4 ms·

No - to be on the dole you need to be actively searching for a job in most jurisdictions in Europe. E.g. in the UK you need to go down to the job center every w

No - to be on the dole you need to be actively searching for a job in most jurisdictions in Europe. E.g. in the UK you need to go down to the job center every week and prove you're searching for a job in order to claim unemployment benefit. It's literally called jobseeker's allowance to reflect that. Also what is a "government job market program"? Are you referring to a government employing people en masse to inflate the employment rate? You generally need taxes to do that so it's probably a legitimate approach.

DanBC 8y ago
JSA is being replaced by universal credit. People on UC need to spend 35 hours per week on their job search, and they need to be able to demonstrate this. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-your-claimant-commitment-quick-guide/universal-credit-and-your-claimant-commitment https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-... > You should think of jobseeking as a full-time job. You will be expected to look or prepare for work for 35 hours a week, depending on your circumstances. This requirement is robustly enforced. I mention this because there are some people in the UK who think that unemployed people in the UK can get away with not doing anything.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Dishonest unemployed people can get away with doing virtually nothing (or doing undisclosed work), most of the time, no?
  - gpvos 8y ago
    Citation needed. A small minority maybe. Dishonesty can be hard work.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      I'm not saying it's widespread, nor necessarily that easy (I don't know) but every few weeks I'm looking at our local news online and there's a story of someone claiming jobseekers, housing benefit, disability or attendance allowances, and they're working (and paying taxes it seems, so it should have been easy to catch them). 5s Google - http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern-ireland-news/243195/other-news-in-brief http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern-ireland-news/243195/other-news..., some guy claiming whilst working. Assuming not all cases are found - and stories I've seen in the past have been of people caught after well over a year of false claims - then it seems perfectly doable for those who are dishonest (through necessity or otherwise).
      - DanBC 8y ago
        The rate of fraud on benefits is really low. Yes, it does happen, and a few people do get away with it for a long time. But it's wrong to suggest that it's widespread, and doing so causes harm because it encourages the Hostile Environment stuff. Looking at your link, these people were caught reasonably quickly. One of the people in your link managed to claim just £231. At his age he'd be getting £73 per week, so he fraudulently claimed less than a month. It's harder to work out the other person, because they were also claiming housing benefit. He lived at Ballysillan Crescent, Belfast, which is a B14 post code. Local housing allowance rates are https://www.nihe.gov.uk/index/benefits/lha/current_lha_rates.htm https://www.nihe.gov.uk/index/benefits/lha/current_lha_rates... Here's that street on Google maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.6291805,-5.9663763,3a,75y,30.48h,92.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj1TywIFqVppVVd7--wbgOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.6291805,-5.9663763,3a,75y,... Let's take the one bedroom rate of £86.16 per week, plus £73.10 per week = £159.26 per week. (this assumes he claims as a single person, and it lowers the weekly amount. I do this because I want to maximise the time he claimed for as a worst case). £4,114 / £159 = = 25 weeks. So, about 6 months. If he was claiming the 2 bedroom rate, or was claiming JSA as a couple he would have got more moeny per week, and so was caught much quicker. You'll find similar in the other cases. People try it and they usually get caught within a year.
        pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        I don't think I said it was widespread, or anything to indicate that? I've been on Jobseekers and am likely to be again: yes we should guard against creating a hostile environment and assuming everyone is on the make, but pretending there's no fraud at all is surely not the way. Are few people dishonest, or are most dishonest people caught. My concern is if the system encourages moral compromise for survival and what this means for our society as a whole.
  - vertex-four 8y ago
    In my experience, it is much more common that the job centre will refuse to believe those who are seeking work but can’t find it, than that people attempt to defraud the job centre.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    If you don't get a job you're expected to take part in the Work Programme so no, people can't get away with doing nothing. It's very hard to do undisclosed work because cash in hand work has been made much harder to get. It's pretty hard to get away with doing nothing because your jobsearch is now online. You use DWP websites to record all your job searching. People may get away with it for a few weeks, but they're not going to get away with it for long. We've heard a lot about the Hostile Environment. People think it just applies to Windrush, or maybe only to immigration. That's incorrect. It's a wide ranging policy and it fully applies to all benefits. That's why so many decisions are being overturned at first tier tribunal - the quality of decision making is piss poor and it's likely some of that is a deliberate choice.
- dazc 8y ago
  "..some people in the UK who think that unemployed people in the UK can get away with not doing anything." As someone who was unemployed for a while in the late 90's, it was possible. I believe the system is a lot stricter now but a lot of people base their ideas on past experience. I have a friend who has been long-term unemployed due to health reasons. He has to attend courses and such from time to time, which he actually enjoys because he would like to work. He does a bit of voluntary work too. The story all seems to be the same though, on the first day there are maybe 20 people who turn up and by the end of the week most of them have dropped out. I don't know the facts but, just guessing, maybe there are still ways of playing the system?
  - DanBC 8y ago
    It's really hard to play the system. Here's someone who was signed off work for heart problems. He had to have an independent medical (because DWP doesn't believe doctors) before he could claim disability benefits. During the independent medical he had a heart attack. The healthcare professional had to stop the assessment and call for an ambo. The ambo staff arrived, and took him to hospital. To you or me this is proof that he wasn't faking his heart problems and he is genuinely ill. To the DWP it's failure to complete an assessment, and he was sanctioned for this non-completion. (Read the Debbie Abrahams comments here: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm130319/debtext/130319-0002.htm#column_839 https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm13... ) There are literally thousands of these. So, while it's possible to defraud benefits it's not easy, and it's not common. It's certainly much tighter than it used to be in the 90s.
nspattak 8y ago
Reporting from Greece: 1) most unemployed people are not entitled to any kind of allowance. There are big groups of unemployed people (women, people aged 50+, specialized workers eg constructor workers ) who have given up the hope to find a job except from some occasional paydays (most likely black labor) which they may find from word of mouth. They do not bother going to the "job center/unemployment office". 2) The unemployment office arranges for "training" where groups of unemployed people can attend. The attendants are paid like a 100-300e per month for 1-6 months. During these (otherwise useless) trainings these people are no longer considered unemployed and one can read these disgusting news titles "unemployment down to 30% from 31.5%". I myself was never counted as an unemployed in Greece until I found my first position (in the UK as an engineer mind you... )

