I find I have plenty of problems to solve. No use worrying about the ones that are fundamentally at odds with statutes.
- ixtli 8y ago
  I accept this as an ideological position, though I disagree with it. I'm not sure this is the best medium to wade into the specifics but tl;r: I have found that the really interesting problems require working together with other people and sometimes to do so you must act against your own immediate self interests. I also think this type of extreme individualism starts to fall apart when someone starts to act in a way that causes you or others indirect harm and you want to get them to stop. That said laws are the programming language of our society! People should never imagine them to be anything else. I think, and I don't mean this in an aggressive way, that when you talk about "hacking" laws you're simply engaging in politics :) Albeit with a starkly different ideological grounding and aesthetics. The reason I put that word in quotes in the comment you responded to was to imply suspicion about reductive definitions of the term that seem to categorize it only as "something that happens on the senate floor."

zjaffee 8y ago

I have to disagree with this statement. Tech workers may feel the guilt, but many of the YIMBYs have no care in the world for the people they may be displacing, are in favor of removing rent control because it would then give poorer residents the skin in the game needed for them to demand more housing. I can go on and on about this. Yes NIMBYism is a problem, but this goes well beyond the more market rate housing debate, people being against public transit improvements, housing for the homeless, and clinic for drug addicts are ones that come to mind.

epistasis 8y ago
That is definitely not true at all the leadership level (ie podcasts, official communications. In my experience it's not at all true at the local either. However, it is a common mischaracterization by outsiders that reflexively oppose YIMBY. For a while, it was common to say that YIMBYs opposes BMR and affordable housing in general, which is completely untrue. I guess it's shifted now to say that YIMBYs are pro-gentrification instead, which is absolutely counter to any high level communication or leadership discussion I've heard, or any local desires. If you have links to such statements, or people that I can talk to, I'd love to jump in on that discussion and point out with documentation how that supposed YIMBY is not representing a YIMBY viewpoint.
- zjaffee 8y ago
  Yes, the group California Yimby supports these things, but it absolutely hurts the Yimby movements credibility where they have allows people who spew the "Luxury housing will trickle prices down to the poor" shpiel are given a platform by them to display their beliefs. At best, any new construction that impacts costs will just lead to more upper middle class tech workers being in the bay area while continuing with the current pace of displacement we've seen already. YIMBYism isn't pro gentrification, but those who are pro gentrification will always be YIMBYs. And I can't provide direct links, just this sort of thing is all over YIMBY/NIMBY/PHIMBY facebook and twitter.
  - epistasis 8y ago

pm90 8y ago

Tech workers can generally find private sector jobs that pay an incredible amount of money. This naturally discourages them from seeking Government jobs which tend to pay less (and most of the times have an inflexible, bureaucratic nature). But I agree with participation in that we should be voting and funding political programs that we believe in.

pascalxus 8y ago

I don't think it has anything to do with guilt. Housing costs affect people across the entire income spectrum. those paid the least have few if no options other than to win the housing lottery. Those paid the most, will also pay the most for housing too: because those jobs are only in places where houses are more than 2 million a piece. It' a problem for everyone who doesn't own a house yet.

mleonhard 8y ago

SF YIMBY endorses London Breed for Mayor. You can volunteer to help get her elected: """ Phone Banking: This is one of the best ways to get out the vote, and a really nice opportunity to chat with other San Franciscans. We'll be phone banking every Tuesday & Thursday from 6 - 8:30 at YIMBY headquarters (1260 Mission St) from now through the 31st to help get out the vote for London. May 12th Event: Campaign event with YIMBY & London Saturday May 12, 11:30-1:30 at the Mission Bay food trucks near the ballpark. (601 Mission Bay Blvd) Slate Card: A great tool for talking with your friends about the YIMBY's endorsements for the June ballot. Available on our website, here: https://yimbyaction.org/endorsements/ https://yimbyaction.org/endorsements/ Ballots go out next week and we'd love your help getting the word about the election - hope you can join us! """