14 ms·

Giving Up on the Current MacBook Pro Keyboard

274 points by tomduncalf 9y ago

notadoc 9y ago
The new MacBook Pro (2016 to current) is a mess on multiple levels, the entire thing should be scrapped and redesigned. The 2015 model and before remains the best Mac laptop, it's too bad they couldn't just update that to have 32GB RAM and a modern CPU. The keyboard is already great, it already has many ports that are widely used, it has a hardware escape key and function keys, it does not have an annoying touch bar, it's an upgrade in every possible way compared to the newer mess for what a "pro" user actually cares about.
- ridgeguy 9y ago
  This. I bought a 2015 from the Apple refurb store rather than a new 2016 model for just the reasons you cite.
  - amac 9y ago
    Likewise. Don't regret the decision.
- rdl 9y ago
  I have a loaded late-2013; it feels weird that I can have basically any laptop in the world that I want, but there's such marginal improvement in 2015 vs. 2013, and actual regression from 2015 to 2018, that my mac is almost 5 years old. (I have a 64GB RAM Acer for workstation use, though.)
calebm 9y ago
Literally today, my wife took her Macbook (bought last year) to the Genius bar to get the Enter key fixed - you had to press really hard to get it to take. The repair person just cleaned off the underside of the key. They said they didn't even see any debris. I think there is a real design flaw here.
canuckintime 9y ago
Here's the direct link to Casey Johnston's article: https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-macbook-pros-even-on-sale-in-my-opinion https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-macbook-pr...
starpilot 9y ago
Big /r/apple thread about MBP keyboard issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/83frmc/macbook_pro_2016_3rd_butterfly_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/83frmc/macbook_pro_2... The subreddit is mostly rabid diehard Apple fans, so the amount of discussion there on this is telling. I'm on my 7 year old MacBook Air and I've never had keyboard issues. Looks like I'll be waiting for the 2018 MBP to upgrade.
- YetAnotherNick 9y ago
  I have a 4 year old macbook air, and if they just upgrade the screen, I will definitely buy one more today.
Osiris 9y ago
I definitely prefer my 2015 MBP over the TouchBar models. The 1 thing I DO like about the new models is universal USB-C charging. I have an Anker USB-A/USB-C charger for my phone and it charges my TouchBar MBP just fine. Beats having to buy an expensive Apple charger to have one at home and one at the office. Other than that, the 2015 has USB-A, HDMI, better keyboard, smaller touchpad, and actual Fn keys.
- JamesPeters 9y ago
  no way would i give up magsafe for usb-c
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    USB-C has been better than MagSafe for me for 3 reasons: 1) Can charge off either side, which has solved most of the cases MagSafe helped me with 2) I can replace just the cable with a cheap third-party one instead of replacing the whole expensive Apple charger when their crap cable falls apart 3) Can extend my battery life off a regular USB power bank
porsager 9y ago
Suffering the same issue on my 3 months old mbp. Never had any keyboard issues on my previous one from 2012.
proee 9y ago
I wonder what actually changed in the new design that causes this problem? The travel is obviously shorter butsomething else is fundamentally causing the problem. Does it have a smaller surface area/pad, different pad material, different coating etc...
- lbotos 9y ago
  For mine, it's basically any speck of debris that get's lodged, it fails to register the press until that debris moves to another spot. I think the tolerances for "pressed" are too small for "real world" use. Any crumb will "lock up" the key.
  - proee 9y ago
    Maybe previous versions had a better "dust keepout" or the contact pad is larger so more resistant to dust.
    - mypalmike 9y ago
      Previous versions were of a different design such that you could shove a small sandwich under the keys and they'd still work.
  - pervycreeper 9y ago
    The old trackpads on Apple laptops (pre-force touch) suffered from the same vulnerability, but there didn't seem to be a whole lot of outcry over it.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  It is a completely different design. The old one was basically a dimpled rubber sheet with some plastic-scissor-stabilized keycaps over the top. The new one is made of little buckling metal parts. They mainly changed designs so that they could make the keyboard thinner – the new one is something like half the depth, or less. Since key travel is reduced, they needed a snappier mechanism to keep enough tactile feel. The feel of the new keyboards is actually impressively okay for something with so little key travel. (Personally I would prefer something with the snap of the new keyboard and at least as much travel as the old keyboard.) The problem is that the little metal pieces get easily slightly bent and stop snapping as much as they should, and also dust gets into the contact mechanism and stops keys from registering.
bengale 9y ago
I’m on my third now and just booking to take it back with more failing keys. Useless compared to the old ones.
zitterbewegung 9y ago
I have had no problems with the current Macbook Pro keyboard. Am I in the minority? I also love the feel of it. I really like the low travel and the Touchbar helps a bunch with my RSI. I don't use the Trackpad at all unless I really need to. I also use Emacs which gives you an idea of how much I use the keyboard.
- analogmemory 9y ago
  I've only had problems when I eat food and use my laptop. Some crumbs get under a key and then prevents it from traveling. Usually i get some canned air and try to blow it out. I could see it being a bigger problem for other in places that are extra dusty
- tomduncalf 9y ago
  I had very few problems (the keyboard sometimes stuck but quickly fixed) until my spacebar went suddenly this weekend. Seems to be a case of when, not if, which won’t be good for resale value of this generation. It’s a nice laptop in many ways though.
- ngokevin 9y ago
  Had mine for almost a year. There was a couple times the shift key had to press really hard, but just hitting it really hard rapidly usually realigned it. The back of my Macbook screen does make intermittent popping sounds though.
- dpkonofa 9y ago
  I don't know why you're getting downvoted. I said this in another post somewhere too but I love the new MBP keyboards. I've had my current machine since launch with no issues whatsoever and I'm a web and software dev so I pretty much type all day long. The low travel is amazing and I love both the trackpad and the touch bar. I have no issues with the machine so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :-P
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    returned my mbp 2016 for a number of reasons, and... was mixed on keyboard and trackpad. keyboard - generally liked the feel more than the previous 2015 model, but... it was louder. noticeably louder, even if I tried to type lighter. Definitely created some friction in situations where none existed before. And... MBP2016 trackpad size - just was too large for my liking. I knew of no one demanding a larger trackpad, but know of many people (myself included) who had some issues with the larger trackpad (stray palm issues, etc). The few people I know who liked or wanted a larger trackpad used an external one, which had the bonus (for them) of being movable.
wilwade 9y ago
Lots of trouble with mine as well. Key presses getting doubled or more. Especially on the "b" key. Had to replace the entire key and membrane and clean underneath the glued membrane to get it working again. (was 2 months out of warranty) Also had the left command key just fall off. I know I rest my finger on it, but it shouldn't just fall off. I like the low travel that some complain about, but any keyboard is useless if it doesn't work consistently.
- mafro 9y ago
  Thanks for commenting. I have the same problem with the "b" on my 18mo MBP. Can you elaborate or link-to some more info on "replace the entire key and membrane"? Apple want to replace the top-case at AUD $650...
  - wilwade 9y ago
    I didn't find any how to, so here is a bit of what I did: Failed: compressed air Failed: cleaning under the key. Success: Remove the key (careful, these keys really like to break the bottom u hooks) Remove the butterfly Peel off the glued membrane Cleaned all with 90% alcohol. Took a new membrane (you might be able to use old) and used E6000 glue and a toothpick to glue it back (don't get the contacts). Replaced butterfly and key. Not a good solution, but it worked. I got the key, butterfly, and membrane from replacementlaptopkeys.com. It looked like the contacts were getting coated/corroded and not making good contact? Perhaps heat?
- 9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
  Just FYI, some credit cards extend manufacturer warranties to two years, so may be worth looking into it. Also, which model do you have? Some non-TB 2016-2017 13" MBP are eligible for a free topcase replacement for battery issues.
  - wilwade 9y ago
    It's the TB 15". I thought about seeing if I could go into an Apple store and see if I could get them to do it, but I am currently 2 hours away from the closest real one.
protomyth 9y ago
