7 ms·

A "major breakthrough" in diesel technology significantly reduces emissions

31 points by montrose 8y ago

devhead 8y ago
I Think Volkswagen already figured this out... all they need to do is have a testing mode that applies more filters and turn it off when you're driving around and can pollute freely w/o government telling you what to do with your freedom. problem solved?
shaqbert 8y ago
That article is light on how they tackle the thermal aspects of NOX exhaust. The key challenge to diesel engines is that the combustion is essentially a chemical reaction in vastly different thermal conditions depending on the outside temperature. Every engine has a "sweetspot" thermal range where they are really efficient in burning diesel fuel and washing out NOX from the exhaust fumes. Once you're outside that sweetspot, there is little you can do.
scrooched_moose 8y ago
The article from autoblog is far better: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/25/bosch-diesel-emissions-breakthrough/ https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/25/bosch-diesel-emissions-b... Everything in this article is pure marketing nonsense. >Bosch says its technology uses a combination of advanced fuel injection, a newly developed airflow management system to recirculate exhaust gases, and intelligent temperature management, and it requires no additional new components. It says the technology drops nitrogen oxide emissions to one-tenth of the amount set under the stricter 2020 limits for Europe, even in real-world driving conditions. Bosch says the results hold consistent regardless of driving conditions, weather or how aggressively the vehicle is driven.
- WhompingWindows 8y ago
  > even in real-world driving conditions. Much like post-market drug evaluation in the USA, we will only see the true real-world driving conditions until the product is released en masse and all of its potential use cases are established to release 10% NOx. Until then, I am skeptical, as we have heard such things about cleaner diesel numerous times.
- pmyteh 8y ago
  The Express is now a seriously disreputable paper, and you should be sceptical about anything they print. It's been losing readers and journalists for years, and is now largely full of sensation and puff pieces.
  - jabl 8y ago
    But hey, they publish important world affairs (TM) like https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/950139/jeremy-corbyn-Kate-Middleton-royal-baby-labour-live-update-hospital-Duchess-of-Cambridge https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/950139/jeremy-corbyn-Ka... (Or perhaps I just don't get the extent to which you English people fawn over your royalty, and a lot of you REALLY think it's OUTRAGEOUS that Corbyn took SEVERAL HOURS before congratulating?)
mojomark 8y ago
Reducing NOx is one a fine and noble effort, but there's not much new in this BOSCH corporate press release. However, there are plenty of technologies for reducing diesel engine NOx (1), including Selective Catalytic Reducers (SCR's), Exhaust Gas Recirculaters (EGR), and even injecting water into atomized diesel. Further, reducing NOx is one thing, but you still have other harmful emissions notably SOx and black carbon. So to Dr Volkmar Denner, CEO of Bosch, who says: “There’s a future for diesel. Today, we want to put a stop, once and for all, to the debate about the demise of diesel technology." I respectfully argue that until you can make Diesel as clean as H2 fuel cell, the push to eliminate diesel burning engines will go on. For my money, the best environmentally sustainable 'fuel' is electric via Hydrogen/Air powered fuel cell, in which the hydrogen is generated by electrolysis powered by renewable generators (wind, solar, hydro). We've seen a significant push in the Maritime sector towards conversions of diesel engines to LNG-fueled engines. However, LNG (which may have significant methane slip - a really BAD greenhouse gas - if you're not careful) isn't nearly as clean as H2. 1. http://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html http://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html
- wereHamster 8y ago
  There will always be a market for diesel, at least in the US, because the US don't give a fuck about the environment ;)
  - wil421 8y ago
    Your statement is incorrect in regards to EU vs US diesel emissions. The US has high standards for diesel. The EU is more lax on NOX and diesel emissions. >Our analysis of the respective emissions standards identifies that (broadly) US federal standards are more ambitious for key local air quality pollutants, particularly NOx, than EU standards. A key difference is that the US applies a single set of standards to petrol and diesel vehicles, while the EU allows higher levels of air quality pollutants to diesel vehicles.[1] [1]http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/587331/IPOL_STU(2016)587331_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/58733...
- wallace_f 8y ago
mtgx 8y ago
Does it reduce them as much as EVs do? If not then, it's not enough.
- macintux 8y ago
  Agreed. Pollution management should always be more cost-effective when done at power plants, vs distributed across every vehicle on the road. Let's get there as soon as we can.
