4 ms·

Do you feel like WhatsApp is not polished?

lucb1e 8y ago
If polish is broadly defined as "something that was hitherto still missing in (claimed-to-be) end to end encrypted chat applications", then open source and a decent profit model are definitely features lacking from WhatsApp. Telegram is open source, but one has to consciously turn on encryption and it doesn't work on the web or desktop clients (and the profit model is non-existent). Signal doesn't work without Google services and requires a phone number and turned-on phone iirc (and their profit model seems to be extorting companies like Wire and helping closed source software like Whatsapp advertise with Signal-level encryption). Wire is the best of all, but the Android app drains battery and everything is web (slow, bulky; Electron). None of the above work in a decentralized manner, either. I don't know much about Matrix or Riot.im (from what I remembered, it was a implemented IRC alternative), but if it delivers on all of the above (and the article sure sounds like it), then it's definitely polishing up some final features that were still missing!
- cdancette 8y ago
  Telegram is not really open source. The server is not, and the Android code is updated months after each update, all commits being squashed(see issue[1]). Also their new app (Telegram X) is not open source. [1] https://github.com/DrKLO/Telegram/pull/1431 https://github.com/DrKLO/Telegram/pull/1431
- zeratax 8y ago
  you can use signal without any google services though, for more than a year now even. related commit: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/commit/1669731329bcc32c84e33035a67a2fc22444c24b https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/commit/166973132... pretty difficult to find the raw apk though: https://signal.org/android/apk/ https://signal.org/android/apk/ about matrix: you will probably end up having to use the electron riot app for a while, but the community is working hard on native clients, but afaik no client has e2ee in any usable state implemented yet (but a lot of progress is being made). I think the matrix.org team acts as a non-profit organisation, but most of the core team is also hired by New Vector where, I think the planned profit model is to run matrix instances as a service. there's some stuff about the funding in the faq: https://matrix.org/docs/guides/faq.html#what-kind-of-company-is-matrixorg https://matrix.org/docs/guides/faq.html#what-kind-of-company...
  - lucb1e 8y ago
    > you can use signal without any google services though, for more than a year now even. I tried it less than a year ago, because I had heard that too, but it still didn't work. I should try again on my new phone I guess.
- snthd 8y ago
  >Signal doesn't work without Google services Not true, it has a websockets alternative to gcm. >and requires a phone number The phone number can be anything you control. >and turned-on phone iirc Yes >(and their profit model seems to be extorting companies like Wire and helping closed source software like Whatsapp advertise with Signal-level encryption). It (now) has its own nonprofit backing it (and a generous benefactor). It's not trying to be profitable. The "extortion" thing seems to have been about wire using signal code in breach of copyright (ie not complying with the open source license). Signal has stated that the goal of working with WhatsApp (and others) is to make good crypto be used as widely as possible. Matrix crypto is also based on what's used in signal. >Wire is the best of all, but the Android app drains battery and everything is web Signal is very polished (at least on Android - I'm not familiar with the ios app).
  - HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
    You do not control a phone number. You can control an SSL cert using DNSSEC. So you cannot control your signal end-point. Besides, the signal server is in total control of your identity. Plus anyone might still use the phone number to send plain-text SMS'. TLDR: If you don't control the server, there is no security guarantee. So signal, whatsapp and telegram are out.
    - dbt00 8y ago
      DNSSEC is as secure as SMS.
      - HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
        But signal also uses name servers to connect clients. HIP, the host identity protocol, is the answer. Check out my nick. I'm not a big fan of the current naming system of the internet. Self-certifying names are needed. Edit: If DNSSEC is as secure as sms, then signal is as secure as sms.
        acct1771 8y ago
- prophesi 8y ago
  Very surprised to never see Keybase mentioned in these discussions. Everything, even the team chats, are end-to-end encrypted with a pretty slick interface. You can even send E2E-encrypted messages/files to people who haven't even joined yet! https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-chat https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-chat
  - SamPatt 8y ago
    Agreed. Their service is great.
  - pnutjam 8y ago
    I'm using this, they recently increased their free storage to 250gb.
xkarga00 8y ago
Do you really believe that Facebook (US company) has not complied with the US goverment and WhatsApp is safe for private communication?
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  Right!? Anyone who believes Facebook's WhatsApp is actually end to end encrypted and gives no access to the message data is laughably naive.
  - renaudg 8y ago
    I don't usual respond to conspiracist posts, but maybe you're going to take Moxie Marlinspike's word for it ? https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/ https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/
    - HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
      Conspiracy theories aside, why would anyone's word be sufficient? How about the code? Give us the code, then we don't need anyone's promises. Enough with promises!
      - xkarga00 8y ago
        Even the code is not enough, is it? Once you have it, how do you know that's what they deploy?
        HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
        I deploy my own code.
emilfihlman 8y ago
WhatsApp has horrible user experience compared to Telegram. And that's low hanging fruit.
dontchooseanick 8y ago
Do you feel like WhatsApp is open-source and can be found on f-droid ?

