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Yeah, the play store of websites. Where we need to get permissions and approvals and can get banned. No thanks, Google is trying to bring their walled garden id

Yeah, the play store of websites. Where we need to get permissions and approvals and can get banned. No thanks, Google is trying to bring their walled garden idea for websites. Don't trust Google on this. They just turned off their service rather than support signal, what if signal was signal.app would they block em? Don't trust Google on this. It's a decent idea but no.

s2g 9y ago
Makes sense, given their mission to monopolize the internet. Break up google.
brlewis 9y ago
Is there any precedent for a TLD owner doing what you describe? I think this is HSTS preload and nothing more.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  ICANN has hundreds (thousands?) of pages of rules and procedures relating to the ngTLD program detailing exactly how all of this plays out. Spoiler alert: There's not and can't be.
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  Yes: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/daily-stormer-being-dumped-by-godaddy-apparently-seized-by-anonymous/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/daily-stormer-being-dumped-by-go... https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/godaddy-boots-the-daily-stormer-because-of-what-it-wrote-about-charlottesville-victim.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/godaddy-boots-the-daily-stor...
  - edem 9y ago
    They violated terms of use. What's the problem?
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      No problem. I was just answering parent's question about precedent.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    Both of those are articles are about registrars refusing to do business with one specific hate group. They're not about registries.
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      Aren't Google and Godaddy both TLD owners?
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        GoDaddy is a registrar. Google has both a registrar and a registry, but the linked actions were taken on the registrar side (i.e. not relevant to what the registry can do with its TLDs). The list of TLDs run by the registry can be found here: https://www.registry.google https://www.registry.google
      - bastawhiz 9y ago
        Yes, technically. But GoDaddy's GTLD (.godaddy) isn't available for public use, so your point is moot.
        dingo_bat 9y ago
        My point is that google will ban your website off the internet in whatever way possible for them, if they don't agree with what you're saying. They have demonstrated this as I linked. Just because their role is now TLD owner, doesn't mean they will not do what they think is necessary.
    - cookiecaper 9y ago
      Yes, but that still represents a very serious problem. The EFF has written extensively on it since this occurred in August. Here's a starting point: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/eff-icanns-registrars-dont-pick-censors-pen https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/eff-icanns-registrars-.... ICANN has worked very well so far, but if they don't put up a strong response to registrar-based censorship on already-registered domains and make this contractually impossible, the internet is going to be in big trouble. We can't let "you can't have a domain because we don't want you to be able to talk, as a matter of corporate policy" become a thing.
- therealmarv 9y ago
  yes, there are many domains which describe what is acceptable and what not on their usage policy or terms.
la6470 9y ago
This is as usual skewed towards big players with lot of money to dump into buying every available .app domain to make some fucking money. As usual the small guys have no chances and it is not first come first serve only. Google just pays lip service but they are just a fucking bunch of liars.
zouhair 9y ago
You mean Signal the messaging app? Can you link to a news?
- jperras 9y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17308508/amazon-web-services-signal-domain-fronting-ban-response https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17308508/amazon-web-servic... https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/18/17253784/google-domain-fronting-discontinued-signal-tor-vpn https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/18/17253784/google-domain-fr...
  - zouhair 9y ago
    Jesus, now Signal is useless.
    - beojan 9y ago
      Only if you live somewhere that blocks it. And I suspect even then, you could still use a Signal server hosted by someone else.
      - acct1771 9y ago
        Not with the official client.
  - ehsankia 9y ago
    I don't understand why Google or Amazon are to blame here. It's like using an unofficial API and then complaining when it's taken down. Yes, it sucks that Signal can't hide behind them to bypass censorship, but as far as I understanding, it's not a good practice for these big sites to support Domain fronting in the first place.
amelius 9y ago
> No thanks, Google is trying to bring their walled garden idea for websites. It might affect your app's search rank if you don't comply ...
- letsgetphysITal 9y ago
  I've used DuckDuckGo for months. Only the very most esoteric of terms brings me back to Google, and I can count those times in the past months on one hand.
  - amelius 9y ago
    Yes, but good luck convincing the (potential) users of your app :)
    - giblaz 9y ago
      It's certainly an issue to consider if you're starting a company. If you are creating a organization that is less focused on making money as a core element like a business is, then you should feel fine using .org or any other domain.
therealmarv 9y ago
Actually I was searching for Terms of Service and Acceptable usage policy for .app domains and could find NOTHING specific. Not even on official site https://get.app/ https://get.app/ I could only find Google Terms of Services, so they also apply to .app ??? So what if I host e.g. adult related material on .app will they ban me? The usage policy is totally in the dark for this domain. UPDATE: Found something here https://v4.gandi.net/static/contracts/en/app/pdf/special_conditions_APP_1.0.pdf https://v4.gandi.net/static/contracts/en/app/pdf/special_con... and here https://portal.icann.org/servlet/servlet.FileDownload?file=00P6100000NjL8nEAF https://portal.icann.org/servlet/servlet.FileDownload?file=0...
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  Good sleuthing. ICANN's site can be arcane to navigate at times (like Dell's or Microsoft's).
ganeshkrishnan 9y ago
It's weird how Facebook is getting all the heat but Google is the real snake in the grass. When Google bans you, they delete your drive, Gmail, photos and everything associated with it including the ability to search. Also they are associative; if one of your accounts are banned then any account, even business accounts, are all purged. One of a startup in my previous cohort was completely deleted after one of it's employees who had a banned Google account logged into Google for business Don't risk. Avoid
- Can_Not 9y ago
  Are you saying that Google banned the whole organization based on the association of one employee with a banned account? And they withheld your data with no recourse? Did you consult a lawyer?
  - ganeshkrishnan 9y ago
    It's a widespread issue: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/04/life_without_google_when_my_account_was_suspended_i_felt_like_i_d_been_dumped.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/0... https://www.perrymarshall.com/2270/google-bans-your-account/ https://www.perrymarshall.com/2270/google-bans-your-account/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/7nrx07/google_permanently_banned_my_account_because https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/7nrx07/google_... Just curious, how can you even get a lawyer for issues like this? And in US it would all be a sham show (like the Zuckerberg senate hearing)
    - Can_Not 9y ago
      I was specifically asking about the business's organization being shut down because of an employee's unrelated banning.
      - ganeshkrishnan 9y ago
        It was a startup. I don't think they could afford it