I took mine in and the Apple Genius just tried to clean it to no avail. So, I have a broken "b" key and need to send it in to get it fixed. The "guy who could take the keycaps off wasn't there" despite the pre-questions Apple asks before the appointment scheduling. I'm going to wait a bit. I was one of the people who took their iPhone 6 in and paid full price for the battery (3 times because 3 of the 4 phones we bought had the same problem). I plug it into thunderbolt 3 docks at home and work, so I guess I can hold out until Apple admits it sucks and has an actual fix. I'm under AppleCare but I just don't see the gain in sending it in to get replaced by another keyboard that will break again.
rdxm 9y ago
just laid my 2013 MBP to rest after full 12 oz water spill onto keyboard. Have no doubt it would have lasted much longer were it not for my fumble. Have a new MBP with old-stool keyboard (yes I have and esc key), and it feels good so far, but oh boy will I be pissed if it shits the bed. these things are too expensive to fail that easily. "design" is one thing but, fragiltiy not ok.
beaugunderson 9y ago
I'm on this model and have now had to replace four keys from the QWERTY row (E, R, T, and O). The issue is that the pinchers at the top of the key no longer hold after a while, so the keys fall off. I do like having four E keys, though. (Rather than try to guess which key would fail next I just bought a bunch of E keys). When I took it to an Apple store they told me they couldn't just replace the keys and wanted to do a whole top case, leaving me without my computer for a week. I think they guessed (correctly) that if you have one key come up that the rest will follow. My "I" key is feeling loose and will probably go in the next week or two.
- mattbeckman 9y ago
  The "S" and "Command" keys kept falling off on my '16 MBP. Replaced them at $12/piece a few days ago from an online store. My issue appears to have been the brackets on the keys themselves perhaps broke or wore down over time due to how impressively fast and heroically accurate I type.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
    Apple Stores CAN get the keycaps for these models. I think they default to replacing the top case because replacing the keycaps themselves don't always resolve the issue, but if you ask nicely at the apple store they may be willing to give you a few extra key caps if you're willing to install them yourself!
- 9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
  They can technically just replace the key caps, but it's possible it won't resolve the issue, or the top case may suffer more significant damage during the replacement and they don't want you to unexpectedly be without your computer for a week because the key cap repair failed. You could ask them to try it though.
tomduncalf 9y ago
Sorry, this one is kind of a dupe of my other post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476 - it disappeared off the front page so quickly that I thought I’d see if a Daring Fireball link fared better. Apparently this is just some kind of anti-spam for Apple related posts though so moderators please feel free to handle as appropriate!
- dang 9y ago
  We'll change the URL back to the original article (from https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-keyboard https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-ke...). That seems fairer, as well as in keeping with the site guidelines' call for original sources (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
StephenAmar 9y ago
I absolutely hate that keyboard. It just does not feel right and I can't write more than a few paragraphs without getting very frustrated.
- dandare 9y ago
  Funny how personal this is - I literally loved the keyboard on the first click. It feels strange when I have to occasionally type on my 2014 MacBook.
bdcravens 9y ago
When I was at RailsConf last week I realized (during a session while I was typing) how loud the keyboard is compared to the last gen
mchannon 9y ago
My experience: Joined a startup, raring to go, and they needed to get me a top-end MacBook Pro (16GB instead of 8GB as I recall). Apple stores in SF refused to stock the top-end, pointing me to their build-to-order options at the store. +5 days minimum. Went with a mail-order house and next day aired in a top-end MacBook Pro laptop (which they had plenty of in every color). Shift key was DOA. Took it in to the Apple store. They had the gall to tell me that since I didn't buy it directly from Apple, they wouldn't (not couldn't, wouldn't) repair it in store, but would send it to their warranty center in Houston (right after Harvey). Got it back fixed, but so many days wasted. Apple gets so many really difficult things right. Simple-seeming things like basic customer service and proactive quality control escape them.
- huebnerob 9y ago
  Apple doesn't repair anyone's laptop on site, they're all shipped to repair centers. And if they don't stock your configuration in store, there's no way to just hand you a new one either. I'm not saying your experience was any less shitty than it was, but there's nothing else they could have done than what they did.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    If the startup was serious about uptime they’d be part of the partner program and be given a loaner on devices
    - nerpderp83 9y ago
      And since that is the configuration everyone gets, they should have had it in possession already.
    - greedo 9y ago
      And the cost of keeping a spare or two in-house is negligible compared to the lost productivity.
  - clamprecht 9y ago
willtim 9y ago
Developers should just buy a ThinkPad and run Linux. A much more dependable machine and a far superior keyboard.
- komali2 9y ago
  I found an old Thinkpad laying around in the office once and just for shits and giggles decided to give the old Linux thing a try. Threw Ubuntu on it, hated it, tried again with Debian, now I'm a full convert. It's my main dev Machine but I've thrown a Debian VM on my PC at home for when I WFH and dual booted my MacBook I was using before with Debian. It's just... So clean...
- delinka 9y ago
  Until they have to build and test iOS apps...
  - justherefortart 9y ago
    Buy a used Mac Mini. They haven't been updated in like 5.5 years at this point. You can just remote into it. Or just build a hackintosh.
    - kitsunesoba 9y ago
      Neither is a good option for an established company — in that situation your app is likely too large/complex to compile quickly on a mini and the legal grayness associated with hackintoshing makes that a no go. At work I just use an external KB while I’m working at my desk (98% of the time), rendering the macbook’s internal KB almost entirely moot.
      - bananaboy 9y ago
        I agree. The Mac Mini is enticing as a build server because of its price and form factor, but goddamn does it feel slow. I suppose a Mac Pro would be a better choice but they are so much more expensive.
  - 9y ago
netman21 9y ago
I write for a living. Jumped on the new MacBok Pro without test driving it. ouldd not type with out making lots of errors. Gave it to my daughter and went with an Airbook. She bought a separate keyboard to use with the Macbook.
nkkollaw 9y ago
I had many problems with my MBP, and it came out so long after the last model, that I completely abandoned Apple after I'd say 8 years. I think there should've been a massive recall. I don't know why people put up with spending a fortune on a laptop and you can't even type on it...
chrischen 9y ago
I've had this problem and when I got an even newer mac I solved with a cheap plastic keyboard cover. It has completely solved the problem, but i'm dumbfounded as to why Apple hasn't simply fixed this by preventing stuff from getting under the keys using a similar method.
mynameishere 9y ago
I had to use a new Macbook pro for a while and didn't for one (willing) second use the keyboard. I've also used Windows and Linux laptops of various configurations and really never used the keyboards. I mean, a laptop keyboard is something you use on the airplane or at a meeting. But for real work? Never. Why do people torture themselves? But the Mac keyboards have been broken for a while. A pointless function key where the control key belongs? No one has explained that one to me yet. So, just keep the stupid thing shut and problem solved.
skeletonjelly 9y ago
> This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history. I feel like this is a bit overstated. What about "Just avoid holding it in that way", or Apple Maps v1, or the Magic Mouse 2 that requires you to stop using it to charge it?
- JeremyBanks 9y ago
  Having chronically defective keyboards on your computers is much worse than the examples you provided. > Just avoid holding it in that way Pretty minor defect when honestly compared with other options on the market at the time, blown out of proportion by the media. > Apple Maps v1 Forced move for business reasons, recognized by most Apple employees as shitty but inevitable. > Magic Mouse 2 A few minutes of downtime every month is annoying and maybe a mistake, but less critical than a non-functioning non-replaceable keyboard.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
    Yah seriously, I actually think the magic mouse v2 complaints are ridiculous. Apple Maps v1 WAS bad, but if you didn't like it, you could still use google maps.
  - ClassyJacket 9y ago
