6 ms·

This is jingoism masquerading as concern for autocracy. If people really cared about things like surveillance or dystopias in any serious way they would be on t

by throw2016 8y ago

This is jingoism masquerading as concern for autocracy. If people really cared about things like surveillance or dystopias in any serious way they would be on the streets about the extensively documented activities of the NSA, rubber stamp courts, secret orders, searching through personal effects at borders and campaigning for Snowden and other whistle blowers to be brought back with honors. But on the ground these laws are renewed without protest, whistle blowers are hounded and demonized with little to no push back and dissenters like Snowden and Assange continue to be stranded for years on end. If no one seems to care enough about these issues in our own countries or our own dissenters how can concern for others countries be authentic. Don't use fabricated concerns to demonize others.

api 8y ago
I think this is "whataboutism." America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China. You see some of the same corruption and autocratic tendencies on both sides of the Pacific but there is a substantial difference in degree and pervasiveness. We are not the best in the world (several EU countries are better) but claiming the USA is equivalent to the PRC just lowers the bar. In China many of the kinds of open anti-state discussions that happen regularly here would get people arrested, not to mention criticism of leadership. Try talking openly about Xi Jinpeng the way lots of Americans talk about Donald Trump (or talked about Barack Obama). I was driving around Irvine, CA the other day and saw an anti-anti-immigration protest with signs comparing Trump to a chimpanzee and Hitler. Do that in China in an affluent section of Beijing. Dare you. Edit: you can also buy Donald Trump Piñatas in Santa Ana, a heavily Hispanic area of LA/OC metro. Try selling a Xi Jinpeng piñata in Beijing.
- throw2016 8y ago
  China and the US have different histories. World affairs are not simplistic binaries of good and bad. Political systems take time to evolve. Western Europe evolved from feudalism over 300 years. China has 1.3 billion people to take care of. This is not a joke. Let them manage and make the transition their way without sanctimonious judgement from others. The USA is effectively two party state with both parties propping up oligarchies and special interests with a media who have long ceased to function as a free and independent press and have reduced themselves to mouthpieces for entrenched interests. The ability to stand on a street and criticize your leader is not the only sign of democracy, the ability to effect change and have a government responsive to peoples needs is. Studies have shown and people can see how the US political establishment are far more responsive to special interests and the rich than the general public. So what is democracy? Perhaps things are not simplistic or black and white, and continuing to affect a moral high ground inspite of alarming deterioration betrays not only a lack of fundamental concern for any articulated values but also its abuse as a mere political tool to beat others with without any context of global history and world affairs.
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- dis-sys 8y ago
  > America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China. individual liberty such as those mass shootings protected by the constitution? if you do believe there is real democracy in your country, maybe you can talk to your democratically elected local representatives and make some _real changes_ in that aspect first? talk is cheap, show me your democracy.
  - freeone3000 8y ago
    A lot of people believe that private ownership of guns is an important individual right - a majority in some areas. This is democracy, even when it produces outcomes I disagree with.
    - dis-sys 8y ago
      yet the same people are jumping up and down lecturing Chinese about how bad is the CCP. I thought it is up to them to judge that.
- darepublic 8y ago
  Pointing out that America is just as bad would be a fair point (not whataboutism) because YC does so much business in America. So criticizing YC for dealing with a government just like America but is not America is not an invalid point. However I agree with others that China's tyranny is on a different level.
nieksand 8y ago
It seems very fashionable to pull out moral equivalency every time China's autocracy and misbehavior is mentioned. Simple experiment: 1. Walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with a sign that says "Trump is a pussy grabber who should be impeached". 2. Go to Tiananmen Square and hold up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre. See how equivalent the governments are then. (As an aside... if I was employed by the Chinese government to spread propaganda in other countries, your comment is roughly what I'd write).
- api 8y ago
  You can make an exact comparison. Not too terribly long ago I saw protests holding up poster sized pictures of prisoner abuse from Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay, which is roughly like holding up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre. Nothing happened to these people in spite of the fact that these pictures are deeply embarrassing to the US government and intensely inflammatory in regions of the world where we don't want to be inflammatory. As much as I give Snowden credit for exposing what can be dangerous autocratic programs, I also must point out that Snowden was not just some random protester. Snowden violated a government secrecy oath that he signed, which is a crime and this fact is printed rather boldly on the contract. Nobody forces you to sign these oaths. You can always say "I'm sorry, I can't sign this, I quit" and walk out and get another job. That's part of what "the rule of law" actually means. In a nation with the rule of law, the law applies objectively to everyone: crooks, politicians, and yes even do-gooders. If the law is wrong you can vote for representatives to change it, but until then what's written is the law. If the law says it's illegal to hop on a pogo stick, then anyone hopping on a pogo stick gets arrested even if they're on their way to feed starving orphans. (Secret courts are another matter, and I think those are un-American and should be shut down. But they are used far less in America than in China, and when they are used and the fact becomes known there's generally quite an uproar.) Also-- personally I find the NSA and CIA less alarming than Facebook and Google. Three-letter agencies operate with at least some democratic oversight and the intel they gather does tend to be used primarily for legitimate intelligence and national security purposes. Unfortunately we do not live on planet fluffy bunny hugs and we need an intelligence service and a military. Facebook and Google operate with zero oversight whatsoever and sell their surveillance services to the highest bidder. Private surveillance operations are completely lawless.

