8 ms·

I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt, so I have taken it myself to learn on

I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt, so I have taken it myself to learn online via open courses.

glogla 8y ago
Not all of West has it this way. US and UK yes, but rest of EU mostly has free college in same or higher quality.
- joshsyn 8y ago
  US, UK, Australia, not sure about south africa. I will be eyeing on EU.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Scotland is nowhere near as bad as the rest of the UK although you have to have put up with their dreary weather for three years before attending.
  - adam-a 8y ago
    EU residents can also study in Scotland for free. It is only England, Wales and NI who have to pay the full fees.
    - Wildgoose 8y ago
      No, it is only the English that have to pay the full fees, students from Wales and NI pay a lower rate.
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago
    Unless you live in the EU - it's free then (after 2020... well...). For UK students you need to be domiciled in Scotland to qualify, which is lucky, as providing free university to a country with a population of 60 million from the Scottish (population 5 million) budget would be unsustainable.
  - arethuza 8y ago
    Nitpick: Scots undergraduate degrees are typically 4 years rather than 3 as in the rest of the UK.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      If you have good A-levels then it certainly used to be the case that you can skip first year.
      - arethuza 8y ago
        Possibly, doesn't apply to anyone coming from Scotland as we tend to not do A-levels (some of the more expensive private schools do then rather than Scottish Highers and Advanced Highers).
- jimmy1 8y ago
  With risk of being deemed survivorship bias, I went to a community college for the first 2 years in the US at a whopping $698 a semester, got my associates in science which transferred to a prominent a state college and counted for my Gen Ed requirements in my Computer Science degree so I was able to jump straight into CS courses. With tuition assistance (everyone qualifies at a certain level, unless you are uber rich), I ended up with around 10k in debt (mostly because I took some out to live a little more comfortably in school). That was about 5 years ago and that debt is essentially paid off. My wife did almost the exact same thing. She has a small amount of debt, (15k) but that's mostly because she has 3 degrees, including a masters. We've both been happily employed since. Long story short: I think the "American University Debt Crisis" is largely overstated. I relate it to the housing crisis in 2008. Yes it was shitty for mortgage lenders to be giving out those loans to those people, but at the same time, you as an individual have to stop and think at some point and say "OK, I am a strawberry farmer that makes 30k a year, what business do I have buying a 500k house?" You as an individual need to use some critical thinking and say, "OK my family / I make only X amount a year, what businesses do I have racking up 40-50k in student debt every year? Are there alternatives?" The answer to the question "are there quality alternatives to simply racking up debt I will never be able to pay back and still be able to get an education?" is yes. I should edit this to say: the debt crisis is real now because a large majority of these students did in fact take the loans and now have the debt. What I mean, however, is this "fact" that you must go into lifelong crippling debt to get a quality education is overstated.
  - TheForumTroll 8y ago
    No matter how cheap you got your degree (which doens't seem to include any university?), who do you think gets the most knowledge out of it: A: that works 25 hours+ while studying at a school chosen because of its price or B: that study at a school that fits what is best for B and gets money from the school? Now you might believe the system A uses is fine, but which country do you think will be ahead in 10 or even 50 years?