    The iPhone 4 antenna fault wasn't minor - I had that phone, and it was unusable without a case. If you were holding the phone, you had no signal.
    - tomwilson 9y ago
      I used it for a year with no case and didn’t drop a call once ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - ClassyJacket 9y ago
        We're probably both right. I did exaggerate slightly - what I said was true but not always - if you had a really strong signal the problem might not be noticeable, and I'd expect that the different frequency bands used in different countries made a difference as well. It was certainly a huge frustration for me - the product was not fit for purpose. Easily worked around sure, but still a big deal.
funkydata 9y ago
I'm still using/programming and typing on my 2010 17 inches MacBook Pro. The keyboard still works perfectly whereas my acquaintances that have bought newer models have had the keys falling, failing, discolour and whatnot. That and the ineffable mate screen and screen size. I've changed the memory, the hard drive and the battery to keep going and it's still going, albeit with more fan noise. I'm really afraid/don't want to switch to a new/lesser MacBook Pro.
- natvert 9y ago
  I'm in exactly the same situation. I just wish it had coffee lake, 32gb of ddr4 and a modern gpu - e.g. an upgrade. Who cares if it's marginally thinner and lighter? With Ubuntu 18.04, Linux is more usable than ever... already runs my desktop and I'll be switching my laptop to Linux as well unless Apple releases something more suitable for power users this summer.
- ScottBurson 9y ago
  My beloved matte-screen 2011 17-incher failed unrepairably a couple of months ago. I decided to get a new 2017 15-inch model rather than take my chances getting another 17-inch one off of eBay. I had read lots of complaints about the keyboard, so I was prepared to possibly hate it, but it's okay, though not quite as good as the old one. The Touch Bar and larger trackpad seem like gimmicks to me. Well, the Touch Bar has its moments of usefulness, but against that, I hit it accidentally too often, and it's sensitive to the slightest touch. Overall, I'm not unhappy, really. It is faster than my old one was, and much lighter, and has better battery life as long as I'm not doing anything CPU-intensive. Would I have been happier with the older 15-inch model they're still selling? In retrospect, I don't think I would have been any less happy, and I would have saved some money.
mediocrejoker 9y ago
I just this week purchased a 2015 refurb MacBook Pro (the last model year before the keyboard redesign) because of all the compromises one makes when choosing a Mac, an unreliable keyboard is where I draw the line.
thegayngler 9y ago
I guess Ive been lucky. I have avoided any keyboard issues with my rMBP w/TB. I love the keyboard. I wish it worked well for everyone else.
nerpderp83 9y ago
I had a key fail on a less than one year old touchbar MBP, corp had to swap out the whole laptop, with the old one going back to apple for repair. Ridiculous that you can't pop off the keys and fix them. 2015 was the last good year for MBP so far. My 2012 era machines are still running perfectly.
jetblackio 9y ago
In an office of 20+ developers on Macs, over half have had to get their keyboards replaced, and a few more just live with broken keys. This keyboard is truly awful. After 10 years on the Mac, I'll be switching to ThinkPad / Linux / Hackintosh if the next MBP doesn't fix the keyboard issue.
- echlebek 9y ago
  I spent 8 years writing Linux software on a Mac, with various configurations including SSH, VMWare and Docker development environments. For a while I was happy about this state of affairs, but over time I became increasingly dissatisfied. Late last year I started a new job and essentially demanded that I be allowed to choose my own hardware. I ended up getting a high-spec X1 Carbon and running a Fedora variant on it. It works very, very well. And the keyboard is great. I won't be going back to a mac any time soon.
  - narwally 9y ago
    Have you run into any issues with Wayland? I've been running Mint for the past few years, but the lack of fractional DPI scaling is frustrating so I've been considering switching to Fedora.
    - echlebek 9y ago
      I'm using Gnome with Wayland and I haven't had any issues. However, I'm not using fractional scaling either.
- foobarian 9y ago
  + And 32GB of RAM.
DamnInteresting 9y ago
Adding my gripe to the cacophony: I upgraded my 2012 MacBook Pro to the 2017 model because I wanted a bigger SSD and one more monitor than the old machine supported. Much of the time it's fine because I have it docked, giving me access to a regular external keyboard. But when I travel or use my treadmill desk, forcing me to use the built-in keyboard...ugh. The key travel distance provides poor tactile feedback, making it feel like I haven't pressed hard enough. And my typo rate goes through the roof. I didn't have those problems with my 2012. And Apple's decision to go with only USB-C is a constant source of inconvenience; I wrongly expected it would pass over time. All this, and no noticeable performance improvement. I still have the 2012, I haven't had time to prep it to sell. I'm seriously considering finding other ways to deal with its limitations so I can ditch this awful 2017 instead. What an expensive mistake.
outworlder 9y ago
They keyboard is bad. It may not be atrocious and I've seen some desktop keyboards with much larger key travel which are even more unpleasant. But good it is not. Which is surprising, because Apple created the best chiclet-style keyboards in the past. The older mabooks and the airs are completely acceptable. The Apple "magic" keyboard is actually pleasant to type on and I bought a third party keyboard which mimics it, although cheaper and 'solar' powered. They made bad compromises. People who actually needed a macbook pro were not asking for a slimmer package. People focusing on size and weight might. Case in point: I bought a Macbook (not pro, but with second gen butterfly switches) for my wife, she doesn't seem to mind, even when typing essays. She is not a touch typist however. I'm typing this in a Macbook Pro at work, but using a bluetooth keyboard, so it is a non issue. At home, same deal, except I'm planning to upgrade to a mechanical keyboard. If I am on the go, then I'll have to use the integrated keyboard. But this is rare for me. If you only use it on the go occasionally, then the keyboard may not be a deal breaker. Still, my Dell Chromebook has a MUCH better keyboard, and it only cost me a couple hundred bucks. This is seriously wrong.
- brandall10 9y ago
  The OP is not making a case that the keyboard feels bad, he's saying it's questionably fragile design - as a tool, it is unreliable. I can concur, have had sometimes flakey keys going on 1.5 years now. I'm fairly adept at removing the keycaps but have several that trigger double-presses from time to time. It's frustrating.
9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
For anyone suffering from this problem on a 13" MBP non-touchbar with an elapsed warranty: you may be eligible for a free topcase replacement (the part that houses the keyboard) as Apple has identified some models that have defective batteries (and a battery repair == new topcase == new keyboard). Info here and serial number checker here: https://www.apple.com/ca/support/13inch-macbookpro-battery-replacement/ https://www.apple.com/ca/support/13inch-macbookpro-battery-r...
keyle 9y ago
My B and J occasionally stuff up. J sporadically doesn't work and then JJ happens. Sigh. I admit it's a pleasure to type on this keyboard all day long though. I was toroughly disappointed when I bought the $179 'magic keyboard' from Apple (the dark one from the mac pro), and found out the tech is the outdated keyboards, with 2.5x price tag! No single key problem on this keyboard can overshadow its biggest problem: the useless arrow keys.
- jimejim 9y ago
  I had to have my keyboard replaced twice due to BB repeat issues. Same key both times even though they supposedly replaced the entire top of the keyboard. I still prefer working on an external keyboard, but when it's working fine I don't mind it so much.
chendragon 9y ago
I bought one of these things last year around September. I had the 12 inch 2016 MacBook before it. tl;dr buy a keyboard cover if you have this machine, or just contend with cleaning under the key with alcohol. I've had a fairly good experience with the keyboard on these machines. The 12 inch MacBook had a perfect keyboard. I love the low travel keyboard and they really got it right. But then on the MacBook Pro, it seems like the butterfly mechanism was changed to make it more susceptible to foreign matter causing key malfunctions. Admittedly I eat at the computer, so this is probably my fault, but the 12 inch MacBook didn't do this. Either way, every time oddities like double characters or non-responsive keys happened, I'd carefully pry up the key, use a q-tip soaked in 70% isopropyl alcohol and just clean out the area. You have to get a LITTLE bit of alcohol into the actual switch dome. Basically, you take the q tip with alcohol on it and dab the middle of the little dome madly for a while. Then you stick the key back on and it usually works. I got really unhappy about how often this started happening, especially since some keys' retention clips broke after so many removal cycles, so I just bought a silicone keyboard cover (the MoKo) one off Amazon. It held the keys in place. No more problems. That's what it took. It works great now. And the cover doesn't even make it terrible to type on, due to the low travel.
