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An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami
- StringyBob 8y agoI assume lots of chefs (in high end restaurants) use MSG, but rightly think it could scare off some of their clientele.
- clarkenheim 8y agoThe words "umami flavours" is a lot more palatable than MSG.
- titanomachy 8y agoBut it could refer to ingredients other than pure MSG.
- dibujante 8y agoIngredients which in turn would contain glutamates, and likely monosodium glutamate.
- derefr 8y agoThis can come from the food itself, and many recipes—in fact, almost all recipes that aren’t either fast food or molecular gastronomy—were crafted to derive umami flavours from their ingredients, rather than being “boosted” after the fact. Which is not to say the result isn’t the same as if they just added the MSG. It’s just a different approach to adding it.
- gilrain 8y agoChef's are superstitious and misinformed about food science at only slightly lower rates than average, in my experience. Most of fine cooking is based on tradition and received wisdom rather than evidence.
- thedz 8y agoI've talked to many otherwise perfectly rational folks who get worked up about avoiding MSG when it comes to Asian food — but still go out and buy liquid aminos or eat foods that are caked in it.
- bvinc 8y agoI just checked the ingredients on my liquid aminos and it doesn't say msg. Their website says they don't add it, but there may be "very small amounts" that naturally occur from the soybeans. Please explain. P.S. I have no reaction to MSG I just don't understand why you would think someone is being irrational.
- aphextron 8y ago>P.S. I have no reaction to MSG I just don't understand why you would think someone is being irrational. Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional.
- bvinc 8y ago> Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional. It has not been proven, and will not be proven, that every single person in the world has no reaction to MSG. All I'm advocating is a little bit of doubt. The human body is complex and not every person is the same and not every biological process is completely understood. We can make statements as a whole, like that most people that think they're sensitive to MSG aren't. But we shouldn't excitedly immediately dismiss a person claiming that something is happening to them.
- tptacek 8y agoYou might just as well raise concerns about adverse effects from dill, or alliums, or fava beans. In fact, all three of those are more likely to be associated with ill effects, because they're more allergenic. The reason MSG gets such harsh pushback is that the idea of "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" or "MSG sensitivity" has been rebutted pretty comprehensively both from an empirical perspective --- decades of studies have never established a link, which according to the narrative of MSG sensitivity should be very easy to do! --- and from a theoretical perspective. In fact, the theoretical basis for the safety of MSG is pretty plain just from the molecule, which makes you wonder how people could be spinning stories about the dangers of chemical MSG at all.
- alexnewman 8y agoI love how people claim that MSG headaches are racism and not that MSG vastly differs from cheap salt to liquid aminos.
- bpicolo 8y agoHere's a study for contextualizing: https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(00)44233-8/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(00)44233-8/ful... I've yet to see one that showed actual adverse effects of eating MSG via food, regardless of claimed sensitivities. I think this is the heart of the "racist" claim - there's no study that supports the existence of that sort of MSG sensitivity out there yet (that I've heard about)
- kazinator 8y agoThe study isn't denying that there are effects. > neither persistent nor serious effects from MSG ingestion Effects don't have to be serious or persistent for them to be a nuisance enough to avoid! I don't need six hours of a mild headache/nausea, thanks.
- bpicolo 8y agoThis context was important on the study: > large doses of MSG given without food
- kazinator 8y agoThat could describe the situation when you're drinking MSG-laced soup. The liquid will race ahead of the solids ingredients like noodles and get absorbed first. If MSG is sprinked onto something dry, like some types of snack food, which is then washed down with a drink, it could also be absorbed fast.
- tptacek 8y agoThis is first-principles message board hypothesizing. In fact, there's enormous incentive in academic science to actually demonstrate a reliable adverse MSG effect, and there has been for decades. Why has no reputable study done so? Is it really your argument that no food scientist has ever thought of the study design questions you're alluding to here?
- kazinator 8y ago> They are willing to bring MSG into their homes as a component in other foods—more than happy to accept it as a flavoring powerhouse in Doritos, instant ramen, canned soup, and bouillon cubes, or at least happy to accept its euphemisms, like “hydrolized soy protein” and “autolyzed yeast.” Those are strawman avoiders of MSG, not everyone. I avoid stuff which lists MSG under these names. As well as disodium inosinate or disodium guanylate. I can tolerate some MSG, but if there is too much, I get headache/nausea. That is, it's not like I can't have a few chips at a party.
- dekhn 8y agoDoesn't this mean that eating any meat, or your own body chemistry, would also cause headaches?
