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Hard to Believe: Film Explores Chinese Regime’s Killing of Prisoners for Organs

41 points by auganov 9y ago

lopmotr 9y ago
Not to deny the moral hazard of using prisoners for organs, but being a Falun Gong member in China is like being an active ISIS member in the US/UK. Whatever's right or wrong, you know you're committing a crime and you're taking a risk by participating. Keeping safe is a matter of following the law even if you don't believe in it.
- scandox 9y ago
  Moral hazard? Moral Hazard puts one in the way of making an immoral choice. Surely killing people to take their body parts represents an actual immoral action? I didn't miss a memo or anything?
  - wisty 9y ago
    They don't kill people to take body parts. They execute convicted criminals, and those prisoners automatically become organ donors. One example of the potential moral hazard is that maybe there's some corruption (maybe there's some profit being made, and judges could get kickbacks on the number of times they execute prisoners).
    - growlix 9y ago
      Who decided what constitutes a crime, and who gets convicted and executed? China isn't exactly known for the fairness of its justice system. And the quantity, youth, and low latency of organs for transplant exclude every possibility except harvesting.
- binarnosp 9y ago
  > Keeping safe is a matter of following the law even if you don't believe in it You should thank your ancestors for fighting the laws they didn't believe in.
- thisacctforreal 9y ago
  The government promoted Falun Gong for its health effects before they decided to crush it like June 4th. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T_cURws4UaY&t=5m32s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T_cURws4UaY&t=5m32s It's definitely like being targeted as a member of ISIS–but all you did to get that treatment was practice yoga and hold some spiritual beliefs.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  Erm, "but being a Falun Gong member in China is like being an active ISIS member in the US/UK" from the view of the ruling party, yes. But for everybody else there is a slight difference, between a fanatic cult who wants and does try to kill everyone who thinks different and a eccentric cult whose members wants to be left alone, to do their Qi Gong.
- growlix 9y ago
  ISIS desires to create an authoritarian regime and commit acts of violence and destruction against most of the world's population. The Falun Gong desires to exist.
JudasGoat 9y ago
I would hope this will shame western corporations that contribute to China's surveillance machine. China is a large and potentially lucrative market. How much profit is one life worth?
downandout 9y ago
From what I have seen of Xi Jinping, he looks, acts, and speaks like a somewhat reasonable world leader. Certainly not the type of person capable of allowing a horrific atrocity like this. Now all I will be able to picture when I see him is Hitler, as this is the kind of thing that the Nazis did. It does at least put the petty political squabbles we have in the US in perspective. Say what you will about Trump - he isn't killing people and cutting out their organs.
- baud147258 9y ago
  The nazis used the remains of the Jew from extermination camps as fertilizer. So yeah, that's the kind of the things the nazis did.
- lopmotr 9y ago
  Didn't you hear about the nationwide political purge he's just spent a few years doing? Or changing the law to remove term limit on the presidency (conveniently, himself)?
- blackbagboys 9y ago
  Most of the people responsible for the most vicious atrocities in history look, act, and speak like reasonable people. In the U.S., staid corporate lawyer types like John Dulles have been responsible for vastly more human suffering than outlandish super villain caricatures like Trump (not to say he's good). Recently I've been reading up on the history of lynchings and violent strikebreaking in the U.S. - one of the chilling things about that kind of history is the people who ordered or participated in anti-black or anti-labor death squads were usually reasonable, sober, responsible community leaders, businessmen, local lawyers and Chamber of Commerce types. Always be suspicious of people with power, especially people with the power of life and death.
- s_kilk 9y ago
  Maybe some day we'll all realise that Optics are meaningless.
- ShabbosGoy 9y ago
  > Certainly not the type of person capable of allowing a horrific atrocity like this. You’d be surprised at how quickly power twists and warps one’s morality.
oceanman888 9y ago
I know this is really fucked up but this inspired me to come up with presale of human organ: ie, You sign to give up your organs when you decease, and get paid while you are alive.
- baud147258 9y ago
  The problem is that the company?/agency? paying for your organs can't know that they will be usable or even that you will die in a way that your organs can be retreived. I had a discussion with a medical student, where she explained that not all deaths results in a body that from which organs could be used. The discussion was prompted by a recent law that made citizens of our country organ donor by default (if you don't have a card stating you're not an organ donor or if you haven't registered as not an organ donor, you're considered one) and she said that death where the organs could be used where way less frequent. Edit: yes, the family/relatives are consulted before
  - oceanman888 9y ago
    Nor do the health insurance company. The company profit out of accidents and parts like cornea from people who die at an older age. In japan on the back of all the public insurance card there is a place to state do you want to give up you organs for free if you die accidentally. You carry it everywhere and have are required to sign it. If you think about it again, maybe it is better to our organs to a private company than the government.
  - oceanman888 9y ago
    -> (if you don't have a card stating you're not an organ donor or if you haven't registered as not an organ donor, you're considered one). That does not sounds right. (default is not donating here in JP) but I am sure relatives are consulted about this. ->she said that death where the organs could be used where way less frequent. Interesting, though you need the numbers to find out whether you can make profit out of it.(How often do people need an organ transplant?)(I assume if this is to be real, you would "buy" organs from 3rd world countries(where a few hundred dollars mean a lot to them) and sell the organs at the states.)
sabalaba 9y ago
Epoch Times is founded by and run by Falun Gong members. Just keep in mind that anything they publish is extremely biased towards an anti-PRC stance. In the same way that you should keep in mind that consuming media from Voice of America or RT is respectively biased towards a pro-American and pro-Russian stance.
- auganov 9y ago
  Keep in mind sabalaba has an ongoing business interest in the PRC. The company they co-founded touts the CCP-aligned Tencent as one of it's customers. Per own bio, sabalaba has also co-founded a Beijing based incubator.
  - hutzlibu 9y ago
    Oh I will, but he is nevertheless right, when he warns of propaganda, right? I mean, he forgot to include the chinese media as possible biased towards china, but I read it like he is also very aware of that fact.
    - auganov 9y ago
      Kind of. Likening Falun Gong v. China to USA v. Russia is misleading. Nation state conflicts are usually pretty mutli-dimensional. Economy, geopolitics, ideology, religion etc. The strife between the Falun Gong and China is limited to the issue of systematic murder and opression of their followers. Furthermore the characterization of Falun Gong as a well defined organization with concrete political or ideological goals is in-line with CCP propaganda. Say somebody calls out a Jewish publication for having an anti-Nazi stance. Surely, it's likely to be true at face value. Yet it's hard not to notice the insidiousness. Unless sabalaba is willing to damage their business interest, their only choice is to remain silent or take a stance the CCP doesn't mind.
oceanman888 9y ago
"Killing prisoner for organs" is click-bait. Whether it is OK arresting and killing Falungon believers is a different story. They are only harvesting from dead bodies here. Seems there are countries where you donate your organs automatically if you die in an accident. Not to say executing for profit is not a possibility. PS. In China donating organ is considered taboo traditionally.
- nicolas_t 9y ago
  That's the thing. I fully believe that the Chinese government might harvest organs after execution... But if they stopped that practice because of foreign pressure, they wouldn't necessarily stop executing members of Falun Gong because they consider any form of religion with a cult of personality to be a threat. Pragmatically, if those people still get executed anyway because of their religion (and that's unlikely to stop), is the world a better place if they harvest organs and save some people with them or is it a better place if they throw away those organs and don't save anyone with them? The only argument against that I can think of is that the profit made from organ reselling could cause more people to be executed than would normally be the case but I wonder how true that is.
JudasGoat 9y ago
As to the moral quality of people that are exploited for their organs, please remember all that they have to do to escape their fate is to sign a renunciation of Falun Gong. A little different than common criminals.