- fouc 9y ago
  The downvotes are probably because you can't pop the keys on these newer keyboards anymore, so the alcohol method doesn't apply here. A keyboard cover does seem necessary.
  - chendragon 9y ago
    Did they change them after the 2016 touch bar models?
  - james-mcelwain 9y ago
    Apple support literally tells you not to use a keyboard cover, which I find kind of amusing given how prone to breakage the new keyboard is without one: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203671 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203671
- 9y ago
neximo64 9y ago
I moved to a Surface (and absolutely love it!) after going through 2 12" Retina Macbooks and being fed up with having to take the laptop to Apple as they're the only ones able to safely remove the keys and put them back on. It was a nuisance when a laptop designed for portability cant be carried around easily. I found when its vertical/in a backpack it lets dust move around and settle under the keys. Every time I carry it around previously unlocked keys end up 'sticky' & it constantly needs cleaning. With the Surface and WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) its quite refreshing with Windows 10. On occasion I do still use the mac for Xcode but that's about it. Not to mention the alcantara keyboard is an absolute pleasure to use.
jen729w 9y ago
Any Australians here? With our excellent consumer laws I’d love to hear stories of these being taken back. 13” TB owner here with a double-responding \. Haven’t done anything about it because 95% of the time I’m using an external Filco.
- plaguuuuuu 9y ago
  I've read that we're entitled to free warranty repair/replacement, even outside the stated warranty period, if a product could reasonably be expected to work for x years and breaks before then. Since even cheap laptop keyboards work basically forever it seems likely to be eligible?
  - exikyut 9y ago
    Hmm. (Massive) Australia Tax notwithstanding, I wonder if people could buy things "via" Australia in order to be able to send them back and benefit from the country's consumer replacement laws and such. Would be fiddly, but I wonder if it would be worth it?
rjplatte 9y ago
I went from a Thinkpad to the 2017 13 inch MBP w/touch bar. I'm a light typist, and I actually like the keyboard. No issues for 6 months, good actuation force. Of course, sometimes I plug in the Das just to be loud. :-)
- batiudrami 9y ago
  Come on mate at least read the article - it's about a manufacturing/QA issue; not ergonomics.
  - rjplatte 9y ago
    I did. No issues. I like it, it works.
mypalmike 9y ago
The keyboard/trackpad combination of the last decade of Macbooks (Air/Pro) were basically perfect. I like the OS, and I've never found a PC laptop to come remotely close to the sweet ergonomics of those Macbooks. And then I got a 2017 Macbook Pro at my new job. Never mind that the keys are reported to stick (mine haven't yet), it just feels terrible. Virtually zero throw in the switch. And a personal pet peeve, they made the same mistake Microsoft did with their ergo keyboard for 1 sad iteration (before they fixed it in later models) - they changed the arrow keys from the standard upside-down T layout to a diamond layout. Those designers at Apple wanted symmetry so they made it happen. Too bad it kills the ergonomics. But the trackpad is where it really goes downhill. It's physically huge for no good reason. Worse (and the reason I'm seriously looking to see if I can swap it for an older model), it routinely (like 20% of the time) mistakes 1- and 2-finger clicks for each other. I never know which it's going to do. I never experienced this at all with any of my older Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs. Good luck giving a presentation - you're awkwardly fumbling with context menus when you don't want them, etc... audience will think you've never used a computer before. And yes, I've disabled all the stupid gesture stuff because it was even worse before I did so. The "only 2 USB C ports and a headphone jack" is the icing on the cake. I could live with it if it were the only issue, but it just annoys me that I need to bring a docking station with me to stay plugged in while presenting and using any usb peripheral. What's the benefit here - maybe 1/2 mm thinner?
- simonebrunozzi 9y ago
  100% seconded on everything you said. Same issues with me. Same thinking. Same complaining. I wish they will fix at least the keyboard issues in the 2018 models. Damn Apple.
- spockz 9y ago
  I second you on the keyboard issues but I haven’t had any issues with the trackpad. Actually, for me it is nice that is large and it has always been precise.
- shaklee3 9y ago
  I've seen this sentiment echoed over and over on here. I'm always wondering why people continue to order Macs. It's very rare that I see positive comments about the touchbar. The reason can't be because macos is better, since there are tons of complaints on here about that too. The hardware is definitely not the best anymore. So why are people still buying them?
thegigaraptor 9y ago
I use an external keyboard, but I can empathize with people using it as you normally would. I've experienced the dead spacebar and rarely use the built in keyboard.
fabiant7t 9y ago
The worst part: As a 2016 MBP 13" owner, I cannot rely on my keyboard. The 1 and the n key fail or trigger twice sporadically. So I always carry an USB keyboard (plus adapter of course) in order to be able to really use it when I need to. Password entries with fuzzy functioning keyboards are a mess. It's a really bad experience.
King-Aaron 9y ago
My 2015 MBP's keyboard AND trackpad died about six months into owning the machine. I treat my computers very carefully, and this current one rarely leaves my office. However, Apple's Genius people told me that they wouldn't offer a warranty repair, because I had apparently damaged it. They wanted several hundred dollars to replace parts, of which needed to be ordered in and would have seen me without the machine for about a week, which wasn't really ideal. At a guess, the ribbon to the motherboard had broken. But honestly this is the first computer I've ever owned that I haven't just ripped apart and fixed myself, due to the perceived complexity of the operation to do so. (I don't need the magic smoke escaping from my primary workhorse). So since then, I've just had my mechanical keyboard and mouse plugged in, effectively making my laptop an expensive desktop. Coworkers love mechanical keyboards @ 120words/min
thisisit 9y ago
Discussed twice earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16924975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16924975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476
keypress 9y ago
Many laptop keyboards I have had, have had failed keys, or trouble with crumbs.
ionised 9y ago
Have a company-provided MacBook Pro 2017 here. Aside from being much better to develop in than Windows (iTerm2 is a dream, even compared to CygWin/ConEmu) a few things seem really shitty; 1) The keyboard. It's bad. Really bad. The space key on mine is starting to stick already and its only been a few months. I'm using a cheap Logitech wireless mouse and keyboard with the keys remapped to OS X defaults. 2) Mouse handling. I have no idea what is going on over at Apple but mouse code has been awful for as long as I can remember and the Magic Mouse we were given with these laptops are probably the most unergonomic device I've ever used. They are really terrible. I'm using a wireless Logitech mouse which is much better, but there are crasy OS issues with sensitivity/acceleration that no matter how much configuring and tweakingf I do, never feels right. 3) The last OS X update seems to have caused a LOT of issues for people using certain models of external display adapters. I've basically lost a 1/3 of my screen space because I can only get one external monitor to work at a time since the machine updated to 10.13.4.
ggm 9y ago
Loved my pre Lenovo ThinkPad kB. Replaced because I hammered the etched keycap letters out by hand. Made to replace.
SomeHacker44 9y ago
I sometimes travel with my magic keyboard, which fits exactly over the regular keyboard. Especially helpful when you need the F-keys or ESC, like when using your favorite IDE or VI (and you didn't learn the CapsLock trick).
b212 9y ago
I always considered Apple's keyboard superior but after using Macbooks (pre-2015), Apple Wired Keyboard and Magic Trackpad II for about 3 years I got severe case of RSI, I'm basically unable to write using their keyboards, never tried post 2015 ones in Macbooks though (and they're supposedly even worse?). My symptoms are non-existent while touch typing on cheap keyboard with Cherry MX Red switches. Using Apple feels like hitting concrete with my fingertips. I think they're doing something REALLY wrong here and have been for some time now...
jrq 9y ago
If the Mac books are so bad, why does HN keep buying them? Do you guys just like writing these blog posts about how much it sucks? Didn't we know it would be worse before it ever even hit the store? Why subject yourself to that inconvenience, especially if you're a developer. You got shit to do, don't let your tools be one of your obstacles.