- pc2g4d 8y agoYou would think so, but somehow the artificial stuff is different or in greater concentration. Here's how I discovered my MSG intolerance: I made a bunch of onion soup (from onion soup mix), and ate a ton of it. I then spent the next 24 hours feeling terrible, downing pepto, etc. A few weeks later I made a recipe that included onion soup mix as an ingredient. Again I felt terrible. I though, Aha, I must have an onion allergy, this onion soup mix keeps making me sick. So I started checking if onions themselves made me sick. But onions were no problem. Then I looked at the other ingredients on the onion soup mix. Monosodium glutamate stood out. I remembered hearing that could cause problems. So I started learning more about it, and as I did much of my digestive life came into focus. I remembered moments of intestinal agony ever since I was a teenager that I couldn't explain. I paid attention to what bothered my stomach, and always there was some form of MSG---autolyzed yeast, etc. Since making an effort to avoid MSG I almost never encounter those symptoms. And when I do it's usually attributable to food prepared by others whose ingredients I can't strictly account for. People claim MSG intolerance isn't a real thing, but my experience has shown me otherwise.
- gilrain 8y agoYes, and we've repeatedly researched MSG on the basis of experiences like yours. It turns out there is no evidence that people who self-report as sensitive actually are. Yes, even if they're really, really sure. Maybe you are some sort of undiscovered outlier? That may be compelling to you, but it seems unlikely to me... the research indicates you're far more likely to be among those who have misidentified a cause for their symptoms, one conveniently pointed out to them by urban legend. It's completely unsurprising, and I've done the same many times before.
- throwaway84742 8y agoIf you can tolerate chicken stock, you can tolerate MSG. It’s as simple as that.
- bvinc 8y agoI just checked the ingredients on my organic Costco chicken stock. The ingredients do not contain MSG. I found a website that asked Costco about their "natural flavors" and got a response that it does not contain soy, or dairy, and no MSG is added. Is it really that simple? Please explain.
- ajross 8y agoThis is for the same reason you don't find "chloride ions" on the label of your soup can.
- philipkglass 8y agoThe stock contains sodium and it contains glutamate from the protein in the chicken. It therefore contains MSG in the same way that salt water contains salt.
- throwaway84742 8y agoChicken stock contains natural glutamate because chicken itself contains it. It’s what gives chicken stock its savory flavor. Moreover, your body makes its own glutamate, too. So yes, it’s that simple. That’s why they say “no MSG is _added_”. This is similar to how a lot of meat products say “no nitrites are added”, yet use celery juice which is naturally rich in nitrites to prevent meat from turning brown.
- mchristen 8y agoGlutamates are found naturally in everything you eat. MSG is just a water soluble form of glutamates.
- psychometry 8y agoDoes anyone know if the brand mentioned (Ajinomoto) is any better than Accent? I mean, MSG is MSG, right?
- tptacek 8y agoPer the article, Accent has additional flavorings.
- philipkglass 8y agoYes, MSG is MSG. Accent apparently has at least two products. Pure MSG: https://www.amazon.com/Accent-Flavor-Enhancer-lb-canister/dp/B0017TN3UC https://www.amazon.com/Accent-Flavor-Enhancer-lb-canister/dp... And a seasoning mixture that contains MSG, salt, and a mixture of spices: https://www.amazon.com/Sa-son-Accent-Seasoning-Original-Packets/dp/B0017OGVP6 https://www.amazon.com/Sa-son-Accent-Seasoning-Original-Pack... I have only ever seen the first kind of Accent before (crystals of pure MSG) so I too was initially confused about what the author meant when writing I picked up a dusty bottle of Ac’cent-brand MSG at my corner bodega. I brought it home, made dinner, and stepped into the light. After a few months of passionate use, I levelled up from Ac’cent, which includes other flavorings besides MSG, to the more pure and exquisite Ajinomoto...
- akaryocyte 8y agoThe article rather understates the use of glutamate in the body. > it is an essential building block of protein found in muscle tissue, the brain, and other organs. It's not only found in every organ, it's present in 99.6% of all human proteins, out of 20328 only 72 do not use glutamate, and of those 29 are keratin proteins.
- Nomentatus 8y agoPlus a neurotransmitter and a fuel as I remember. Modern domesticated plants have far larger amounts than other plants, however.
- ajross 8y agoInterestingly, though (just to digress -- your point is quite valid) it's not an essential amino acid for humans. Obviously it's required to make proteins, but if we don't get enough in our diet our bodies will synthesize it. It's just interesting that the molecule we evolved to recognize as a "protein!" marker in our food turns out not to be one of the protein submolecules we actually need to surive.
- jannotti 8y agoI suppose that makes sense if it's one of the easier ones to produce, so many animals can produce it. So it would be a better indicator of general protein than any of the rarer ones would be.
- tschwimmer 8y agoI agree with you, but it makes sense that we may have evolved to be able to synthesize it. Since it's such a crucial amino acid, it would be an advantageous adaptation to do so.
- tptacek 8y agoSupposedly, the glutamate you absorb in your intestine from food is an important precursor for glutathione, which protects your mucosa from dietary toxins. It's possible that you need to consume some level of it for healthy digestion.
- z2 8y agoMSG is fine, but I stubbornly cling to the notion that high quality ingredients should yield umami taste without adding MSG. To me it's similar to using ripe red bell peppers that are sweet, without needing to "fake" it with cane sugar. It's easy to turn dishes into caricatures by taking basic tastes to extremes. I'm no miso soup expert, but shouldn't it naturally have MSG from the seaweed, fermented miso paste, tuna, and tofu? Still, perhaps it's a bit silly because I don't blink when adding salt.