    - jimmy1 8y ago
      There are so many variables here I couldn't even begin to answer but I will take a stab and say A because that student is most likely fiscally responsible and proven they can juggle multiple responsibilities and still make progress towards a goal. These typically tend to be very productive members of society. In B's case, this also may be true, but I am less prone to have the same expectations since your university schooling offers you entirely what you decide to get out of it: meaning you can slack off and only study for the test, and forget it as soon as you step outside in the real world, or you can remember it all and excel. Now I am not saying with A you can't also slack off in school and not get anything, but on average I would say a working student values their education more than a non-working student since they have a larger motivator and a early reality check of what life is really like.
- nisa 8y ago
  In Germany quality of education is going downhill fast - that is not only my personal impression but also what friends in other Unis tell me. The universities grow huge marketing and managing administrations while teaching is lacking even often money to pay some student to check the sheets and research is solely dependend on 3rd party funding. Even if you have access and funding for equipment there are no funds to pay someone for maintenance or making good use of the equipment. Some PhD that were not quick enough to deny any involvement are doing the job or clueless student assistants that are left alone. Plagiarism is also rampant and most students avoid any extra work/activities at all costs. Suing for better grades is also not uncommon. Research often turns into pushing out publications and papers at all costs and is more like an art to defend your own existence than acknowledging or understanding the problem domain. Luckily not everywhere but I've heard that more than once and confirm it for my uni.
remedan 8y ago
Why? I live in the west (continental Europe) and you can attend a good university for free here. The state pays your tuition.
- ionised 8y ago
  Not in the UK anymore unfortunately.
  - arethuza 8y ago
    Apart from Scotland!
- patricius 8y ago
  I know this is a trite comment, but no, you still pay through taxes. The state has no money. I too live in a country with tax-financed universities.
  - TheForumTroll 8y ago
    There is quite a big difference between students alone paying 100 % (or more like 500 % in the US) and every citizen in a country sharing the price between them. Not only is it cheaper overall per capita but you also get much better tuition when schools don't go where they make the most money but concentrate on teaching and research. Look at how research in the US is today. Research what might make big money and when you get the chance run with it and start a company. That is a surefire way of running the school into the ground - or at least the quality of it.
    - patricius 8y ago
      Of course there is a difference. You let others pay for your choices (studying). But it doesn't make it free.
      - c12 8y ago
        Things like state funded healthcare are free at the point of care and education is free at the point of consumption. This doesn't mean they don't have costs associated with them as a whole but that for those actually using them they appear to have no personal cost.
plop_ 8y ago
Exorbitant fees are more typical of british and american universities, but not of the whole western university system.
kome 8y ago
> I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt That's not the west, that's America. Europe is mostly safe, beside the UK, where they decided to go the American way... I always got money by going at the university, never the contrary.
mitchus 8y ago
I presume that the "open courses" that you are consuming online are produced by the western university system?
- joshsyn 8y ago
  I meant to imply most american and British based universities and colleges, not EU.