274 points by tomduncalf 9y ago

The new MacBook Pro (2016 to current) is a mess on multiple levels, the entire thing should be scrapped and redesigned. The 2015 model and before remains the best Mac laptop, it's too bad they couldn't just update that to have 32GB RAM and a modern CPU. The keyboard is already great, it already has many ports that are widely used, it has a hardware escape key and function keys, it does not have an annoying touch bar, it's an upgrade in every possible way compared to the newer mess for what a "pro" user actually cares about.

ridgeguy 9y ago
This. I bought a 2015 from the Apple refurb store rather than a new 2016 model for just the reasons you cite.
- amac 9y ago
  Likewise. Don't regret the decision.
rdl 9y ago
I have a loaded late-2013; it feels weird that I can have basically any laptop in the world that I want, but there's such marginal improvement in 2015 vs. 2013, and actual regression from 2015 to 2018, that my mac is almost 5 years old. (I have a 64GB RAM Acer for workstation use, though.)

calebm 9y ago

Literally today, my wife took her Macbook (bought last year) to the Genius bar to get the Enter key fixed - you had to press really hard to get it to take. The repair person just cleaned off the underside of the key. They said they didn't even see any debris. I think there is a real design flaw here.

canuckintime 9y ago

Here's the direct link to Casey Johnston's article: https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-macbook-pros-even-on-sale-in-my-opinion https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-macbook-pr...

starpilot 9y ago

Big /r/apple thread about MBP keyboard issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/83frmc/macbook_pro_2016_3rd_butterfly_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/83frmc/macbook_pro_2... The subreddit is mostly rabid diehard Apple fans, so the amount of discussion there on this is telling. I'm on my 7 year old MacBook Air and I've never had keyboard issues. Looks like I'll be waiting for the 2018 MBP to upgrade.

YetAnotherNick 9y ago
I have a 4 year old macbook air, and if they just upgrade the screen, I will definitely buy one more today.

Osiris 9y ago

I definitely prefer my 2015 MBP over the TouchBar models. The 1 thing I DO like about the new models is universal USB-C charging. I have an Anker USB-A/USB-C charger for my phone and it charges my TouchBar MBP just fine. Beats having to buy an expensive Apple charger to have one at home and one at the office. Other than that, the 2015 has USB-A, HDMI, better keyboard, smaller touchpad, and actual Fn keys.

JamesPeters 9y ago
no way would i give up magsafe for usb-c
- kalleboo 9y ago
  USB-C has been better than MagSafe for me for 3 reasons: 1) Can charge off either side, which has solved most of the cases MagSafe helped me with 2) I can replace just the cable with a cheap third-party one instead of replacing the whole expensive Apple charger when their crap cable falls apart 3) Can extend my battery life off a regular USB power bank

porsager 9y ago

Suffering the same issue on my 3 months old mbp. Never had any keyboard issues on my previous one from 2012.

proee 9y ago

I wonder what actually changed in the new design that causes this problem? The travel is obviously shorter butsomething else is fundamentally causing the problem. Does it have a smaller surface area/pad, different pad material, different coating etc...

lbotos 9y ago
For mine, it's basically any speck of debris that get's lodged, it fails to register the press until that debris moves to another spot. I think the tolerances for "pressed" are too small for "real world" use. Any crumb will "lock up" the key.
- proee 9y ago
  Maybe previous versions had a better "dust keepout" or the contact pad is larger so more resistant to dust.
  - mypalmike 9y ago
    Previous versions were of a different design such that you could shove a small sandwich under the keys and they'd still work.
- pervycreeper 9y ago
  The old trackpads on Apple laptops (pre-force touch) suffered from the same vulnerability, but there didn't seem to be a whole lot of outcry over it.
jacobolus 9y ago
It is a completely different design. The old one was basically a dimpled rubber sheet with some plastic-scissor-stabilized keycaps over the top. The new one is made of little buckling metal parts. They mainly changed designs so that they could make the keyboard thinner – the new one is something like half the depth, or less. Since key travel is reduced, they needed a snappier mechanism to keep enough tactile feel. The feel of the new keyboards is actually impressively okay for something with so little key travel. (Personally I would prefer something with the snap of the new keyboard and at least as much travel as the old keyboard.) The problem is that the little metal pieces get easily slightly bent and stop snapping as much as they should, and also dust gets into the contact mechanism and stops keys from registering.

bengale 9y ago

I’m on my third now and just booking to take it back with more failing keys. Useless compared to the old ones.

zitterbewegung 9y ago

I have had no problems with the current Macbook Pro keyboard. Am I in the minority? I also love the feel of it. I really like the low travel and the Touchbar helps a bunch with my RSI. I don't use the Trackpad at all unless I really need to. I also use Emacs which gives you an idea of how much I use the keyboard.

analogmemory 9y ago
I've only had problems when I eat food and use my laptop. Some crumbs get under a key and then prevents it from traveling. Usually i get some canned air and try to blow it out. I could see it being a bigger problem for other in places that are extra dusty
tomduncalf 9y ago
I had very few problems (the keyboard sometimes stuck but quickly fixed) until my spacebar went suddenly this weekend. Seems to be a case of when, not if, which won’t be good for resale value of this generation. It’s a nice laptop in many ways though.
ngokevin 9y ago
Had mine for almost a year. There was a couple times the shift key had to press really hard, but just hitting it really hard rapidly usually realigned it. The back of my Macbook screen does make intermittent popping sounds though.
dpkonofa 9y ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. I said this in another post somewhere too but I love the new MBP keyboards. I've had my current machine since launch with no issues whatsoever and I'm a web and software dev so I pretty much type all day long. The low travel is amazing and I love both the trackpad and the touch bar. I have no issues with the machine so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :-P
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  returned my mbp 2016 for a number of reasons, and... was mixed on keyboard and trackpad. keyboard - generally liked the feel more than the previous 2015 model, but... it was louder. noticeably louder, even if I tried to type lighter. Definitely created some friction in situations where none existed before. And... MBP2016 trackpad size - just was too large for my liking. I knew of no one demanding a larger trackpad, but know of many people (myself included) who had some issues with the larger trackpad (stray palm issues, etc). The few people I know who liked or wanted a larger trackpad used an external one, which had the bonus (for them) of being movable.

wilwade 9y ago

Lots of trouble with mine as well. Key presses getting doubled or more. Especially on the "b" key. Had to replace the entire key and membrane and clean underneath the glued membrane to get it working again. (was 2 months out of warranty) Also had the left command key just fall off. I know I rest my finger on it, but it shouldn't just fall off. I like the low travel that some complain about, but any keyboard is useless if it doesn't work consistently.

mafro 9y ago
Thanks for commenting. I have the same problem with the "b" on my 18mo MBP. Can you elaborate or link-to some more info on "replace the entire key and membrane"? Apple want to replace the top-case at AUD $650...
- wilwade 9y ago
  I didn't find any how to, so here is a bit of what I did: Failed: compressed air Failed: cleaning under the key. Success: Remove the key (careful, these keys really like to break the bottom u hooks) Remove the butterfly Peel off the glued membrane Cleaned all with 90% alcohol. Took a new membrane (you might be able to use old) and used E6000 glue and a toothpick to glue it back (don't get the contacts). Replaced butterfly and key. Not a good solution, but it worked. I got the key, butterfly, and membrane from replacementlaptopkeys.com. It looked like the contacts were getting coated/corroded and not making good contact? Perhaps heat?
9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
Just FYI, some credit cards extend manufacturer warranties to two years, so may be worth looking into it. Also, which model do you have? Some non-TB 2016-2017 13" MBP are eligible for a free topcase replacement for battery issues.
- wilwade 9y ago
  It's the TB 15". I thought about seeing if I could go into an Apple store and see if I could get them to do it, but I am currently 2 hours away from the closest real one.