billfruit 8y ago
How will this tech alter the standing of diesel against petrol in terms of environment friendliness?
bmcusick 8y ago
/Looks at wind power 1/5th the cost of coal, and still falling /Looks at batteries 1/5th the cost of what they were 10 years ago, and still falling. Just another 1/2 reduction to being cheaper than an ICE engine Yeah.... even if this made diesel cleaner than baby smiles I don't think this is going to save diesel.
- allthenews 8y ago
  Don't be so sure. The rate of advance of new technology slows over time. Look at processing power. We are still a ways away from the convenience of chemical fuel because of energy density and refueling time. But the future is indeed bright, pun intended.
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  You're unlikely to find a bigger proponent of clean and renewable energy than me, but there's a long time before that is going to hit industrial end use where there are certain constraints. The energy density of li-ion is .05ish mj/l, vs 50ish for diesel. EVs are about twice as efficient at converting that energy than gasoline ICEs but that's still a large gap (and diesel is much more efficient, but I don't have that ratio handy) where weight and volume are constraints. Also, refueling time is hard to get down economically (you can trade out a full set of battery cells for new/charged ones, but more vehicle weight/complexity and infra to accommodate that). A more efficient diesel is more meaningful to vehicle trends in Europe than the US, but I think regardless of type of hydrocarbon fuel sources, commuter use cases are closer aligned with EVs and you're right there that this development won't stop the trend there (and non-commercial vehicle usage is an enormous, perhaps largest, source of CO2 pollution).
  - Retric 8y ago
    IC engines with transmissions take up vastly more space and weigh quite a bit more than electric ones do which limits the impact of energy density. Electric has ~4,200 lb to work with before weigh for components before you consider the weight of fuel. https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-620-april-26-2010-class-8-truck-tractor-weight-component https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-620-april-26-2010-... Mack trucks get ~6.5 mpg, so a 350 mile range would take ~5 Tesla battery's ~6,000 lbs. That's a little low, but far from useless just add how battery swaps and it's completely viable. Long term, the move to in road charging means electric trucks will actually save significant weight over IC engines while also having unlimited ranges. http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/18/technology/uk-electric-cars-roads/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/18/technology/uk-electric-cars-...
shaki-dora 8y ago
If you break it through application of force, then replace it with electric, Diesel actually does pretty well. Kidding aside: this is a vacuous press release regurgitated by a tabloid, and doesn’t deserve attention.
watertom 8y ago
If diesel is less refined than gasoline how is it possible that it could produce less* pollution, than gasoline? Diesel has always been an illusion to me, like turning lead into gold.
Theodores 8y ago
The problem is this : http://english.gov.cn/policies/infographics/2015/06/02/content_281475119391820.htm http://english.gov.cn/policies/infographics/2015/06/02/conte... China plan to have 80% of the EV market in next to no time with 80% being of all sales globally. If Chinese EV cars are just a better product than diesel banger style cars then diesel is dead. The switchover would happen more like the death of analog film, economics kicks in at some point and the network of fuel stations goes much like how the network of places you could get film processed has utterly vanished. Film people thought it was all about SLR lenses and film grain, petrol heads are the same except they think about the joys of a manual transmission and the silly fart noises that come out of their exhaust. Much like how nobody would give up the camera on their phone for some 35mm SLR camera it will be the same with electric cars, nobody would give up their electric car to drive exclusively diesel or petrol. That is where that analogy ends, nobody was subsidised to give up their 35mm camera to go digital. The Bosch press release is indicative of attitude problems, although petrol/diesel may be 98% of the market now that can be changed with a fall from being relevant much like what happened with analog film. It takes a generation to come along and the Luddites eventually shut up or die. Although Bosch do amazing 'leccy powered systems for cars the manufacturers have not been quick to start using those components. Maybe this is a bit like a new CPU, e.g. when the Z80 came out in '76 it took a few years before the mass market ZX Spectrum came along to use it. Zilog didn't go ahead and make their own complete system, they just waited a few years for others to do that. Maybe this is where Bosch are now with their EV goodies. It is all going to work out fine, we will all be driving Chinese electric cars.

