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This project is hugely problematic, both because there are some pretty fundamental flaws in how he characterizes plastic pollution and the lack of any responses

by sselbe 9y ago

This project is hugely problematic, both because there are some pretty fundamental flaws in how he characterizes plastic pollution and the lack of any responses from the Ocean Cleanup about the criticism from just about every ocean plastics expert out there. None of the major plastics pollution nonprofits endorse this work, not out of jealousy but frustration with an idea getting so much attention and funding purely because some charismatic kid has talked about it. Assuming that it is engineered to survive storms (which is DEFINITELY not an easy feat given the design), anything like this will have an impact on marine life. Anything that floats like this will act like a FAD (fish aggregating device) and attract animals, and should be designed in a way to minimize impact or incidental catch. It seems like his discussion about what that includes has been pretty vague to date. This includes the small things in the ocean that will certainly be harmed by this device. The dispersion of plastics in the ocean seems to follow a different profile than this device addresses. Contrary to what people imagine when they think of the “Pacific Garbage Patch,” the bulk of plastic in the oceans is not large pieces that are floating. Pretty much all plastic in the ocean has broken down into small pieces and sits through the entire water column following the mixed layer phenomenon. There’s been a lot of great research on that, including microplastics which are now found in practically every water body on Earth. Anyways, there are much smarter people than me who outlined the flaws. You can read More here: http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/07/the-ocean-cleanup-part-1-alternatives-to-reduce-ocean-plastic/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/07/the-ocean-cleanup-part-1-... http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/07/the-ocean-cleanup-part-2-technical-review-of-the-feasibility-study/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/07/the-ocean-cleanup-part-2-... http://deepseanews.com/2013/03/the-ocean-cleanup-the-newest-of-the-new-plans-to-remove-marine-plastic/ http://deepseanews.com/2013/03/the-ocean-cleanup-the-newest-... http://climateadaptation.tumblr.com/post/46515698066/this-invention-keeps-popping-up-in-my-daily http://climateadaptation.tumblr.com/post/46515698066/this-in... http://inhabitat.com/the-fallacy-of-cleaning-the-gyres-of-plastic-with-a-floating-ocean-cleanup-array/ http://inhabitat.com/the-fallacy-of-cleaning-the-gyres-of-pl...

throwaway299792 9y ago
Totally agree. As someone familiar with their scale model tests, I can attest to them knowing very little about what they are doing. I will/cannot not go into too much detail, but (1) not wanting to listen to any wave experts and (2) them expecting a failing(!) scale model test to magically work on full scale are laughable and major red flags. The only reason the project has gotten so much funding is because it allows companies to buy an indulgence of sorts and clear their conscience. I am 100% certain it will not work, and will actually pollute the ocean more, for the "machine" itself will turn to waste.
ummonk 9y ago
First solar roadways, now this... I'm starting to get rather annoyed with junk science proposals hoovering up funding and attention that could be going to more scientifically sound endeavors.
- sselbe 9y ago
  Solar roadways is a great parallel to this. Ocean Cleanup has raised $40 million. Just think of the good work you can do with that. Part of the flaws of this is Boyan’s unwillingness to listen to any experts on the matter. They’ve tried to help, and have largely been ignored as baseless skeptics (which is the furthest thing from the truth). Ocean scientists want to help solve the problems that the ocean faces and would definitely support ideas that do this. Unfortunately this one doesn’t.
trynewideas 9y ago
I love that Fast Company is the linked article. FC ran the work of actual marine plastics researcher eight years ago: https://www.fastcompany.com/1680455/miriam-goldstein-north-pacific-garbage-patch https://www.fastcompany.com/1680455/miriam-goldstein-north-p... She's had a running criticism of Slat's project since it first got press, publicly on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/413093769714483200 https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/413093769714483200 https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/490196011219185664 https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/490196011219185664 And thanks for linking to DSN, which also ran this debunk on Slat's scale test: http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-and-the-ocean-cleanup-do-last-summer/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-a...
specialist 9y ago
FWIW, I think the big dust pan idea is kinda silly. I keep expecting someone to come up with baleen whale inspired barges. Big gulping mouth that is somehow wave actuated. Wave action for propulsion. Clever filters that pull out just the plastics. Cook the debris in place with sunshine and bacteria. As stupid simple as possible. Huge fleet. Set them loose and wait. If this was sci-fi, the barges could reproduce and evolve, of course.
airstrike 9y ago
B-b-b-ut he dropped out of college to start a company to make the world better, so it must be good!
spraak 9y ago
In one of their presentations they say that they trawled through the "patch" with about 33 boats and found that a large majority by volume actually is large objects.
- imtringued 9y ago
  Here is a nice summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EyaTqezSzs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EyaTqezSzs Key highlights: * Mega expedition with 50 boats * Aerial survey * Hand counted 1.2m samples under a microscope * 92% of mass is floating on the surface Based on old evidence the project was clearly a waste of resources but of course the irony is that the lack of resources spent on researching the garbage patch lead to insufficient information about how feasable the project is in reality.
taysic 9y ago
Your links say it well - being a naysayer is kinda pointless. Realistically the first iteration will never be perfect. You got to start somewhere and then keep iterating until you understand your challenges better and come up with better solutions. Boyan Slat seems to understand this very well. Also it might be worth evaluating and comparing to how many things are harmed in the ocean in the absence of anyone trying such ambitious ideas.
pasta 9y ago
Those articles you post are from 2013 and 2014. This is when the Ocean Cleanup Project started. The project did a lot of research in the years that followed. And all there answers can be found in the FAQ section. So I don't think your post is valid (anymore).
offbytwo 9y ago
So your argument is essentially: "cleaning the ocean is hard, so we shouldn't attempt it"