protomyth 9y ago

I took mine in and the Apple Genius just tried to clean it to no avail. So, I have a broken "b" key and need to send it in to get it fixed. The "guy who could take the keycaps off wasn't there" despite the pre-questions Apple asks before the appointment scheduling. I'm going to wait a bit. I was one of the people who took their iPhone 6 in and paid full price for the battery (3 times because 3 of the 4 phones we bought had the same problem). I plug it into thunderbolt 3 docks at home and work, so I guess I can hold out until Apple admits it sucks and has an actual fix. I'm under AppleCare but I just don't see the gain in sending it in to get replaced by another keyboard that will break again.

rdxm 9y ago

just laid my 2013 MBP to rest after full 12 oz water spill onto keyboard. Have no doubt it would have lasted much longer were it not for my fumble. Have a new MBP with old-stool keyboard (yes I have and esc key), and it feels good so far, but oh boy will I be pissed if it shits the bed. these things are too expensive to fail that easily. "design" is one thing but, fragiltiy not ok.

beaugunderson 9y ago

I'm on this model and have now had to replace four keys from the QWERTY row (E, R, T, and O). The issue is that the pinchers at the top of the key no longer hold after a while, so the keys fall off. I do like having four E keys, though. (Rather than try to guess which key would fail next I just bought a bunch of E keys). When I took it to an Apple store they told me they couldn't just replace the keys and wanted to do a whole top case, leaving me without my computer for a week. I think they guessed (correctly) that if you have one key come up that the rest will follow. My "I" key is feeling loose and will probably go in the next week or two.

mattbeckman 9y ago
The "S" and "Command" keys kept falling off on my '16 MBP. Replaced them at $12/piece a few days ago from an online store. My issue appears to have been the brackets on the keys themselves perhaps broke or wore down over time due to how impressively fast and heroically accurate I type.
- 9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
  Apple Stores CAN get the keycaps for these models. I think they default to replacing the top case because replacing the keycaps themselves don't always resolve the issue, but if you ask nicely at the apple store they may be willing to give you a few extra key caps if you're willing to install them yourself!
9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
They can technically just replace the key caps, but it's possible it won't resolve the issue, or the top case may suffer more significant damage during the replacement and they don't want you to unexpectedly be without your computer for a week because the key cap repair failed. You could ask them to try it though.

tomduncalf 9y ago

Sorry, this one is kind of a dupe of my other post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476 - it disappeared off the front page so quickly that I thought I’d see if a Daring Fireball link fared better. Apparently this is just some kind of anti-spam for Apple related posts though so moderators please feel free to handle as appropriate!

dang 9y ago
We'll change the URL back to the original article (from https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-keyboard https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-ke...). That seems fairer, as well as in keeping with the site guidelines' call for original sources (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

StephenAmar 9y ago

I absolutely hate that keyboard. It just does not feel right and I can't write more than a few paragraphs without getting very frustrated.

dandare 9y ago
Funny how personal this is - I literally loved the keyboard on the first click. It feels strange when I have to occasionally type on my 2014 MacBook.

bdcravens 9y ago

When I was at RailsConf last week I realized (during a session while I was typing) how loud the keyboard is compared to the last gen

mchannon 9y ago

My experience: Joined a startup, raring to go, and they needed to get me a top-end MacBook Pro (16GB instead of 8GB as I recall). Apple stores in SF refused to stock the top-end, pointing me to their build-to-order options at the store. +5 days minimum. Went with a mail-order house and next day aired in a top-end MacBook Pro laptop (which they had plenty of in every color). Shift key was DOA. Took it in to the Apple store. They had the gall to tell me that since I didn't buy it directly from Apple, they wouldn't (not couldn't, wouldn't) repair it in store, but would send it to their warranty center in Houston (right after Harvey). Got it back fixed, but so many days wasted. Apple gets so many really difficult things right. Simple-seeming things like basic customer service and proactive quality control escape them.

huebnerob 9y ago
Apple doesn't repair anyone's laptop on site, they're all shipped to repair centers. And if they don't stock your configuration in store, there's no way to just hand you a new one either. I'm not saying your experience was any less shitty than it was, but there's nothing else they could have done than what they did.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  If the startup was serious about uptime they’d be part of the partner program and be given a loaner on devices
  - nerpderp83 9y ago
    And since that is the configuration everyone gets, they should have had it in possession already.
  - greedo 9y ago
    And the cost of keeping a spare or two in-house is negligible compared to the lost productivity.
- clamprecht 9y ago

willtim 9y ago

Developers should just buy a ThinkPad and run Linux. A much more dependable machine and a far superior keyboard.

komali2 9y ago
I found an old Thinkpad laying around in the office once and just for shits and giggles decided to give the old Linux thing a try. Threw Ubuntu on it, hated it, tried again with Debian, now I'm a full convert. It's my main dev Machine but I've thrown a Debian VM on my PC at home for when I WFH and dual booted my MacBook I was using before with Debian. It's just... So clean...
delinka 9y ago
Until they have to build and test iOS apps...
- justherefortart 9y ago
  Buy a used Mac Mini. They haven't been updated in like 5.5 years at this point. You can just remote into it. Or just build a hackintosh.
  - kitsunesoba 9y ago
    Neither is a good option for an established company — in that situation your app is likely too large/complex to compile quickly on a mini and the legal grayness associated with hackintoshing makes that a no go. At work I just use an external KB while I’m working at my desk (98% of the time), rendering the macbook’s internal KB almost entirely moot.
    - bananaboy 9y ago
      I agree. The Mac Mini is enticing as a build server because of its price and form factor, but goddamn does it feel slow. I suppose a Mac Pro would be a better choice but they are so much more expensive.
- 9y ago

netman21 9y ago

I write for a living. Jumped on the new MacBok Pro without test driving it. ouldd not type with out making lots of errors. Gave it to my daughter and went with an Airbook. She bought a separate keyboard to use with the Macbook.

nkkollaw 9y ago

I had many problems with my MBP, and it came out so long after the last model, that I completely abandoned Apple after I'd say 8 years. I think there should've been a massive recall. I don't know why people put up with spending a fortune on a laptop and you can't even type on it...

chrischen 9y ago

I've had this problem and when I got an even newer mac I solved with a cheap plastic keyboard cover. It has completely solved the problem, but i'm dumbfounded as to why Apple hasn't simply fixed this by preventing stuff from getting under the keys using a similar method.

mynameishere 9y ago

I had to use a new Macbook pro for a while and didn't for one (willing) second use the keyboard. I've also used Windows and Linux laptops of various configurations and really never used the keyboards. I mean, a laptop keyboard is something you use on the airplane or at a meeting. But for real work? Never. Why do people torture themselves? But the Mac keyboards have been broken for a while. A pointless function key where the control key belongs? No one has explained that one to me yet. So, just keep the stupid thing shut and problem solved.

skeletonjelly 9y ago

> This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history. I feel like this is a bit overstated. What about "Just avoid holding it in that way", or Apple Maps v1, or the Magic Mouse 2 that requires you to stop using it to charge it?