If polish is broadly defined as "something that was hitherto still missing in (claimed-to-be) end to end encrypted chat applications", then open source and a decent profit model are definitely features lacking from WhatsApp. Telegram is open source, but one has to consciously turn on encryption and it doesn't work on the web or desktop clients (and the profit model is non-existent). Signal doesn't work without Google services and requires a phone number and turned-on phone iirc (and their profit model seems to be extorting companies like Wire and helping closed source software like Whatsapp advertise with Signal-level encryption). Wire is the best of all, but the Android app drains battery and everything is web (slow, bulky; Electron). None of the above work in a decentralized manner, either. I don't know much about Matrix or Riot.im (from what I remembered, it was a implemented IRC alternative), but if it delivers on all of the above (and the article sure sounds like it), then it's definitely polishing up some final features that were still missing!

cdancette 8y ago
Telegram is not really open source. The server is not, and the Android code is updated months after each update, all commits being squashed(see issue[1]). Also their new app (Telegram X) is not open source. [1] https://github.com/DrKLO/Telegram/pull/1431 https://github.com/DrKLO/Telegram/pull/1431
zeratax 8y ago
you can use signal without any google services though, for more than a year now even. related commit: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/commit/1669731329bcc32c84e33035a67a2fc22444c24b https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/commit/166973132... pretty difficult to find the raw apk though: https://signal.org/android/apk/ https://signal.org/android/apk/ about matrix: you will probably end up having to use the electron riot app for a while, but the community is working hard on native clients, but afaik no client has e2ee in any usable state implemented yet (but a lot of progress is being made). I think the matrix.org team acts as a non-profit organisation, but most of the core team is also hired by New Vector where, I think the planned profit model is to run matrix instances as a service. there's some stuff about the funding in the faq: https://matrix.org/docs/guides/faq.html#what-kind-of-company-is-matrixorg https://matrix.org/docs/guides/faq.html#what-kind-of-company...
- lucb1e 8y ago
  > you can use signal without any google services though, for more than a year now even. I tried it less than a year ago, because I had heard that too, but it still didn't work. I should try again on my new phone I guess.
snthd 8y ago
>Signal doesn't work without Google services Not true, it has a websockets alternative to gcm. >and requires a phone number The phone number can be anything you control. >and turned-on phone iirc Yes >(and their profit model seems to be extorting companies like Wire and helping closed source software like Whatsapp advertise with Signal-level encryption). It (now) has its own nonprofit backing it (and a generous benefactor). It's not trying to be profitable. The "extortion" thing seems to have been about wire using signal code in breach of copyright (ie not complying with the open source license). Signal has stated that the goal of working with WhatsApp (and others) is to make good crypto be used as widely as possible. Matrix crypto is also based on what's used in signal. >Wire is the best of all, but the Android app drains battery and everything is web Signal is very polished (at least on Android - I'm not familiar with the ios app).
- HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
  You do not control a phone number. You can control an SSL cert using DNSSEC. So you cannot control your signal end-point. Besides, the signal server is in total control of your identity. Plus anyone might still use the phone number to send plain-text SMS'. TLDR: If you don't control the server, there is no security guarantee. So signal, whatsapp and telegram are out.
  - dbt00 8y ago
    DNSSEC is as secure as SMS.
    - HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
      But signal also uses name servers to connect clients. HIP, the host identity protocol, is the answer. Check out my nick. I'm not a big fan of the current naming system of the internet. Self-certifying names are needed. Edit: If DNSSEC is as secure as sms, then signal is as secure as sms.
      - acct1771 8y ago
prophesi 8y ago
Very surprised to never see Keybase mentioned in these discussions. Everything, even the team chats, are end-to-end encrypted with a pretty slick interface. You can even send E2E-encrypted messages/files to people who haven't even joined yet! https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-chat https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-chat
- SamPatt 8y ago
  Agreed. Their service is great.
- pnutjam 8y ago
  I'm using this, they recently increased their free storage to 250gb.

xkarga00 8y ago

Do you really believe that Facebook (US company) has not complied with the US goverment and WhatsApp is safe for private communication?

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
Right!? Anyone who believes Facebook's WhatsApp is actually end to end encrypted and gives no access to the message data is laughably naive.
- renaudg 8y ago
  I don't usual respond to conspiracist posts, but maybe you're going to take Moxie Marlinspike's word for it ? https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/ https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/
  - HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
    Conspiracy theories aside, why would anyone's word be sufficient? How about the code? Give us the code, then we don't need anyone's promises. Enough with promises!
    - xkarga00 8y ago
      Even the code is not enough, is it? Once you have it, how do you know that's what they deploy?
      - HIPisTheAnswer 8y ago
        I deploy my own code.

emilfihlman 8y ago

WhatsApp has horrible user experience compared to Telegram. And that's low hanging fruit.

dontchooseanick 8y ago

Do you feel like WhatsApp is open-source and can be found on f-droid ?