5 ms·

Having been at the tail end of the age group that missed the normalization of 'likes' as a legitimate asset to accumulate, I'm curious what the turning point wa

Having been at the tail end of the age group that missed the normalization of 'likes' as a legitimate asset to accumulate, I'm curious what the turning point was when people no longer felt self conscious to openly admitting to collecting these virtual assets? Startups, media campaigns etc, we understood why they were doing it, money. But for most social-media users, that's obviously not the case. I'll admit, when I had a facebook account I felt vulnerable when a post of mine didn't get too many likes but it was considered 'lame' to worry about it. Just a few years ago, it was considered a personality flaw to be preoccupied with likes and follower counts. Now it seems it's a primary and openly admitted pre-occupation of many users if not a whole generation, from average Joe's to celebrities. Were there a set of key events that led to this normalization of what used to be a frowned upon behavior? Or was it merely a grinding away of cultural norms through persistent gamification mechanics?

retox 8y ago
I think someone of the change has come from the realization that you can turn likes/eyeballs into IRL money. Whether its from things like youtube monetization or being paid to promote products and lifestyles, as I've heard people do on instagram.
- jd_routledge 8y ago
  I agree on this. When you have big businesses commercially incentivised to promote addictive behaviour it's going to be hard to change the collective behaviour and its potentially harmful impact
keithnz 8y ago
it's ok, you have a 5k rank on HN! but... I think it just got normalized. It was like online dating, a lot of people wouldn't admit / kept it quite guarded that they met their partner online. Now it's almost odd if you didn't.
- _jal 8y ago
  Two good friends of mine connected on a dating side and eventually got married. The funny part is that they knew each other already; the three of us were friends in college and all lived in the same dorm.
ModernMech 8y ago
The key development was growing up with an always connected smartphone. There was a period between the early 90s and the mid 00s where kids grew up with a concept of the internet, but not everyone had it, it was hard to get access to so you treated your time in it preciously, and because of this you had several other methods of communicating with friends (like actually calling their landline and actually asking their parents if they are free to talk on the phone.) Kids who grew up in the 80s were too early to have had the internet at all. But kids who grew up in the 00s, notably after the iPhone came out in 06, grew up very differently. The internet wasn't a precious resource, but an always available utility ready to be consumed at will. This generation is growing up in a never ending onslaught of advertisements and peer pressure the likes of which we didn't experience. They are all guinea pigs for the Facebooks of the world, subjects of the A/B psychographic targeting grind. Their dopamine receptors have been primed since birth to go crazy at the sight of a like. Anyway, that's my take on it as someone who grew up in this tiny golden era of the internet.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Wouldn't all the overstimulation harden them to dopamine attacks? Normally if you're exposed to something you get used to it, especially if it's a pleasure.
  - siavosh 8y ago
    I think that’s only true if it’s a predictable reward function; if you add a random variable, in the words of Mr. Miyagi, “no can defense.”
    - oblio 8y ago
      https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2018/01/12/birdcage-liners/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2018/01/12/birdcage-liners/ > How do we prevent extinction? By only giving treats some of the time. So the dog learns something more subtle. When my master says come and I obey, I might get a treat. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. That way, if I obey and don’t get the treat, I shouldn’t panic. I should still always come when he says come because that’s still the best way to get the most treats. Intermittent reinforcement works better. > This sounds like what Facebook was doing to me.
jetsnoc 8y ago
I'm at the tail end too, and don't "get it" but I can see it for what it is, I think. I think for a number of people, money is more of an achievement than something you convert in to goods and services. It's a number on a leaderboard to track and I think likes/favorites/hearts on Social Media may be real similar and far easier to achieve since there is little to no risk and very little work required. They collect them for recognition, self-esteem and to rank higher on a leaderboard, not much more to it. They are earning that next level and winning a game.
peacetreefrog 8y ago
Seems to me more common on Twitter, moreso as a way of shortcuts to figuring out who (most followers) and what (most retweets/favorites) to pay attention to. It sort of makes sense there, but it still would seem lame to me for the average person to publicly admit to caring about FB, Instagram, and Hacker News likes and engagement (obviously everyone does at least a little privately). I'm not hip though. Is this still the case or not?
itronitron 8y ago
those that now what a dial-up modem sounds like and those that don't, and to think there was also a time when it was a big deal to be able to also talk on the phone while surfing the information superhighway
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deltron3030 8y ago
>Were there a set of key events that led to this normalization of what used to be a frowned upon behavior? Influencer marketing getting popular most likely.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
hrktb 8y ago
It might depend on when you think it started. Does usenet fit the bill ? (no ‘likes’ per se, but the number of answers in a thread would be a good proxy) Or blog rings where people would link to your pages and you’d monitor link numbers and page views ? or just the number of comments on your “guestbook” section of your blog ? I am not sure if those were more or less legitimate to accumulate than likes. My parents sure didn’t understand what we could be doing on the internet (I passed it as a research tool while still studying) but friends would proudly show their blog numbers, there was a hierarchy of well respected posters on boards, and there was a clear social effect IRL during off meetings. In a way I think the numbers game started the minute something could be counted regarding stuff you did online.
rkuykendall-com 8y ago
Pretending to be what you view as normal/perfect is nothing new. Every family in the 50s was not Leave It To Beaver. If anything, you might be seeing seeing the tail-end of that kind of pretending. But probably not. The internet is just the newest place to keep up appearances to those around you.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

retox 8y ago

I think someone of the change has come from the realization that you can turn likes/eyeballs into IRL money. Whether its from things like youtube monetization or being paid to promote products and lifestyles, as I've heard people do on instagram.