- tptacek 8y agoFrom a culinary perspective, the flip side of that --- referenced in the article --- is that sometimes you want the umami taste sensation without clouding the flavor of the product you're "seasoning". You can bump umami with soy sauce, parm, or tomato paste, but not without adding soy, parm, or tomato flavor. MSG lets you turn that knob while mostly keeping the pure flavor of the rest of the dish intact.
- ajross 8y agoTrue enough. But at the same time having complicated controls can lead to more experimentation. Literally this very subject (wanting to experiment with alternative glutamate sources) led me to a bunch of stuff you can do with yeast extracts. Marmite/vegemite make great additions to sauces, acting a lot like boullion does.
- caxhauquen 8y agoI identify with both of these issues, and have mixed feelings about MSG. I'm a sort of accidental vegetarian, in that I never really decided to become one; the rest of my family is vegetarian and I stopped eating meat because it was inconvenient, and then gradually I lost interest in it. I realized at some point MSG is really useful for adding umami flavor to things without adding other flavors, like seaweed or tomato or mushroom. It is wonderful for certain things, and makes some vegetarian dishes basically indistinguishable from those with meat. I think it's a little odd that people will go out of their way to add unusual strong-flavored ingredients for the umami, when you could just add MSG. At the same time, MSG on its own to me has a really cheap umami quality. It reminds me of really cheap frozen dinners and bad food from elementary school. For awhile I couldn't get over that, and then eventually realized that when it's used in complement with the right things in the right amounts, it works great--you just need to figure out the right settings. So sometimes those natural sources of umami just seem contorted and more trouble than they're worth. Other times, they seem to supply umami in a way that doesn't seem cheap or one-dimensional. I suspect that there's some other component of many "umami" flavors we haven't discovered yet, or other tastes that technically aren't umami but would be identified as such currently. It's difficult for me to believe that MSG is really capturing most of what I like about savory dishes; I feel like something else is missing. I'm waiting for other amino acid salt receptors to be identified; I wouldn't be surprised if they're somehow linked in their activity to glutamate receptors or something of that sort.
- skadamou 8y agoTIL glutamate is one of four amino acids that also functions as a neurotransmitter. Obviously, this does not refute any of the science disproving "MSG sensitivity" but I still find it interesting. Further, I wonder if there are people out there that claim sensitivity to aspartate or serine given that they too are both neurotransmitters and amino acids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter
- tptacek 8y agoFrom what I've read, no level of glutamate intake in humans allows it to cross the blood-brain barrier, or, for that matter, even substantially increase the serum glutamate level.
- dofly 8y agoHere's a thought. People who have persistent "diet related" health problems who also tried every single known dietary avoidance strategy (often with little success) could also get tested for H.pylori.
- philipkglass 8y agoThe article mentioned that glutamate is currently produced by fermentation with molasses as the main feedstock. I found a fascinating open access article about the history of glutamate production here: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/90/3/728S/4597145 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/90/3/728S/4597145 The author is an employee of Ajinomoto Co, Inc., the same company that the author of the New Yorker article visited. Abstract: In 1907 Kikunae Ikeda, a professor at the Tokyo Imperial University, began his research to identify the umami component in kelp. Within a year, he had succeeded in isolating, purifying, and identifying the principal component of umami and quickly obtained a production patent. In 1909 Saburosuke Suzuki, an entrepreneur, and Ikeda began the industrial production of monosodium L-glutamate (MSG). The first industrial production process was an extraction method in which vegetable proteins were treated with hydrochloric acid to disrupt peptide bonds. L-Glutamic acid hydrochloride was then isolated from this material and purified as MSG. Initial production of MSG was limited because of the technical drawbacks of this method. Better methods did not emerge until the 1950s. One of these was direct chemical synthesis, which was used from 1962 to 1973. In this procedure, acrylonitrile was the starting material, and optical resolution of DL-glutamic acid was achieved by preferential crystallization. In 1956 a direct fermentation method to produce glutamate was introduced. The advantages of the fermentation method (eg, reduction of production costs and environmental load) were large enough to cause all glutamate manufacturers to shift to fermentation. Today, total world production of MSG by fermentation is estimated to be 2 million tons/y (2 billion kg/y).
- kazinator 8y agoMelissa O'Brien at UBC has directly observed the effects of MSG on the blood flow in the dura in rat brains: https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/items/1.0224000 https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/... [2016] She basically takes it for granted that MSG causes headaches and is looking at the mechanisms. A recent study found that a single oral dose of 150mg/kg taken consecutively for five days resulted in headache and muscle tenderness when given to healthy young men (Shimada et al. 2013). Older work concluded that MSG consumption did not induce symptoms of pain or sensitivity but many of these studies have been scrutinized for their poor methodology (Tarasoff and Kelly 1993). Without definitive proof that MSG is harmful, it has been cleared in the United States and Canada as safe for human consumption and can be added to foods without regulation from Health Canada. Lots more in this paper; very good work.