31 points by montrose 8y ago

I Think Volkswagen already figured this out... all they need to do is have a testing mode that applies more filters and turn it off when you're driving around and can pollute freely w/o government telling you what to do with your freedom. problem solved?

shaqbert 8y ago

That article is light on how they tackle the thermal aspects of NOX exhaust. The key challenge to diesel engines is that the combustion is essentially a chemical reaction in vastly different thermal conditions depending on the outside temperature. Every engine has a "sweetspot" thermal range where they are really efficient in burning diesel fuel and washing out NOX from the exhaust fumes. Once you're outside that sweetspot, there is little you can do.

scrooched_moose 8y ago

The article from autoblog is far better: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/25/bosch-diesel-emissions-breakthrough/ https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/25/bosch-diesel-emissions-b... Everything in this article is pure marketing nonsense. >Bosch says its technology uses a combination of advanced fuel injection, a newly developed airflow management system to recirculate exhaust gases, and intelligent temperature management, and it requires no additional new components. It says the technology drops nitrogen oxide emissions to one-tenth of the amount set under the stricter 2020 limits for Europe, even in real-world driving conditions. Bosch says the results hold consistent regardless of driving conditions, weather or how aggressively the vehicle is driven.

WhompingWindows 8y ago
> even in real-world driving conditions. Much like post-market drug evaluation in the USA, we will only see the true real-world driving conditions until the product is released en masse and all of its potential use cases are established to release 10% NOx. Until then, I am skeptical, as we have heard such things about cleaner diesel numerous times.
pmyteh 8y ago
The Express is now a seriously disreputable paper, and you should be sceptical about anything they print. It's been losing readers and journalists for years, and is now largely full of sensation and puff pieces.
- jabl 8y ago
  But hey, they publish important world affairs (TM) like https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/950139/jeremy-corbyn-Kate-Middleton-royal-baby-labour-live-update-hospital-Duchess-of-Cambridge https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/950139/jeremy-corbyn-Ka... (Or perhaps I just don't get the extent to which you English people fawn over your royalty, and a lot of you REALLY think it's OUTRAGEOUS that Corbyn took SEVERAL HOURS before congratulating?)

mojomark 8y ago

Reducing NOx is one a fine and noble effort, but there's not much new in this BOSCH corporate press release. However, there are plenty of technologies for reducing diesel engine NOx (1), including Selective Catalytic Reducers (SCR's), Exhaust Gas Recirculaters (EGR), and even injecting water into atomized diesel. Further, reducing NOx is one thing, but you still have other harmful emissions notably SOx and black carbon. So to Dr Volkmar Denner, CEO of Bosch, who says: “There’s a future for diesel. Today, we want to put a stop, once and for all, to the debate about the demise of diesel technology." I respectfully argue that until you can make Diesel as clean as H2 fuel cell, the push to eliminate diesel burning engines will go on. For my money, the best environmentally sustainable 'fuel' is electric via Hydrogen/Air powered fuel cell, in which the hydrogen is generated by electrolysis powered by renewable generators (wind, solar, hydro). We've seen a significant push in the Maritime sector towards conversions of diesel engines to LNG-fueled engines. However, LNG (which may have significant methane slip - a really BAD greenhouse gas - if you're not careful) isn't nearly as clean as H2. 1. http://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html http://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html

wereHamster 8y ago
There will always be a market for diesel, at least in the US, because the US don't give a fuck about the environment ;)
- wil421 8y ago
  Your statement is incorrect in regards to EU vs US diesel emissions. The US has high standards for diesel. The EU is more lax on NOX and diesel emissions. >Our analysis of the respective emissions standards identifies that (broadly) US federal standards are more ambitious for key local air quality pollutants, particularly NOx, than EU standards. A key difference is that the US applies a single set of standards to petrol and diesel vehicles, while the EU allows higher levels of air quality pollutants to diesel vehicles.[1] [1]http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/587331/IPOL_STU(2016)587331_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/58733...
wallace_f 8y ago

mtgx 8y ago

Does it reduce them as much as EVs do? If not then, it's not enough.

macintux 8y ago
Agreed. Pollution management should always be more cost-effective when done at power plants, vs distributed across every vehicle on the road. Let's get there as soon as we can.