41 points by auganov 9y ago

Not to deny the moral hazard of using prisoners for organs, but being a Falun Gong member in China is like being an active ISIS member in the US/UK. Whatever's right or wrong, you know you're committing a crime and you're taking a risk by participating. Keeping safe is a matter of following the law even if you don't believe in it.

scandox 9y ago
Moral hazard? Moral Hazard puts one in the way of making an immoral choice. Surely killing people to take their body parts represents an actual immoral action? I didn't miss a memo or anything?
- wisty 9y ago
  They don't kill people to take body parts. They execute convicted criminals, and those prisoners automatically become organ donors. One example of the potential moral hazard is that maybe there's some corruption (maybe there's some profit being made, and judges could get kickbacks on the number of times they execute prisoners).
  - growlix 9y ago
    Who decided what constitutes a crime, and who gets convicted and executed? China isn't exactly known for the fairness of its justice system. And the quantity, youth, and low latency of organs for transplant exclude every possibility except harvesting.
binarnosp 9y ago
> Keeping safe is a matter of following the law even if you don't believe in it You should thank your ancestors for fighting the laws they didn't believe in.
thisacctforreal 9y ago
The government promoted Falun Gong for its health effects before they decided to crush it like June 4th. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T_cURws4UaY&t=5m32s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T_cURws4UaY&t=5m32s It's definitely like being targeted as a member of ISIS–but all you did to get that treatment was practice yoga and hold some spiritual beliefs.
hutzlibu 9y ago
Erm, "but being a Falun Gong member in China is like being an active ISIS member in the US/UK" from the view of the ruling party, yes. But for everybody else there is a slight difference, between a fanatic cult who wants and does try to kill everyone who thinks different and a eccentric cult whose members wants to be left alone, to do their Qi Gong.
growlix 9y ago
ISIS desires to create an authoritarian regime and commit acts of violence and destruction against most of the world's population. The Falun Gong desires to exist.