s2g 9y ago

Makes sense, given their mission to monopolize the internet. Break up google.

brlewis 9y ago

Is there any precedent for a TLD owner doing what you describe? I think this is HSTS preload and nothing more.

CydeWeys 9y ago
ICANN has hundreds (thousands?) of pages of rules and procedures relating to the ngTLD program detailing exactly how all of this plays out. Spoiler alert: There's not and can't be.
dingo_bat 9y ago
Yes: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/daily-stormer-being-dumped-by-godaddy-apparently-seized-by-anonymous/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/daily-stormer-being-dumped-by-go... https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/godaddy-boots-the-daily-stormer-because-of-what-it-wrote-about-charlottesville-victim.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/godaddy-boots-the-daily-stor...
- edem 9y ago
  They violated terms of use. What's the problem?
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    No problem. I was just answering parent's question about precedent.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  Both of those are articles are about registrars refusing to do business with one specific hate group. They're not about registries.
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    Aren't Google and Godaddy both TLD owners?
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      GoDaddy is a registrar. Google has both a registrar and a registry, but the linked actions were taken on the registrar side (i.e. not relevant to what the registry can do with its TLDs). The list of TLDs run by the registry can be found here: https://www.registry.google https://www.registry.google
    - bastawhiz 9y ago
      Yes, technically. But GoDaddy's GTLD (.godaddy) isn't available for public use, so your point is moot.
      - dingo_bat 9y ago
        My point is that google will ban your website off the internet in whatever way possible for them, if they don't agree with what you're saying. They have demonstrated this as I linked. Just because their role is now TLD owner, doesn't mean they will not do what they think is necessary.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    Yes, but that still represents a very serious problem. The EFF has written extensively on it since this occurred in August. Here's a starting point: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/eff-icanns-registrars-dont-pick-censors-pen https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/eff-icanns-registrars-.... ICANN has worked very well so far, but if they don't put up a strong response to registrar-based censorship on already-registered domains and make this contractually impossible, the internet is going to be in big trouble. We can't let "you can't have a domain because we don't want you to be able to talk, as a matter of corporate policy" become a thing.
therealmarv 9y ago
yes, there are many domains which describe what is acceptable and what not on their usage policy or terms.