I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt, so I have taken it myself to learn online via open courses.

glogla 8y ago

Not all of West has it this way. US and UK yes, but rest of EU mostly has free college in same or higher quality.

joshsyn 8y ago
US, UK, Australia, not sure about south africa. I will be eyeing on EU.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Scotland is nowhere near as bad as the rest of the UK although you have to have put up with their dreary weather for three years before attending.
- adam-a 8y ago
  EU residents can also study in Scotland for free. It is only England, Wales and NI who have to pay the full fees.
  - Wildgoose 8y ago
    No, it is only the English that have to pay the full fees, students from Wales and NI pay a lower rate.
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  Unless you live in the EU - it's free then (after 2020... well...). For UK students you need to be domiciled in Scotland to qualify, which is lucky, as providing free university to a country with a population of 60 million from the Scottish (population 5 million) budget would be unsustainable.
- arethuza 8y ago
  Nitpick: Scots undergraduate degrees are typically 4 years rather than 3 as in the rest of the UK.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    If you have good A-levels then it certainly used to be the case that you can skip first year.
    - arethuza 8y ago
      Possibly, doesn't apply to anyone coming from Scotland as we tend to not do A-levels (some of the more expensive private schools do then rather than Scottish Highers and Advanced Highers).
jimmy1 8y ago
With risk of being deemed survivorship bias, I went to a community college for the first 2 years in the US at a whopping $698 a semester, got my associates in science which transferred to a prominent a state college and counted for my Gen Ed requirements in my Computer Science degree so I was able to jump straight into CS courses. With tuition assistance (everyone qualifies at a certain level, unless you are uber rich), I ended up with around 10k in debt (mostly because I took some out to live a little more comfortably in school). That was about 5 years ago and that debt is essentially paid off. My wife did almost the exact same thing. She has a small amount of debt, (15k) but that's mostly because she has 3 degrees, including a masters. We've both been happily employed since. Long story short: I think the "American University Debt Crisis" is largely overstated. I relate it to the housing crisis in 2008. Yes it was shitty for mortgage lenders to be giving out those loans to those people, but at the same time, you as an individual have to stop and think at some point and say "OK, I am a strawberry farmer that makes 30k a year, what business do I have buying a 500k house?" You as an individual need to use some critical thinking and say, "OK my family / I make only X amount a year, what businesses do I have racking up 40-50k in student debt every year? Are there alternatives?" The answer to the question "are there quality alternatives to simply racking up debt I will never be able to pay back and still be able to get an education?" is yes. I should edit this to say: the debt crisis is real now because a large majority of these students did in fact take the loans and now have the debt. What I mean, however, is this "fact" that you must go into lifelong crippling debt to get a quality education is overstated.
- TheForumTroll 8y ago
  No matter how cheap you got your degree (which doens't seem to include any university?), who do you think gets the most knowledge out of it: A: that works 25 hours+ while studying at a school chosen because of its price or B: that study at a school that fits what is best for B and gets money from the school? Now you might believe the system A uses is fine, but which country do you think will be ahead in 10 or even 50 years?
  - jimmy1 8y ago
    There are so many variables here I couldn't even begin to answer but I will take a stab and say A because that student is most likely fiscally responsible and proven they can juggle multiple responsibilities and still make progress towards a goal. These typically tend to be very productive members of society. In B's case, this also may be true, but I am less prone to have the same expectations since your university schooling offers you entirely what you decide to get out of it: meaning you can slack off and only study for the test, and forget it as soon as you step outside in the real world, or you can remember it all and excel. Now I am not saying with A you can't also slack off in school and not get anything, but on average I would say a working student values their education more than a non-working student since they have a larger motivator and a early reality check of what life is really like.
nisa 8y ago
In Germany quality of education is going downhill fast - that is not only my personal impression but also what friends in other Unis tell me. The universities grow huge marketing and managing administrations while teaching is lacking even often money to pay some student to check the sheets and research is solely dependend on 3rd party funding. Even if you have access and funding for equipment there are no funds to pay someone for maintenance or making good use of the equipment. Some PhD that were not quick enough to deny any involvement are doing the job or clueless student assistants that are left alone. Plagiarism is also rampant and most students avoid any extra work/activities at all costs. Suing for better grades is also not uncommon. Research often turns into pushing out publications and papers at all costs and is more like an art to defend your own existence than acknowledging or understanding the problem domain. Luckily not everywhere but I've heard that more than once and confirm it for my uni.

remedan 8y ago

Why? I live in the west (continental Europe) and you can attend a good university for free here. The state pays your tuition.

ionised 8y ago
Not in the UK anymore unfortunately.
- arethuza 8y ago
  Apart from Scotland!
patricius 8y ago
I know this is a trite comment, but no, you still pay through taxes. The state has no money. I too live in a country with tax-financed universities.
- TheForumTroll 8y ago
  There is quite a big difference between students alone paying 100 % (or more like 500 % in the US) and every citizen in a country sharing the price between them. Not only is it cheaper overall per capita but you also get much better tuition when schools don't go where they make the most money but concentrate on teaching and research. Look at how research in the US is today. Research what might make big money and when you get the chance run with it and start a company. That is a surefire way of running the school into the ground - or at least the quality of it.
  - patricius 8y ago
    Of course there is a difference. You let others pay for your choices (studying). But it doesn't make it free.
    - c12 8y ago
      Things like state funded healthcare are free at the point of care and education is free at the point of consumption. This doesn't mean they don't have costs associated with them as a whole but that for those actually using them they appear to have no personal cost.

plop_ 8y ago

Exorbitant fees are more typical of british and american universities, but not of the whole western university system.

kome 8y ago

> I have lost confidence in the western university system. Too much high exorbitant fees, with no future prospects but debt That's not the west, that's America. Europe is mostly safe, beside the UK, where they decided to go the American way... I always got money by going at the university, never the contrary.

mitchus 8y ago

I presume that the "open courses" that you are consuming online are produced by the western university system?

joshsyn 8y ago
I meant to imply most american and British based universities and colleges, not EU.