JudasGoat 9y ago

I would hope this will shame western corporations that contribute to China's surveillance machine. China is a large and potentially lucrative market. How much profit is one life worth?

downandout 9y ago

From what I have seen of Xi Jinping, he looks, acts, and speaks like a somewhat reasonable world leader. Certainly not the type of person capable of allowing a horrific atrocity like this. Now all I will be able to picture when I see him is Hitler, as this is the kind of thing that the Nazis did. It does at least put the petty political squabbles we have in the US in perspective. Say what you will about Trump - he isn't killing people and cutting out their organs.

baud147258 9y ago
The nazis used the remains of the Jew from extermination camps as fertilizer. So yeah, that's the kind of the things the nazis did.
lopmotr 9y ago
Didn't you hear about the nationwide political purge he's just spent a few years doing? Or changing the law to remove term limit on the presidency (conveniently, himself)?
blackbagboys 9y ago
Most of the people responsible for the most vicious atrocities in history look, act, and speak like reasonable people. In the U.S., staid corporate lawyer types like John Dulles have been responsible for vastly more human suffering than outlandish super villain caricatures like Trump (not to say he's good). Recently I've been reading up on the history of lynchings and violent strikebreaking in the U.S. - one of the chilling things about that kind of history is the people who ordered or participated in anti-black or anti-labor death squads were usually reasonable, sober, responsible community leaders, businessmen, local lawyers and Chamber of Commerce types. Always be suspicious of people with power, especially people with the power of life and death.
s_kilk 9y ago
Maybe some day we'll all realise that Optics are meaningless.
ShabbosGoy 9y ago
> Certainly not the type of person capable of allowing a horrific atrocity like this. You’d be surprised at how quickly power twists and warps one’s morality.

oceanman888 9y ago

I know this is really fucked up but this inspired me to come up with presale of human organ: ie, You sign to give up your organs when you decease, and get paid while you are alive.

baud147258 9y ago
The problem is that the company?/agency? paying for your organs can't know that they will be usable or even that you will die in a way that your organs can be retreived. I had a discussion with a medical student, where she explained that not all deaths results in a body that from which organs could be used. The discussion was prompted by a recent law that made citizens of our country organ donor by default (if you don't have a card stating you're not an organ donor or if you haven't registered as not an organ donor, you're considered one) and she said that death where the organs could be used where way less frequent. Edit: yes, the family/relatives are consulted before
- oceanman888 9y ago
  Nor do the health insurance company. The company profit out of accidents and parts like cornea from people who die at an older age. In japan on the back of all the public insurance card there is a place to state do you want to give up you organs for free if you die accidentally. You carry it everywhere and have are required to sign it. If you think about it again, maybe it is better to our organs to a private company than the government.
- oceanman888 9y ago
  -> (if you don't have a card stating you're not an organ donor or if you haven't registered as not an organ donor, you're considered one). That does not sounds right. (default is not donating here in JP) but I am sure relatives are consulted about this. ->she said that death where the organs could be used where way less frequent. Interesting, though you need the numbers to find out whether you can make profit out of it.(How often do people need an organ transplant?)(I assume if this is to be real, you would "buy" organs from 3rd world countries(where a few hundred dollars mean a lot to them) and sell the organs at the states.)

sabalaba 9y ago

Epoch Times is founded by and run by Falun Gong members. Just keep in mind that anything they publish is extremely biased towards an anti-PRC stance. In the same way that you should keep in mind that consuming media from Voice of America or RT is respectively biased towards a pro-American and pro-Russian stance.

auganov 9y ago
Keep in mind sabalaba has an ongoing business interest in the PRC. The company they co-founded touts the CCP-aligned Tencent as one of it's customers. Per own bio, sabalaba has also co-founded a Beijing based incubator.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  Oh I will, but he is nevertheless right, when he warns of propaganda, right? I mean, he forgot to include the chinese media as possible biased towards china, but I read it like he is also very aware of that fact.
  - auganov 9y ago
    Kind of. Likening Falun Gong v. China to USA v. Russia is misleading. Nation state conflicts are usually pretty mutli-dimensional. Economy, geopolitics, ideology, religion etc. The strife between the Falun Gong and China is limited to the issue of systematic murder and opression of their followers. Furthermore the characterization of Falun Gong as a well defined organization with concrete political or ideological goals is in-line with CCP propaganda. Say somebody calls out a Jewish publication for having an anti-Nazi stance. Surely, it's likely to be true at face value. Yet it's hard not to notice the insidiousness. Unless sabalaba is willing to damage their business interest, their only choice is to remain silent or take a stance the CCP doesn't mind.

oceanman888 9y ago

"Killing prisoner for organs" is click-bait. Whether it is OK arresting and killing Falungon believers is a different story. They are only harvesting from dead bodies here. Seems there are countries where you donate your organs automatically if you die in an accident. Not to say executing for profit is not a possibility. PS. In China donating organ is considered taboo traditionally.

nicolas_t 9y ago
That's the thing. I fully believe that the Chinese government might harvest organs after execution... But if they stopped that practice because of foreign pressure, they wouldn't necessarily stop executing members of Falun Gong because they consider any form of religion with a cult of personality to be a threat. Pragmatically, if those people still get executed anyway because of their religion (and that's unlikely to stop), is the world a better place if they harvest organs and save some people with them or is it a better place if they throw away those organs and don't save anyone with them? The only argument against that I can think of is that the profit made from organ reselling could cause more people to be executed than would normally be the case but I wonder how true that is.

JudasGoat 9y ago

As to the moral quality of people that are exploited for their organs, please remember all that they have to do to escape their fate is to sign a renunciation of Falun Gong. A little different than common criminals.