6 ms·

Former CEO of Paypal, Intuit: “Bitcoin is the greatest scam in history”

53 points by DEFCON28 8y ago

hapnin 8y ago
Reminds me of this piece re: other fields: President of American Association of Buggy-Whip Manufacturers takes a strong stand against internal combustion engine, argues that the so-called “automobile” has “little grounding in theory” and that “results can vary widely based on the particular fuel that is used” [0] [0] http://andrewgelman.com/2014/08/06/president-american-association-buggy-whip-manufacturers-takes-strong-stand-internal-combustion-engine-argues-called-automobile-little-grounding-theory/ http://andrewgelman.com/2014/08/06/president-american-associ...
angersock 8y ago
I mean, it is though. Consider the quality of life that could've been achieved with the same energy cost, material cost, and eventual environmental cost--all so that nerds can collect Merkle pogs.
- Ryudas 8y ago
  Consider the quality of life that would be gained by having the same energy all these "gamer" nerds use, with their consoles and graphics power on these useless. silly games. Or consuming netflix. Or watching movies. Or doing anything that is not directly used on the survival of the human race. This is a pedantic argument.
  - angersock 8y ago
    There's a big difference between entertainment and bitcoins--your false equivalence is wrong.
    - hndamien 8y ago
      It is. One is the most important economic innovation of our lifetime.
- whataretensors 8y ago
  Think of the quality of life that could be achieved if we take all the money from the drug cartels and use it to feed and shelter the homeless of the world. It's a nice sentiment about an idealistic world but ultimately meaningless beyond producing feelings of guilt for the target.
  - angersock 8y ago
    If your counterargument needs you to bring up drug cartels (and even there, for better or worse, they have physical products that actually do something for the end user) maybe your argument is not airtight. > It's a nice sentiment about an idealistic world but ultimately meaningless beyond producing feelings of guilt for the target. Maybe the target should feel guilty for participating and spreading this scam? Like, if the Bitcoin fans came out and said "Look, okay, we're basically just riding this super volatile security to take advantage of normies and rubes", that'd be fine. America has a long and storied tradition of honoring conmen. The smug bullshit though? The idea that because they got lucky with some crackpot stupid 'net token scheme (of which there have been dozens over the years) and thus are clearly so superior to the plebes actually building things and powering the economy they take for granted? It's a racket. It's always been a racket. Don't try to act like it isn't.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
viraptor 8y ago
I'm not sure why they needed to add incorrect/unfounded ideas to the otherwise ok article. > Because transactions can be anonymous — law enforcement cannot easily trace who buys and sells — its use is dominated by illegal endeavors. That's a no, no, and [citation needed]. Especially since later they write: > The IRS recently ordered one major exchange to produce records of every significant transaction.
- PhilWright 8y ago
  I assume that most mom and pop investors will use the same exchange to buy their bitcoin and then later sell them. In that case the IRS can see both transactions in their account and know the capital profit/loss they have not declared. If you buy at one exchange and then transfer the coins to another to sell it would be harder for the IRS to match up and discover your profit/loss. Especially if you move the coins via several intermediaries and sell in a different country that is not under the IRS jurisdiction.
  - viraptor 8y ago
    You can still track the transactions though - or specifically IRS or LE can request history from the exchanges. Some exchange in the chain may not be under the IRS jurisdiction, but if you want to actually withdraw your money, you'll have to do it either by buying something, via local organisation in cash, or in another country. I.e. it's not that much harder to track than if you did it in cash (rather than btc), which has the same pros/cons if you're in the US. And I don't think exchanges will ever protect anyone if the LE asks, because of the know your customer rules (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer)
fragmede 8y ago
I'd believe Intuit's CEO as I trust him to know about scams - he's running one of the most successful ones there is! He successfully lobbied Congress and the IRS to mandate the use of tax preparation software, and hey, guess what his company makes?
- noitsnot 8y ago
  Lobbying Congress to influence their decisions isn't a scam.
  - calgoo 8y ago
    No, it's legalized bribing but that does not change what it causes. People are angry that the system is abused, and want a simple solution because we as tech workers understand that all the "issues" around taxes could simplified, but won't because of greed.
- cepth 8y ago