api 8y ago

I think this is "whataboutism." America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China. You see some of the same corruption and autocratic tendencies on both sides of the Pacific but there is a substantial difference in degree and pervasiveness. We are not the best in the world (several EU countries are better) but claiming the USA is equivalent to the PRC just lowers the bar. In China many of the kinds of open anti-state discussions that happen regularly here would get people arrested, not to mention criticism of leadership. Try talking openly about Xi Jinpeng the way lots of Americans talk about Donald Trump (or talked about Barack Obama). I was driving around Irvine, CA the other day and saw an anti-anti-immigration protest with signs comparing Trump to a chimpanzee and Hitler. Do that in China in an affluent section of Beijing. Dare you. Edit: you can also buy Donald Trump Piñatas in Santa Ana, a heavily Hispanic area of LA/OC metro. Try selling a Xi Jinpeng piñata in Beijing.

throw2016 8y ago
China and the US have different histories. World affairs are not simplistic binaries of good and bad. Political systems take time to evolve. Western Europe evolved from feudalism over 300 years. China has 1.3 billion people to take care of. This is not a joke. Let them manage and make the transition their way without sanctimonious judgement from others. The USA is effectively two party state with both parties propping up oligarchies and special interests with a media who have long ceased to function as a free and independent press and have reduced themselves to mouthpieces for entrenched interests. The ability to stand on a street and criticize your leader is not the only sign of democracy, the ability to effect change and have a government responsive to peoples needs is. Studies have shown and people can see how the US political establishment are far more responsive to special interests and the rich than the general public. So what is democracy? Perhaps things are not simplistic or black and white, and continuing to affect a moral high ground inspite of alarming deterioration betrays not only a lack of fundamental concern for any articulated values but also its abuse as a mere political tool to beat others with without any context of global history and world affairs.
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dis-sys 8y ago
> America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China. individual liberty such as those mass shootings protected by the constitution? if you do believe there is real democracy in your country, maybe you can talk to your democratically elected local representatives and make some _real changes_ in that aspect first? talk is cheap, show me your democracy.
- freeone3000 8y ago
  A lot of people believe that private ownership of guns is an important individual right - a majority in some areas. This is democracy, even when it produces outcomes I disagree with.
  - dis-sys 8y ago
    yet the same people are jumping up and down lecturing Chinese about how bad is the CCP. I thought it is up to them to judge that.
darepublic 8y ago
Pointing out that America is just as bad would be a fair point (not whataboutism) because YC does so much business in America. So criticizing YC for dealing with a government just like America but is not America is not an invalid point. However I agree with others that China's tyranny is on a different level.

nieksand 8y ago

It seems very fashionable to pull out moral equivalency every time China's autocracy and misbehavior is mentioned. Simple experiment: 1. Walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with a sign that says "Trump is a pussy grabber who should be impeached". 2. Go to Tiananmen Square and hold up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre. See how equivalent the governments are then. (As an aside... if I was employed by the Chinese government to spread propaganda in other countries, your comment is roughly what I'd write).

api 8y ago
You can make an exact comparison. Not too terribly long ago I saw protests holding up poster sized pictures of prisoner abuse from Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay, which is roughly like holding up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre. Nothing happened to these people in spite of the fact that these pictures are deeply embarrassing to the US government and intensely inflammatory in regions of the world where we don't want to be inflammatory. As much as I give Snowden credit for exposing what can be dangerous autocratic programs, I also must point out that Snowden was not just some random protester. Snowden violated a government secrecy oath that he signed, which is a crime and this fact is printed rather boldly on the contract. Nobody forces you to sign these oaths. You can always say "I'm sorry, I can't sign this, I quit" and walk out and get another job. That's part of what "the rule of law" actually means. In a nation with the rule of law, the law applies objectively to everyone: crooks, politicians, and yes even do-gooders. If the law is wrong you can vote for representatives to change it, but until then what's written is the law. If the law says it's illegal to hop on a pogo stick, then anyone hopping on a pogo stick gets arrested even if they're on their way to feed starving orphans. (Secret courts are another matter, and I think those are un-American and should be shut down. But they are used far less in America than in China, and when they are used and the fact becomes known there's generally quite an uproar.) Also-- personally I find the NSA and CIA less alarming than Facebook and Google. Three-letter agencies operate with at least some democratic oversight and the intel they gather does tend to be used primarily for legitimate intelligence and national security purposes. Unfortunately we do not live on planet fluffy bunny hugs and we need an intelligence service and a military. Facebook and Google operate with zero oversight whatsoever and sell their surveillance services to the highest bidder. Private surveillance operations are completely lawless.