la6470 9y ago

This is as usual skewed towards big players with lot of money to dump into buying every available .app domain to make some fucking money. As usual the small guys have no chances and it is not first come first serve only. Google just pays lip service but they are just a fucking bunch of liars.

zouhair 9y ago

You mean Signal the messaging app? Can you link to a news?

jperras 9y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17308508/amazon-web-services-signal-domain-fronting-ban-response https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17308508/amazon-web-servic... https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/18/17253784/google-domain-fronting-discontinued-signal-tor-vpn https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/18/17253784/google-domain-fr...
- zouhair 9y ago
  Jesus, now Signal is useless.
  - beojan 9y ago
    Only if you live somewhere that blocks it. And I suspect even then, you could still use a Signal server hosted by someone else.
    - acct1771 9y ago
      Not with the official client.
- ehsankia 9y ago
  I don't understand why Google or Amazon are to blame here. It's like using an unofficial API and then complaining when it's taken down. Yes, it sucks that Signal can't hide behind them to bypass censorship, but as far as I understanding, it's not a good practice for these big sites to support Domain fronting in the first place.

amelius 9y ago

> No thanks, Google is trying to bring their walled garden idea for websites. It might affect your app's search rank if you don't comply ...

letsgetphysITal 9y ago
I've used DuckDuckGo for months. Only the very most esoteric of terms brings me back to Google, and I can count those times in the past months on one hand.
- amelius 9y ago
  Yes, but good luck convincing the (potential) users of your app :)
  - giblaz 9y ago
    It's certainly an issue to consider if you're starting a company. If you are creating a organization that is less focused on making money as a core element like a business is, then you should feel fine using .org or any other domain.

therealmarv 9y ago

Actually I was searching for Terms of Service and Acceptable usage policy for .app domains and could find NOTHING specific. Not even on official site https://get.app/ https://get.app/ I could only find Google Terms of Services, so they also apply to .app ??? So what if I host e.g. adult related material on .app will they ban me? The usage policy is totally in the dark for this domain. UPDATE: Found something here https://v4.gandi.net/static/contracts/en/app/pdf/special_conditions_APP_1.0.pdf https://v4.gandi.net/static/contracts/en/app/pdf/special_con... and here https://portal.icann.org/servlet/servlet.FileDownload?file=00P6100000NjL8nEAF https://portal.icann.org/servlet/servlet.FileDownload?file=0...

CydeWeys 9y ago
Good sleuthing. ICANN's site can be arcane to navigate at times (like Dell's or Microsoft's).

ganeshkrishnan 9y ago

It's weird how Facebook is getting all the heat but Google is the real snake in the grass. When Google bans you, they delete your drive, Gmail, photos and everything associated with it including the ability to search. Also they are associative; if one of your accounts are banned then any account, even business accounts, are all purged. One of a startup in my previous cohort was completely deleted after one of it's employees who had a banned Google account logged into Google for business Don't risk. Avoid

Can_Not 9y ago
Are you saying that Google banned the whole organization based on the association of one employee with a banned account? And they withheld your data with no recourse? Did you consult a lawyer?
- ganeshkrishnan 9y ago
  It's a widespread issue: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/04/life_without_google_when_my_account_was_suspended_i_felt_like_i_d_been_dumped.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/0... https://www.perrymarshall.com/2270/google-bans-your-account/ https://www.perrymarshall.com/2270/google-bans-your-account/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/7nrx07/google_permanently_banned_my_account_because https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/7nrx07/google_... Just curious, how can you even get a lawyer for issues like this? And in US it would all be a sham show (like the Zuckerberg senate hearing)
  - Can_Not 9y ago
    I was specifically asking about the business's organization being shut down because of an employee's unrelated banning.
    - ganeshkrishnan 9y ago
      It was a startup. I don't think they could afford it