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> Is the barrier for you species difference? I haven't met a person for which this isn't true. From my conversations with other people, the hierarchy of care
by nordsieck 9y ago
> Is the barrier for you species difference?
I haven't met a person for which this isn't true.
From my conversations with other people, the hierarchy of care is roughly:
Humans > large mammals > small mammals / cephlopods > birds / large reptiles > small reptiles / fish > large insects / trees > small insects / spiders / plants > yeast / fungi / bacteria
- komali2 9y agoIf this is true then why does non consenting human experimentation happen ever? In any case, hierarchies like that are almost totally arbitrary, like anything about a culture. I'm just poking the bear here and seeing what comes out. Let's play with this more.
- drdeca 9y agoBecause expiraments on humans can provide information that expiraments on other animals can't, and the information in question is information that we care about. In addition, humans can consent to things.
- pbhjpbhj 9y agoConsent is interesting, usually poor people will get paid for it, in which case it's a sort of coerced consent.
- Tomminn 9y agoYup, totally arbitrary. That's why I prefer the poetry yeast writes about the beauty of the universe and the pain of existence to that written by humans.
- komali2 9y agoIs your point that only humans have culture? There is evidence of culture and learned behaviors in animals as simple as birds.
- Tomminn 9y agoMy point is that the hierarchy is ordered by increasingly sophisticated internal conscious experience. This is the least arbitrary thing ever when it comes to concern around suffering.
- komali2 9y agoMy argument was more that there is no association between a theoretical "hierarchy of care" and actual, real brain sophistication. If there were, people would for example eat cats before they ate pigs.
- Tomminn 9y agoI didn't realize that was your argument. I'd agree with that.
- pbhjpbhj 9y agoCats don't have much meat, I imagine larger mammals are farmed because they're large. But inhibition to eating pigs would be larger than that for eating cats, I'd agree on that.
- Tomminn 9y agoSorry edit: I disagree strongly that there is no association, it's an 80-20 thing. 80% can be explained by real brain sophistication, with 20% explained by cultural baggage.
- firethief 9y ago"As simple as"--are you placing birds in a hierarchy?
- komali2 9y agoSure, a hierarchy of complexity. You don't think such a thing would exist? Why are you trying to seek out a hypocrisy angle in my arguments? I feel like that's a somewhat boring way to go about this.
- nordsieck 9y ago> why does human experimentation happen ever? There are a lot of drugs that pass animal testing only to fail human testing. Ethics review boards are a pretty good, but imperfect way to moderate the harm of human experimentation. > hierarchies like that are almost totally arbitrary This hierarchy corresponds roughly to some mix of genetic, morphological and behavioral similarity. It's obviously not arbitrary. > like anything about a culture lol
- komali2 9y agoYou seem to be amused by my assertion that culture traits like this are arbitrary. I'm guessing you also believe in universal morality. Anthropologists that argue against universal morality are used to being derised and mocked, but I don't mind being a punching bag - please, feel free to present your evidence that the hierarchy of care is the result of perceived similarities, and how this must apply rigidly and universally across all cultures. That, for example, there was never a culture in all of human history that placed a less-human-appearing animal's value over a more-human-appearing animal... or even over other humans.
- molloy 9y agoFor me personally it's: Humans > tool-and-reason-using animals (certain primates, corvids, cephalopods, cetaceans, etc.) > other animals in descending order of perceived capacity to suffer > bivalves > non-animal kingdoms.
- nicolas_t 9y agoSame here, it's why I cannot justify getting offended by people eating dogs when I eat pigs which are about as smart. That classification also made me stop eating octopus even though it's one of my favorite dish.
- cfadvan 9y agoDoesn’t it make more sense to be upset at people eating pigs and dogs? Same here about octopus too, although it was never my favorite, I won’t touch the stuff. Pigs, dogs, cats... I try to avoid eating anything that can out-think a toddler.
- komali2 9y agoThis is more the line I was going down - I think in the future it will be difficult to justify, morally, the killing of any mammal for its meats. Especially when grown meat alternatives become affordable. I say this as a staunch carnivore. I just don't see how it's morally sustainable. What if we develop methods of chemically induced greater intelligence, and a Peta activist goes to a farm and injects it into all the cows? Shit like that are what I think will eventually drive the world to vegetarianism. That or species extinction...
- molloy 9y agoWhat makes you a staunch carnivore, if I may ask?
- komali2 9y ago1. I love the taste of meat 2. Cooking is my primary hobby. I am fascinated by the history and culture of it, much of which is based around meat 3. I lift a lot and can't hit my macros at reasonable calorie to protein to dollar ratio without chicken and eggs 4. I have worked on a farm and as a result, as long as I'm buying properly sourced meat (pasture raised, not factory shit) I don't feel much guilt as I have confidence the animal had a comfortable life by the normal metrics of animal life, and was killed quickly and with little pain.