JeremyBanks 9y ago
Having chronically defective keyboards on your computers is much worse than the examples you provided. > Just avoid holding it in that way Pretty minor defect when honestly compared with other options on the market at the time, blown out of proportion by the media. > Apple Maps v1 Forced move for business reasons, recognized by most Apple employees as shitty but inevitable. > Magic Mouse 2 A few minutes of downtime every month is annoying and maybe a mistake, but less critical than a non-functioning non-replaceable keyboard.
- 9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
  Yah seriously, I actually think the magic mouse v2 complaints are ridiculous. Apple Maps v1 WAS bad, but if you didn't like it, you could still use google maps.
- ClassyJacket 9y ago
  The iPhone 4 antenna fault wasn't minor - I had that phone, and it was unusable without a case. If you were holding the phone, you had no signal.
  - tomwilson 9y ago
    I used it for a year with no case and didn’t drop a call once ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - ClassyJacket 9y ago
      We're probably both right. I did exaggerate slightly - what I said was true but not always - if you had a really strong signal the problem might not be noticeable, and I'd expect that the different frequency bands used in different countries made a difference as well. It was certainly a huge frustration for me - the product was not fit for purpose. Easily worked around sure, but still a big deal.

funkydata 9y ago

I'm still using/programming and typing on my 2010 17 inches MacBook Pro. The keyboard still works perfectly whereas my acquaintances that have bought newer models have had the keys falling, failing, discolour and whatnot. That and the ineffable mate screen and screen size. I've changed the memory, the hard drive and the battery to keep going and it's still going, albeit with more fan noise. I'm really afraid/don't want to switch to a new/lesser MacBook Pro.

natvert 9y ago
I'm in exactly the same situation. I just wish it had coffee lake, 32gb of ddr4 and a modern gpu - e.g. an upgrade. Who cares if it's marginally thinner and lighter? With Ubuntu 18.04, Linux is more usable than ever... already runs my desktop and I'll be switching my laptop to Linux as well unless Apple releases something more suitable for power users this summer.
ScottBurson 9y ago
My beloved matte-screen 2011 17-incher failed unrepairably a couple of months ago. I decided to get a new 2017 15-inch model rather than take my chances getting another 17-inch one off of eBay. I had read lots of complaints about the keyboard, so I was prepared to possibly hate it, but it's okay, though not quite as good as the old one. The Touch Bar and larger trackpad seem like gimmicks to me. Well, the Touch Bar has its moments of usefulness, but against that, I hit it accidentally too often, and it's sensitive to the slightest touch. Overall, I'm not unhappy, really. It is faster than my old one was, and much lighter, and has better battery life as long as I'm not doing anything CPU-intensive. Would I have been happier with the older 15-inch model they're still selling? In retrospect, I don't think I would have been any less happy, and I would have saved some money.

mediocrejoker 9y ago

I just this week purchased a 2015 refurb MacBook Pro (the last model year before the keyboard redesign) because of all the compromises one makes when choosing a Mac, an unreliable keyboard is where I draw the line.

thegayngler 9y ago

I guess Ive been lucky. I have avoided any keyboard issues with my rMBP w/TB. I love the keyboard. I wish it worked well for everyone else.

nerpderp83 9y ago

I had a key fail on a less than one year old touchbar MBP, corp had to swap out the whole laptop, with the old one going back to apple for repair. Ridiculous that you can't pop off the keys and fix them. 2015 was the last good year for MBP so far. My 2012 era machines are still running perfectly.

jetblackio 9y ago

In an office of 20+ developers on Macs, over half have had to get their keyboards replaced, and a few more just live with broken keys. This keyboard is truly awful. After 10 years on the Mac, I'll be switching to ThinkPad / Linux / Hackintosh if the next MBP doesn't fix the keyboard issue.

echlebek 9y ago
I spent 8 years writing Linux software on a Mac, with various configurations including SSH, VMWare and Docker development environments. For a while I was happy about this state of affairs, but over time I became increasingly dissatisfied. Late last year I started a new job and essentially demanded that I be allowed to choose my own hardware. I ended up getting a high-spec X1 Carbon and running a Fedora variant on it. It works very, very well. And the keyboard is great. I won't be going back to a mac any time soon.
- narwally 9y ago
  Have you run into any issues with Wayland? I've been running Mint for the past few years, but the lack of fractional DPI scaling is frustrating so I've been considering switching to Fedora.
  - echlebek 9y ago
    I'm using Gnome with Wayland and I haven't had any issues. However, I'm not using fractional scaling either.
foobarian 9y ago
+ And 32GB of RAM.

DamnInteresting 9y ago

Adding my gripe to the cacophony: I upgraded my 2012 MacBook Pro to the 2017 model because I wanted a bigger SSD and one more monitor than the old machine supported. Much of the time it's fine because I have it docked, giving me access to a regular external keyboard. But when I travel or use my treadmill desk, forcing me to use the built-in keyboard...ugh. The key travel distance provides poor tactile feedback, making it feel like I haven't pressed hard enough. And my typo rate goes through the roof. I didn't have those problems with my 2012. And Apple's decision to go with only USB-C is a constant source of inconvenience; I wrongly expected it would pass over time. All this, and no noticeable performance improvement. I still have the 2012, I haven't had time to prep it to sell. I'm seriously considering finding other ways to deal with its limitations so I can ditch this awful 2017 instead. What an expensive mistake.

outworlder 9y ago

They keyboard is bad. It may not be atrocious and I've seen some desktop keyboards with much larger key travel which are even more unpleasant. But good it is not. Which is surprising, because Apple created the best chiclet-style keyboards in the past. The older mabooks and the airs are completely acceptable. The Apple "magic" keyboard is actually pleasant to type on and I bought a third party keyboard which mimics it, although cheaper and 'solar' powered. They made bad compromises. People who actually needed a macbook pro were not asking for a slimmer package. People focusing on size and weight might. Case in point: I bought a Macbook (not pro, but with second gen butterfly switches) for my wife, she doesn't seem to mind, even when typing essays. She is not a touch typist however. I'm typing this in a Macbook Pro at work, but using a bluetooth keyboard, so it is a non issue. At home, same deal, except I'm planning to upgrade to a mechanical keyboard. If I am on the go, then I'll have to use the integrated keyboard. But this is rare for me. If you only use it on the go occasionally, then the keyboard may not be a deal breaker. Still, my Dell Chromebook has a MUCH better keyboard, and it only cost me a couple hundred bucks. This is seriously wrong.

brandall10 9y ago
The OP is not making a case that the keyboard feels bad, he's saying it's questionably fragile design - as a tool, it is unreliable. I can concur, have had sometimes flakey keys going on 1.5 years now. I'm fairly adept at removing the keycaps but have several that trigger double-presses from time to time. It's frustrating.

9935c101ab17a66 9y ago

For anyone suffering from this problem on a 13" MBP non-touchbar with an elapsed warranty: you may be eligible for a free topcase replacement (the part that houses the keyboard) as Apple has identified some models that have defective batteries (and a battery repair == new topcase == new keyboard). Info here and serial number checker here: https://www.apple.com/ca/support/13inch-macbookpro-battery-replacement/ https://www.apple.com/ca/support/13inch-macbookpro-battery-r...

keyle 9y ago

My B and J occasionally stuff up. J sporadically doesn't work and then JJ happens. Sigh. I admit it's a pleasure to type on this keyboard all day long though. I was toroughly disappointed when I bought the $179 'magic keyboard' from Apple (the dark one from the mac pro), and found out the tech is the outdated keyboards, with 2.5x price tag! No single key problem on this keyboard can overshadow its biggest problem: the useless arrow keys.

jimejim 9y ago
I had to have my keyboard replaced twice due to BB repeat issues. Same key both times even though they supposedly replaced the entire top of the keyboard. I still prefer working on an external keyboard, but when it's working fine I don't mind it so much.

chendragon 9y ago

I bought one of these things last year around September. I had the 12 inch 2016 MacBook before it. tl;dr buy a keyboard cover if you have this machine, or just contend with cleaning under the key with alcohol. I've had a fairly good experience with the keyboard on these machines. The 12 inch MacBook had a perfect keyboard. I love the low travel keyboard and they really got it right. But then on the MacBook Pro, it seems like the butterfly mechanism was changed to make it more susceptible to foreign matter causing key malfunctions. Admittedly I eat at the computer, so this is probably my fault, but the 12 inch MacBook didn't do this. Either way, every time oddities like double characters or non-responsive keys happened, I'd carefully pry up the key, use a q-tip soaked in 70% isopropyl alcohol and just clean out the area. You have to get a LITTLE bit of alcohol into the actual switch dome. Basically, you take the q tip with alcohol on it and dab the middle of the little dome madly for a while. Then you stick the key back on and it usually works. I got really unhappy about how often this started happening, especially since some keys' retention clips broke after so many removal cycles, so I just bought a silicone keyboard cover (the MoKo) one off Amazon. It held the keys in place. No more problems. That's what it took. It works great now. And the cover doesn't even make it terrible to type on, due to the low travel.