DanBC 8y ago

JSA is being replaced by universal credit. People on UC need to spend 35 hours per week on their job search, and they need to be able to demonstrate this. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-your-claimant-commitment-quick-guide/universal-credit-and-your-claimant-commitment https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-... > You should think of jobseeking as a full-time job. You will be expected to look or prepare for work for 35 hours a week, depending on your circumstances. This requirement is robustly enforced. I mention this because there are some people in the UK who think that unemployed people in the UK can get away with not doing anything.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Dishonest unemployed people can get away with doing virtually nothing (or doing undisclosed work), most of the time, no?
- gpvos 8y ago
  Citation needed. A small minority maybe. Dishonesty can be hard work.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    I'm not saying it's widespread, nor necessarily that easy (I don't know) but every few weeks I'm looking at our local news online and there's a story of someone claiming jobseekers, housing benefit, disability or attendance allowances, and they're working (and paying taxes it seems, so it should have been easy to catch them). 5s Google - http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern-ireland-news/243195/other-news-in-brief http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern-ireland-news/243195/other-news..., some guy claiming whilst working. Assuming not all cases are found - and stories I've seen in the past have been of people caught after well over a year of false claims - then it seems perfectly doable for those who are dishonest (through necessity or otherwise).
    - DanBC 8y ago
      The rate of fraud on benefits is really low. Yes, it does happen, and a few people do get away with it for a long time. But it's wrong to suggest that it's widespread, and doing so causes harm because it encourages the Hostile Environment stuff. Looking at your link, these people were caught reasonably quickly. One of the people in your link managed to claim just £231. At his age he'd be getting £73 per week, so he fraudulently claimed less than a month. It's harder to work out the other person, because they were also claiming housing benefit. He lived at Ballysillan Crescent, Belfast, which is a B14 post code. Local housing allowance rates are https://www.nihe.gov.uk/index/benefits/lha/current_lha_rates.htm https://www.nihe.gov.uk/index/benefits/lha/current_lha_rates... Here's that street on Google maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.6291805,-5.9663763,3a,75y,30.48h,92.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj1TywIFqVppVVd7--wbgOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.6291805,-5.9663763,3a,75y,... Let's take the one bedroom rate of £86.16 per week, plus £73.10 per week = £159.26 per week. (this assumes he claims as a single person, and it lowers the weekly amount. I do this because I want to maximise the time he claimed for as a worst case). £4,114 / £159 = = 25 weeks. So, about 6 months. If he was claiming the 2 bedroom rate, or was claiming JSA as a couple he would have got more moeny per week, and so was caught much quicker. You'll find similar in the other cases. People try it and they usually get caught within a year.
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        I don't think I said it was widespread, or anything to indicate that? I've been on Jobseekers and am likely to be again: yes we should guard against creating a hostile environment and assuming everyone is on the make, but pretending there's no fraud at all is surely not the way. Are few people dishonest, or are most dishonest people caught. My concern is if the system encourages moral compromise for survival and what this means for our society as a whole.
- vertex-four 8y ago
  In my experience, it is much more common that the job centre will refuse to believe those who are seeking work but can’t find it, than that people attempt to defraud the job centre.
- DanBC 8y ago
  If you don't get a job you're expected to take part in the Work Programme so no, people can't get away with doing nothing. It's very hard to do undisclosed work because cash in hand work has been made much harder to get. It's pretty hard to get away with doing nothing because your jobsearch is now online. You use DWP websites to record all your job searching. People may get away with it for a few weeks, but they're not going to get away with it for long. We've heard a lot about the Hostile Environment. People think it just applies to Windrush, or maybe only to immigration. That's incorrect. It's a wide ranging policy and it fully applies to all benefits. That's why so many decisions are being overturned at first tier tribunal - the quality of decision making is piss poor and it's likely some of that is a deliberate choice.
dazc 8y ago
"..some people in the UK who think that unemployed people in the UK can get away with not doing anything." As someone who was unemployed for a while in the late 90's, it was possible. I believe the system is a lot stricter now but a lot of people base their ideas on past experience. I have a friend who has been long-term unemployed due to health reasons. He has to attend courses and such from time to time, which he actually enjoys because he would like to work. He does a bit of voluntary work too. The story all seems to be the same though, on the first day there are maybe 20 people who turn up and by the end of the week most of them have dropped out. I don't know the facts but, just guessing, maybe there are still ways of playing the system?
- DanBC 8y ago
  It's really hard to play the system. Here's someone who was signed off work for heart problems. He had to have an independent medical (because DWP doesn't believe doctors) before he could claim disability benefits. During the independent medical he had a heart attack. The healthcare professional had to stop the assessment and call for an ambo. The ambo staff arrived, and took him to hospital. To you or me this is proof that he wasn't faking his heart problems and he is genuinely ill. To the DWP it's failure to complete an assessment, and he was sanctioned for this non-completion. (Read the Debbie Abrahams comments here: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm130319/debtext/130319-0002.htm#column_839 https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm13... ) There are literally thousands of these. So, while it's possible to defraud benefits it's not easy, and it's not common. It's certainly much tighter than it used to be in the 90s.

nspattak 8y ago

Reporting from Greece: 1) most unemployed people are not entitled to any kind of allowance. There are big groups of unemployed people (women, people aged 50+, specialized workers eg constructor workers ) who have given up the hope to find a job except from some occasional paydays (most likely black labor) which they may find from word of mouth. They do not bother going to the "job center/unemployment office". 2) The unemployment office arranges for "training" where groups of unemployed people can attend. The attendants are paid like a 100-300e per month for 1-6 months. During these (otherwise useless) trainings these people are no longer considered unemployed and one can read these disgusting news titles "unemployment down to 30% from 31.5%". I myself was never counted as an unemployed in Greece until I found my first position (in the UK as an engineer mind you... )