  I assume you’re referring to Intuit’s lobbying against proposals for automatic tax filing. Keep in mind that this would generally only apply to people who are taking the standard deductions. The IRS may be able to pre-fill your returns with W-2 or investment related 1099 information. But if you’re a freelancer, or own rental properties, or donated to charity, or have a child in college etc., you’re going to want to itemize your deductions for maximum benefit. There is no conceivable way for the IRS to pre-populate the relevant information for all of these cases. For example, many major charities still give donors hand signed receipts for donations of physical items. Rental properties can have multiple owners, and the IRS may not be able to discern if they are spouses etc. If you actually have a simple tax situation, there are plenty of free filing options: https://freefilealliance.org/ https://freefilealliance.org/. TurboTax isn’t cheap, but if you have a complex tax situation, the fact that their software takes you through every possible deduction can lead to real savings. YMMV, but this has been the case for me.
  - p49k 8y ago
    > Keep in mind that this would generally only apply to people who are taking the standard deductions. The IRS may be able to pre-fill your returns with W-2 or investment related 1099 information. That’s all anyone is asking for. This is exactly how taxes work in most of the modern world: you’re sent a prefilled form which is already completely filled for the majority of people, and you only need to confirm if it’s correct or edit if not. > If you actually have a simple tax situation, there are plenty of free filing options: https://freefilealliance.org https://freefilealliance.org Which is headed by Intuit and designed in a way to purposely make the options as difficult to understand and use as possible so that people buy Intuit products. Google to read any number of articles which go into this in detail.
DrScump 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16914632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16914632 80+ points
OscarCunningham 8y ago
It might not be a good idea, but I don't think it's fair to call it a "scam". I don't think Satoshi created it with the anticipation that it would fail.
llcoolv 8y ago
https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-is-a-scam-claims-ousted-ceo-of-paypal https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-is-a-scam-claims-oust... Seems like Harris spent around 20 working days as "PayPal Founding CEO" before he got figured out. Quite ridiculous.
- aitrean 8y ago
  Not sure what "figured out" means. However, just to deflect another crypto-fueled ad hominem, I'd like to point out that Elon Musk was also a CEO of PayPal, and lasted only around a year in the position before he too was forced out.
conmarap 8y ago
I think he meant to say "banks" and not "Bitcoin."
admyral 8y ago
What's so righteous about the status quo that makes skeptics feel so compelled to defend it so vehemently by degrading Bitcoin? But it seems we should be far beyond Denial and Anger stage and well into Bargaining and Guilt at this point. Don't worry, he'll join the chorus of "blockchain is good, Bitcoin is bad" rhetoric soon enough.
- aitrean 8y ago
  What's so righteous about the status quo? I'll put it to you as succinctly as possible: I can hold money in a checking account and have the same amount of money next week, or next month Inflation is largely predictable, and pretty much non-existant compared to crypto volatility Fraud, phishing, and hacking will not cause me to lose my life savings. My mother is not technologically savvy at all. I would be terrified to let her keep any significant portion of her savings in a system where a hash with a typo will cost you you everything. For as much as cryptocurrency supporters will harp about the evils of Wall Street; the explicit scams, pump and dumps, and market manipulation by 0.001% of crypto holders make Goldman Sachs look like a company of boy scouts. 2008 Financial recession? Ha, wait until you see what happens when Chinese mining pools decide it's time to weed out the small fish (ie, every other month or so). Sure, lecture me all you want about how the Federal Reserve is evil - but at least they don't prey on investors with explicit pump and dumps, useless ICOs, or that shit circus Tether. Although there are certainly smart people working in the blockchain space - most cryptocurrency/blockchain supporters are needlessly confrontational, smug, have a limited understanding of economics or financial engineering, and use ad hominems when they're confronted by arguments they can't debate against. From an economics and engineering perspective, there are a lot of holes in blockchain and crypto as a technology. This is reflected in the fact that there are currently no useful innovations built on blockchain, other than money laundering, and cryptocurrency (which has no inherent value itself).
  - admyral 8y ago
    I find nothing righteous about a system designed for a select few to profit from maintaining the illusion our money is safe and secure in a vault somewhere. That illusion has already cost people their life savings without any attacks or user error required. But the difference is they are deemed "too big to fail", so when they screw up, they get bailed out while everyone else loses it all. More egregious is economists insistence that the continuous debasement of our currency combined with skyrocketing consumer debt and stagnant wages due to automation will not end badly. These are the same economists that couldn't possibly predict what would happen when bankers and creditors were allowed to produce billions in worthless financial derivatives and sell them as triple-A investments.