fouc 9y ago
The downvotes are probably because you can't pop the keys on these newer keyboards anymore, so the alcohol method doesn't apply here. A keyboard cover does seem necessary.
- chendragon 9y ago
  Did they change them after the 2016 touch bar models?
- james-mcelwain 9y ago
  Apple support literally tells you not to use a keyboard cover, which I find kind of amusing given how prone to breakage the new keyboard is without one: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203671 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203671
9y ago

neximo64 9y ago

I moved to a Surface (and absolutely love it!) after going through 2 12" Retina Macbooks and being fed up with having to take the laptop to Apple as they're the only ones able to safely remove the keys and put them back on. It was a nuisance when a laptop designed for portability cant be carried around easily. I found when its vertical/in a backpack it lets dust move around and settle under the keys. Every time I carry it around previously unlocked keys end up 'sticky' & it constantly needs cleaning. With the Surface and WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) its quite refreshing with Windows 10. On occasion I do still use the mac for Xcode but that's about it. Not to mention the alcantara keyboard is an absolute pleasure to use.

jen729w 9y ago

Any Australians here? With our excellent consumer laws I’d love to hear stories of these being taken back. 13” TB owner here with a double-responding \. Haven’t done anything about it because 95% of the time I’m using an external Filco.

plaguuuuuu 9y ago
I've read that we're entitled to free warranty repair/replacement, even outside the stated warranty period, if a product could reasonably be expected to work for x years and breaks before then. Since even cheap laptop keyboards work basically forever it seems likely to be eligible?
- exikyut 9y ago
  Hmm. (Massive) Australia Tax notwithstanding, I wonder if people could buy things "via" Australia in order to be able to send them back and benefit from the country's consumer replacement laws and such. Would be fiddly, but I wonder if it would be worth it?

rjplatte 9y ago

I went from a Thinkpad to the 2017 13 inch MBP w/touch bar. I'm a light typist, and I actually like the keyboard. No issues for 6 months, good actuation force. Of course, sometimes I plug in the Das just to be loud. :-)

batiudrami 9y ago
Come on mate at least read the article - it's about a manufacturing/QA issue; not ergonomics.
- rjplatte 9y ago
  I did. No issues. I like it, it works.

mypalmike 9y ago

The keyboard/trackpad combination of the last decade of Macbooks (Air/Pro) were basically perfect. I like the OS, and I've never found a PC laptop to come remotely close to the sweet ergonomics of those Macbooks. And then I got a 2017 Macbook Pro at my new job. Never mind that the keys are reported to stick (mine haven't yet), it just feels terrible. Virtually zero throw in the switch. And a personal pet peeve, they made the same mistake Microsoft did with their ergo keyboard for 1 sad iteration (before they fixed it in later models) - they changed the arrow keys from the standard upside-down T layout to a diamond layout. Those designers at Apple wanted symmetry so they made it happen. Too bad it kills the ergonomics. But the trackpad is where it really goes downhill. It's physically huge for no good reason. Worse (and the reason I'm seriously looking to see if I can swap it for an older model), it routinely (like 20% of the time) mistakes 1- and 2-finger clicks for each other. I never know which it's going to do. I never experienced this at all with any of my older Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs. Good luck giving a presentation - you're awkwardly fumbling with context menus when you don't want them, etc... audience will think you've never used a computer before. And yes, I've disabled all the stupid gesture stuff because it was even worse before I did so. The "only 2 USB C ports and a headphone jack" is the icing on the cake. I could live with it if it were the only issue, but it just annoys me that I need to bring a docking station with me to stay plugged in while presenting and using any usb peripheral. What's the benefit here - maybe 1/2 mm thinner?

simonebrunozzi 9y ago
100% seconded on everything you said. Same issues with me. Same thinking. Same complaining. I wish they will fix at least the keyboard issues in the 2018 models. Damn Apple.
spockz 9y ago
I second you on the keyboard issues but I haven’t had any issues with the trackpad. Actually, for me it is nice that is large and it has always been precise.
shaklee3 9y ago
I've seen this sentiment echoed over and over on here. I'm always wondering why people continue to order Macs. It's very rare that I see positive comments about the touchbar. The reason can't be because macos is better, since there are tons of complaints on here about that too. The hardware is definitely not the best anymore. So why are people still buying them?

thegigaraptor 9y ago

I use an external keyboard, but I can empathize with people using it as you normally would. I've experienced the dead spacebar and rarely use the built in keyboard.

fabiant7t 9y ago

The worst part: As a 2016 MBP 13" owner, I cannot rely on my keyboard. The 1 and the n key fail or trigger twice sporadically. So I always carry an USB keyboard (plus adapter of course) in order to be able to really use it when I need to. Password entries with fuzzy functioning keyboards are a mess. It's a really bad experience.

King-Aaron 9y ago

My 2015 MBP's keyboard AND trackpad died about six months into owning the machine. I treat my computers very carefully, and this current one rarely leaves my office. However, Apple's Genius people told me that they wouldn't offer a warranty repair, because I had apparently damaged it. They wanted several hundred dollars to replace parts, of which needed to be ordered in and would have seen me without the machine for about a week, which wasn't really ideal. At a guess, the ribbon to the motherboard had broken. But honestly this is the first computer I've ever owned that I haven't just ripped apart and fixed myself, due to the perceived complexity of the operation to do so. (I don't need the magic smoke escaping from my primary workhorse). So since then, I've just had my mechanical keyboard and mouse plugged in, effectively making my laptop an expensive desktop. Coworkers love mechanical keyboards @ 120words/min

thisisit 9y ago

Discussed twice earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16924975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16924975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476

keypress 9y ago

Many laptop keyboards I have had, have had failed keys, or trouble with crumbs.

ionised 9y ago

Have a company-provided MacBook Pro 2017 here. Aside from being much better to develop in than Windows (iTerm2 is a dream, even compared to CygWin/ConEmu) a few things seem really shitty; 1) The keyboard. It's bad. Really bad. The space key on mine is starting to stick already and its only been a few months. I'm using a cheap Logitech wireless mouse and keyboard with the keys remapped to OS X defaults. 2) Mouse handling. I have no idea what is going on over at Apple but mouse code has been awful for as long as I can remember and the Magic Mouse we were given with these laptops are probably the most unergonomic device I've ever used. They are really terrible. I'm using a wireless Logitech mouse which is much better, but there are crasy OS issues with sensitivity/acceleration that no matter how much configuring and tweakingf I do, never feels right. 3) The last OS X update seems to have caused a LOT of issues for people using certain models of external display adapters. I've basically lost a 1/3 of my screen space because I can only get one external monitor to work at a time since the machine updated to 10.13.4.

ggm 9y ago

Loved my pre Lenovo ThinkPad kB. Replaced because I hammered the etched keycap letters out by hand. Made to replace.

SomeHacker44 9y ago

I sometimes travel with my magic keyboard, which fits exactly over the regular keyboard. Especially helpful when you need the F-keys or ESC, like when using your favorite IDE or VI (and you didn't learn the CapsLock trick).

b212 9y ago

I always considered Apple's keyboard superior but after using Macbooks (pre-2015), Apple Wired Keyboard and Magic Trackpad II for about 3 years I got severe case of RSI, I'm basically unable to write using their keyboards, never tried post 2015 ones in Macbooks though (and they're supposedly even worse?). My symptoms are non-existent while touch typing on cheap keyboard with Cherry MX Red switches. Using Apple feels like hitting concrete with my fingertips. I think they're doing something REALLY wrong here and have been for some time now...

jrq 9y ago

If the Mac books are so bad, why does HN keep buying them? Do you guys just like writing these blog posts about how much it sucks? Didn't we know it would be worse before it ever even hit the store? Why subject yourself to that inconvenience, especially if you're a developer. You got shit to do, don't let your tools be one of your obstacles.