jd_routledge 8y ago
I agree on this. When you have big businesses commercially incentivised to promote addictive behaviour it's going to be hard to change the collective behaviour and its potentially harmful impact

keithnz 8y ago

it's ok, you have a 5k rank on HN! but... I think it just got normalized. It was like online dating, a lot of people wouldn't admit / kept it quite guarded that they met their partner online. Now it's almost odd if you didn't.

_jal 8y ago
Two good friends of mine connected on a dating side and eventually got married. The funny part is that they knew each other already; the three of us were friends in college and all lived in the same dorm.

ModernMech 8y ago

The key development was growing up with an always connected smartphone. There was a period between the early 90s and the mid 00s where kids grew up with a concept of the internet, but not everyone had it, it was hard to get access to so you treated your time in it preciously, and because of this you had several other methods of communicating with friends (like actually calling their landline and actually asking their parents if they are free to talk on the phone.) Kids who grew up in the 80s were too early to have had the internet at all. But kids who grew up in the 00s, notably after the iPhone came out in 06, grew up very differently. The internet wasn't a precious resource, but an always available utility ready to be consumed at will. This generation is growing up in a never ending onslaught of advertisements and peer pressure the likes of which we didn't experience. They are all guinea pigs for the Facebooks of the world, subjects of the A/B psychographic targeting grind. Their dopamine receptors have been primed since birth to go crazy at the sight of a like. Anyway, that's my take on it as someone who grew up in this tiny golden era of the internet.

whatshisface 8y ago
Wouldn't all the overstimulation harden them to dopamine attacks? Normally if you're exposed to something you get used to it, especially if it's a pleasure.
- siavosh 8y ago
  I think that’s only true if it’s a predictable reward function; if you add a random variable, in the words of Mr. Miyagi, “no can defense.”
  - oblio 8y ago
    https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2018/01/12/birdcage-liners/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2018/01/12/birdcage-liners/ > How do we prevent extinction? By only giving treats some of the time. So the dog learns something more subtle. When my master says come and I obey, I might get a treat. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. That way, if I obey and don’t get the treat, I shouldn’t panic. I should still always come when he says come because that’s still the best way to get the most treats. Intermittent reinforcement works better. > This sounds like what Facebook was doing to me.

jetsnoc 8y ago

I'm at the tail end too, and don't "get it" but I can see it for what it is, I think. I think for a number of people, money is more of an achievement than something you convert in to goods and services. It's a number on a leaderboard to track and I think likes/favorites/hearts on Social Media may be real similar and far easier to achieve since there is little to no risk and very little work required. They collect them for recognition, self-esteem and to rank higher on a leaderboard, not much more to it. They are earning that next level and winning a game.

peacetreefrog 8y ago

Seems to me more common on Twitter, moreso as a way of shortcuts to figuring out who (most followers) and what (most retweets/favorites) to pay attention to. It sort of makes sense there, but it still would seem lame to me for the average person to publicly admit to caring about FB, Instagram, and Hacker News likes and engagement (obviously everyone does at least a little privately). I'm not hip though. Is this still the case or not?

itronitron 8y ago

those that now what a dial-up modem sounds like and those that don't, and to think there was also a time when it was a big deal to be able to also talk on the phone while surfing the information superhighway

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deltron3030 8y ago

>Were there a set of key events that led to this normalization of what used to be a frowned upon behavior? Influencer marketing getting popular most likely.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

hrktb 8y ago

It might depend on when you think it started. Does usenet fit the bill ? (no ‘likes’ per se, but the number of answers in a thread would be a good proxy) Or blog rings where people would link to your pages and you’d monitor link numbers and page views ? or just the number of comments on your “guestbook” section of your blog ? I am not sure if those were more or less legitimate to accumulate than likes. My parents sure didn’t understand what we could be doing on the internet (I passed it as a research tool while still studying) but friends would proudly show their blog numbers, there was a hierarchy of well respected posters on boards, and there was a clear social effect IRL during off meetings. In a way I think the numbers game started the minute something could be counted regarding stuff you did online.

rkuykendall-com 8y ago

Pretending to be what you view as normal/perfect is nothing new. Every family in the 50s was not Leave It To Beaver. If anything, you might be seeing seeing the tail-end of that kind of pretending. But probably not. The internet is just the newest place to keep up appearances to those around you.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]