53 points by DEFCON28 8y ago

Reminds me of this piece re: other fields: President of American Association of Buggy-Whip Manufacturers takes a strong stand against internal combustion engine, argues that the so-called “automobile” has “little grounding in theory” and that “results can vary widely based on the particular fuel that is used” [0] [0] http://andrewgelman.com/2014/08/06/president-american-association-buggy-whip-manufacturers-takes-strong-stand-internal-combustion-engine-argues-called-automobile-little-grounding-theory/ http://andrewgelman.com/2014/08/06/president-american-associ...

angersock 8y ago

I mean, it is though. Consider the quality of life that could've been achieved with the same energy cost, material cost, and eventual environmental cost--all so that nerds can collect Merkle pogs.

Ryudas 8y ago
Consider the quality of life that would be gained by having the same energy all these "gamer" nerds use, with their consoles and graphics power on these useless. silly games. Or consuming netflix. Or watching movies. Or doing anything that is not directly used on the survival of the human race. This is a pedantic argument.
- angersock 8y ago
  There's a big difference between entertainment and bitcoins--your false equivalence is wrong.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    It is. One is the most important economic innovation of our lifetime.
whataretensors 8y ago
Think of the quality of life that could be achieved if we take all the money from the drug cartels and use it to feed and shelter the homeless of the world. It's a nice sentiment about an idealistic world but ultimately meaningless beyond producing feelings of guilt for the target.
- angersock 8y ago
  If your counterargument needs you to bring up drug cartels (and even there, for better or worse, they have physical products that actually do something for the end user) maybe your argument is not airtight. > It's a nice sentiment about an idealistic world but ultimately meaningless beyond producing feelings of guilt for the target. Maybe the target should feel guilty for participating and spreading this scam? Like, if the Bitcoin fans came out and said "Look, okay, we're basically just riding this super volatile security to take advantage of normies and rubes", that'd be fine. America has a long and storied tradition of honoring conmen. The smug bullshit though? The idea that because they got lucky with some crackpot stupid 'net token scheme (of which there have been dozens over the years) and thus are clearly so superior to the plebes actually building things and powering the economy they take for granted? It's a racket. It's always been a racket. Don't try to act like it isn't.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

viraptor 8y ago

I'm not sure why they needed to add incorrect/unfounded ideas to the otherwise ok article. > Because transactions can be anonymous — law enforcement cannot easily trace who buys and sells — its use is dominated by illegal endeavors. That's a no, no, and [citation needed]. Especially since later they write: > The IRS recently ordered one major exchange to produce records of every significant transaction.

PhilWright 8y ago
I assume that most mom and pop investors will use the same exchange to buy their bitcoin and then later sell them. In that case the IRS can see both transactions in their account and know the capital profit/loss they have not declared. If you buy at one exchange and then transfer the coins to another to sell it would be harder for the IRS to match up and discover your profit/loss. Especially if you move the coins via several intermediaries and sell in a different country that is not under the IRS jurisdiction.
- viraptor 8y ago
  You can still track the transactions though - or specifically IRS or LE can request history from the exchanges. Some exchange in the chain may not be under the IRS jurisdiction, but if you want to actually withdraw your money, you'll have to do it either by buying something, via local organisation in cash, or in another country. I.e. it's not that much harder to track than if you did it in cash (rather than btc), which has the same pros/cons if you're in the US. And I don't think exchanges will ever protect anyone if the LE asks, because of the know your customer rules (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer)

fragmede 8y ago

I'd believe Intuit's CEO as I trust him to know about scams - he's running one of the most successful ones there is! He successfully lobbied Congress and the IRS to mandate the use of tax preparation software, and hey, guess what his company makes?