billfruit 8y ago

How will this tech alter the standing of diesel against petrol in terms of environment friendliness?

bmcusick 8y ago

/Looks at wind power 1/5th the cost of coal, and still falling /Looks at batteries 1/5th the cost of what they were 10 years ago, and still falling. Just another 1/2 reduction to being cheaper than an ICE engine Yeah.... even if this made diesel cleaner than baby smiles I don't think this is going to save diesel.

allthenews 8y ago
Don't be so sure. The rate of advance of new technology slows over time. Look at processing power. We are still a ways away from the convenience of chemical fuel because of energy density and refueling time. But the future is indeed bright, pun intended.
throwaway5752 8y ago
You're unlikely to find a bigger proponent of clean and renewable energy than me, but there's a long time before that is going to hit industrial end use where there are certain constraints. The energy density of li-ion is .05ish mj/l, vs 50ish for diesel. EVs are about twice as efficient at converting that energy than gasoline ICEs but that's still a large gap (and diesel is much more efficient, but I don't have that ratio handy) where weight and volume are constraints. Also, refueling time is hard to get down economically (you can trade out a full set of battery cells for new/charged ones, but more vehicle weight/complexity and infra to accommodate that). A more efficient diesel is more meaningful to vehicle trends in Europe than the US, but I think regardless of type of hydrocarbon fuel sources, commuter use cases are closer aligned with EVs and you're right there that this development won't stop the trend there (and non-commercial vehicle usage is an enormous, perhaps largest, source of CO2 pollution).
- Retric 8y ago
  IC engines with transmissions take up vastly more space and weigh quite a bit more than electric ones do which limits the impact of energy density. Electric has ~4,200 lb to work with before weigh for components before you consider the weight of fuel. https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-620-april-26-2010-class-8-truck-tractor-weight-component https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-620-april-26-2010-... Mack trucks get ~6.5 mpg, so a 350 mile range would take ~5 Tesla battery's ~6,000 lbs. That's a little low, but far from useless just add how battery swaps and it's completely viable. Long term, the move to in road charging means electric trucks will actually save significant weight over IC engines while also having unlimited ranges. http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/18/technology/uk-electric-cars-roads/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/18/technology/uk-electric-cars-...

shaki-dora 8y ago

If you break it through application of force, then replace it with electric, Diesel actually does pretty well. Kidding aside: this is a vacuous press release regurgitated by a tabloid, and doesn’t deserve attention.

watertom 8y ago

If diesel is less refined than gasoline how is it possible that it could produce less* pollution, than gasoline? Diesel has always been an illusion to me, like turning lead into gold.

Theodores 8y ago

The problem is this : http://english.gov.cn/policies/infographics/2015/06/02/content_281475119391820.htm http://english.gov.cn/policies/infographics/2015/06/02/conte... China plan to have 80% of the EV market in next to no time with 80% being of all sales globally. If Chinese EV cars are just a better product than diesel banger style cars then diesel is dead. The switchover would happen more like the death of analog film, economics kicks in at some point and the network of fuel stations goes much like how the network of places you could get film processed has utterly vanished. Film people thought it was all about SLR lenses and film grain, petrol heads are the same except they think about the joys of a manual transmission and the silly fart noises that come out of their exhaust. Much like how nobody would give up the camera on their phone for some 35mm SLR camera it will be the same with electric cars, nobody would give up their electric car to drive exclusively diesel or petrol. That is where that analogy ends, nobody was subsidised to give up their 35mm camera to go digital. The Bosch press release is indicative of attitude problems, although petrol/diesel may be 98% of the market now that can be changed with a fall from being relevant much like what happened with analog film. It takes a generation to come along and the Luddites eventually shut up or die. Although Bosch do amazing 'leccy powered systems for cars the manufacturers have not been quick to start using those components. Maybe this is a bit like a new CPU, e.g. when the Z80 came out in '76 it took a few years before the mass market ZX Spectrum came along to use it. Zilog didn't go ahead and make their own complete system, they just waited a few years for others to do that. Maybe this is where Bosch are now with their EV goodies. It is all going to work out fine, we will all be driving Chinese electric cars.