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The real problem with the replacement refrigerants is their reduced efficiency, leading to more energy use. Though we should just use propane since it doesn't h

by coryrc 9y ago

The real problem with the replacement refrigerants is their reduced efficiency, leading to more energy use. Though we should just use propane since it doesn't harm ozone, has lower GWP, costs less, and has much higher efficiency.

userbinator 9y ago
Though we should just use propane since it doesn't harm ozone, has lower GWP, costs less, and has much higher efficiency. ...and is also explosively flammable. Remember that CFCs replaced early refrigerants which were flammable and/or toxic. This memorable incident may be attributed to using a flammable refrigerant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire Personally, I'm against an absolutist ban on CFCs, since it was mainly their mass release into the atmosphere that caused problems, and they had great advantages in closed-system uses. This may surprise a lot of HN readers, but I have the same belief about PCBs[1] and chrysotile (white asbestos)[2] --- "the dose makes the poison". Literally everything is harmful to something in some way, so the right thing to do is to manage use such that we can maximise the benefit:risk ratio, instead of the frenzied "ban everything" attitude that seems far too pervasive today. [1] https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-environment-health-news-science-science-everywhere-toxicity/pcbs-are-not-toxic-time-bombs https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-envi... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581056/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581056/
- sitkack 9y ago
  We don't live in world where industry can control itself properly for this be put into practice.
petre 9y ago
That was fixed with driver/drive combinations that replaced electric motors coupled with on/off thermostat switches. Anyway, I still wonder why ammonia fell into disuse as a refrigerent.
- kpil 9y ago
  It's still in use in silent (Einstein) refrigerator units. One reason might be that we had to evacuate our office when our small refrigerator in the pentry popped and vented all ammonia. It took a while to get sorted, and it can't have been much in that small unit.
- userbinator 9y ago
  Ammonia is still in use in large-scale refrigeration, indoor ice rinks and food storage being the major applications. The main reason it's not used in domestic refrigeration is the toxicity, although it's still common in absorption refrigerators.

by coryrc 9y ago

userbinator 9y ago

Though we should just use propane since it doesn't harm ozone, has lower GWP, costs less, and has much higher efficiency. ...and is also explosively flammable. Remember that CFCs replaced early refrigerants which were flammable and/or toxic. This memorable incident may be attributed to using a flammable refrigerant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire Personally, I'm against an absolutist ban on CFCs, since it was mainly their mass release into the atmosphere that caused problems, and they had great advantages in closed-system uses. This may surprise a lot of HN readers, but I have the same belief about PCBs[1] and chrysotile (white asbestos)[2] --- "the dose makes the poison". Literally everything is harmful to something in some way, so the right thing to do is to manage use such that we can maximise the benefit:risk ratio, instead of the frenzied "ban everything" attitude that seems far too pervasive today. [1] https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-environment-health-news-science-science-everywhere-toxicity/pcbs-are-not-toxic-time-bombs https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-envi... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581056/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581056/

sitkack 9y ago
We don't live in world where industry can control itself properly for this be put into practice.

petre 9y ago

That was fixed with driver/drive combinations that replaced electric motors coupled with on/off thermostat switches. Anyway, I still wonder why ammonia fell into disuse as a refrigerent.

kpil 9y ago
It's still in use in silent (Einstein) refrigerator units. One reason might be that we had to evacuate our office when our small refrigerator in the pentry popped and vented all ammonia. It took a while to get sorted, and it can't have been much in that small unit.
userbinator 9y ago
Ammonia is still in use in large-scale refrigeration, indoor ice rinks and food storage being the major applications. The main reason it's not used in domestic refrigeration is the toxicity, although it's still common in absorption refrigerators.