by sselbe 9y ago

throwaway299792 9y ago

Totally agree. As someone familiar with their scale model tests, I can attest to them knowing very little about what they are doing. I will/cannot not go into too much detail, but (1) not wanting to listen to any wave experts and (2) them expecting a failing(!) scale model test to magically work on full scale are laughable and major red flags. The only reason the project has gotten so much funding is because it allows companies to buy an indulgence of sorts and clear their conscience. I am 100% certain it will not work, and will actually pollute the ocean more, for the "machine" itself will turn to waste.

ummonk 9y ago

First solar roadways, now this... I'm starting to get rather annoyed with junk science proposals hoovering up funding and attention that could be going to more scientifically sound endeavors.

sselbe 9y ago
Solar roadways is a great parallel to this. Ocean Cleanup has raised $40 million. Just think of the good work you can do with that. Part of the flaws of this is Boyan’s unwillingness to listen to any experts on the matter. They’ve tried to help, and have largely been ignored as baseless skeptics (which is the furthest thing from the truth). Ocean scientists want to help solve the problems that the ocean faces and would definitely support ideas that do this. Unfortunately this one doesn’t.

trynewideas 9y ago

I love that Fast Company is the linked article. FC ran the work of actual marine plastics researcher eight years ago: https://www.fastcompany.com/1680455/miriam-goldstein-north-pacific-garbage-patch https://www.fastcompany.com/1680455/miriam-goldstein-north-p... She's had a running criticism of Slat's project since it first got press, publicly on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/413093769714483200 https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/413093769714483200 https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/490196011219185664 https://twitter.com/MiriamGoldste/status/490196011219185664 And thanks for linking to DSN, which also ran this debunk on Slat's scale test: http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-and-the-ocean-cleanup-do-last-summer/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-a...

specialist 9y ago

FWIW, I think the big dust pan idea is kinda silly. I keep expecting someone to come up with baleen whale inspired barges. Big gulping mouth that is somehow wave actuated. Wave action for propulsion. Clever filters that pull out just the plastics. Cook the debris in place with sunshine and bacteria. As stupid simple as possible. Huge fleet. Set them loose and wait. If this was sci-fi, the barges could reproduce and evolve, of course.

airstrike 9y ago

B-b-b-ut he dropped out of college to start a company to make the world better, so it must be good!

spraak 9y ago

In one of their presentations they say that they trawled through the "patch" with about 33 boats and found that a large majority by volume actually is large objects.

imtringued 9y ago
Here is a nice summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EyaTqezSzs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EyaTqezSzs Key highlights: * Mega expedition with 50 boats * Aerial survey * Hand counted 1.2m samples under a microscope * 92% of mass is floating on the surface Based on old evidence the project was clearly a waste of resources but of course the irony is that the lack of resources spent on researching the garbage patch lead to insufficient information about how feasable the project is in reality.

taysic 9y ago

Your links say it well - being a naysayer is kinda pointless. Realistically the first iteration will never be perfect. You got to start somewhere and then keep iterating until you understand your challenges better and come up with better solutions. Boyan Slat seems to understand this very well. Also it might be worth evaluating and comparing to how many things are harmed in the ocean in the absence of anyone trying such ambitious ideas.

pasta 9y ago

Those articles you post are from 2013 and 2014. This is when the Ocean Cleanup Project started. The project did a lot of research in the years that followed. And all there answers can be found in the FAQ section. So I don't think your post is valid (anymore).

offbytwo 9y ago

So your argument is essentially: "cleaning the ocean is hard, so we shouldn't attempt it"