noitsnot 8y ago
Lobbying Congress to influence their decisions isn't a scam.
- calgoo 8y ago
  No, it's legalized bribing but that does not change what it causes. People are angry that the system is abused, and want a simple solution because we as tech workers understand that all the "issues" around taxes could simplified, but won't because of greed.
cepth 8y ago
I assume you’re referring to Intuit’s lobbying against proposals for automatic tax filing. Keep in mind that this would generally only apply to people who are taking the standard deductions. The IRS may be able to pre-fill your returns with W-2 or investment related 1099 information. But if you’re a freelancer, or own rental properties, or donated to charity, or have a child in college etc., you’re going to want to itemize your deductions for maximum benefit. There is no conceivable way for the IRS to pre-populate the relevant information for all of these cases. For example, many major charities still give donors hand signed receipts for donations of physical items. Rental properties can have multiple owners, and the IRS may not be able to discern if they are spouses etc. If you actually have a simple tax situation, there are plenty of free filing options: https://freefilealliance.org/ https://freefilealliance.org/. TurboTax isn’t cheap, but if you have a complex tax situation, the fact that their software takes you through every possible deduction can lead to real savings. YMMV, but this has been the case for me.
- p49k 8y ago
  > Keep in mind that this would generally only apply to people who are taking the standard deductions. The IRS may be able to pre-fill your returns with W-2 or investment related 1099 information. That’s all anyone is asking for. This is exactly how taxes work in most of the modern world: you’re sent a prefilled form which is already completely filled for the majority of people, and you only need to confirm if it’s correct or edit if not. > If you actually have a simple tax situation, there are plenty of free filing options: https://freefilealliance.org https://freefilealliance.org Which is headed by Intuit and designed in a way to purposely make the options as difficult to understand and use as possible so that people buy Intuit products. Google to read any number of articles which go into this in detail.

DrScump 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16914632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16914632 80+ points

OscarCunningham 8y ago

It might not be a good idea, but I don't think it's fair to call it a "scam". I don't think Satoshi created it with the anticipation that it would fail.

llcoolv 8y ago

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-is-a-scam-claims-ousted-ceo-of-paypal https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-is-a-scam-claims-oust... Seems like Harris spent around 20 working days as "PayPal Founding CEO" before he got figured out. Quite ridiculous.

aitrean 8y ago
Not sure what "figured out" means. However, just to deflect another crypto-fueled ad hominem, I'd like to point out that Elon Musk was also a CEO of PayPal, and lasted only around a year in the position before he too was forced out.

conmarap 8y ago

I think he meant to say "banks" and not "Bitcoin."

admyral 8y ago

What's so righteous about the status quo that makes skeptics feel so compelled to defend it so vehemently by degrading Bitcoin? But it seems we should be far beyond Denial and Anger stage and well into Bargaining and Guilt at this point. Don't worry, he'll join the chorus of "blockchain is good, Bitcoin is bad" rhetoric soon enough.

aitrean 8y ago
What's so righteous about the status quo? I'll put it to you as succinctly as possible: I can hold money in a checking account and have the same amount of money next week, or next month Inflation is largely predictable, and pretty much non-existant compared to crypto volatility Fraud, phishing, and hacking will not cause me to lose my life savings. My mother is not technologically savvy at all. I would be terrified to let her keep any significant portion of her savings in a system where a hash with a typo will cost you you everything. For as much as cryptocurrency supporters will harp about the evils of Wall Street; the explicit scams, pump and dumps, and market manipulation by 0.001% of crypto holders make Goldman Sachs look like a company of boy scouts. 2008 Financial recession? Ha, wait until you see what happens when Chinese mining pools decide it's time to weed out the small fish (ie, every other month or so). Sure, lecture me all you want about how the Federal Reserve is evil - but at least they don't prey on investors with explicit pump and dumps, useless ICOs, or that shit circus Tether. Although there are certainly smart people working in the blockchain space - most cryptocurrency/blockchain supporters are needlessly confrontational, smug, have a limited understanding of economics or financial engineering, and use ad hominems when they're confronted by arguments they can't debate against. From an economics and engineering perspective, there are a lot of holes in blockchain and crypto as a technology. This is reflected in the fact that there are currently no useful innovations built on blockchain, other than money laundering, and cryptocurrency (which has no inherent value itself).
- admyral 8y ago
  I find nothing righteous about a system designed for a select few to profit from maintaining the illusion our money is safe and secure in a vault somewhere. That illusion has already cost people their life savings without any attacks or user error required. But the difference is they are deemed "too big to fail", so when they screw up, they get bailed out while everyone else loses it all. More egregious is economists insistence that the continuous debasement of our currency combined with skyrocketing consumer debt and stagnant wages due to automation will not end badly. These are the same economists that couldn't possibly predict what would happen when bankers and creditors were allowed to produce billions in worthless financial derivatives and sell them as triple-A investments.