5 ms·

I have always pondered this question so I quickly went to the link and was confronted with a really weak and half-baked argument. First, this is not a question

by Jun8 16y ago

I have always pondered this question so I quickly went to the link and was confronted with a really weak and half-baked argument. First, this is not a question of American audiences; I'm not American and love anime but they don't look Japanese to me either. "The Other has to be marked. If there are no stereotyped markings of otherness, then white is assumed." This may be true but it has very little to do with anime. As others have pointed out (i) anime artists have been influenced by their Western counterparts (anime is not a traditional Japanese art form, you know) and (ii) commercial considerations play a role, i.e. very Japanese looking characters would have less appeal to a large audience. But forget about that and just think about the argument to see how faulty it is: In its essence it is trying to show how lop-sided white Westerners see the world but it itself is also very prejudiced. Do you think when a Chinese person looks at an anime character they think it's Chinese (because "otherness" isn't marked)? This sort of thinking is typical of a lot of mumbo-jumbo that comes out of English departments under literary criticism. If Japanese didn't have to mark "otherness", why are the characters in traditional Japanese paintings look very Japanese (slanted eyes, hairdo, etc.). In the end the article states: "Some Americans, even some scholars, will argue against this view of anime. They want to think the Japanese worship America or worship whiteness and use anime to prove it. But they seem to be driven more by their own racism and nationalism than anything else." This is another common tactic: when someone raises a problematic viewpoint, label them as racist, misogynistic, or worse (e.g. see the Summers episode). How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western? Why is baseball so popular in Japan? Japan has had a long love/hate relationship with the US (and Westerners in general). I'm not saying some form of American idealization is at the heart of anime styles but I think it has definitely influenced it. EDIT: For similar over the top ideas about race and culture and to see how politicized the debate can be, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controver...

edanm 16y ago
Honestly, Japanese anime characters do not look western to me. They look Japanese, but that's probably because I'm used to seeing them in anime! I don't see how classic Japanese drawings have anything to do with it; different styles of drawing grew up in different cultures, I expect, and not just because of the different look of people from those culture. As for the baseball question, I don't think it makes much sense. Soccer is popular almost everywhere in the world except in the United States, so it's obviously not a Western thing, and there are other sports highly popular in some countries and not in others. It has more to do with history than with any fascination. For example, cricket and snooker are extremely popular in countries that used to be parts of Great Britain, but that's just history, not any "worship" of England.
- brc 16y ago
  Small correction : Great Britain refers to the group of islands also referred to as the British Isles. Great Britain is a geographical reference. The full name of the UK is 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Hence 'British' is a generic term for anyone from the British Isles, although it tends to be used to describe English people, though technically Welsh and Scottish people are also British. This is similar how 'American' refers to citizens of the United States, even though technically anyone from Alaska to Argentina is American. So you can't be a former part of Great Britain unless there is some major tectonic activity! The correct term would be 'former British Colonies', or perhaps, beter still, 'former members of the British Empire' or even 'Commonwealth nations'. Even these have problems because most of the Northeast USA was once part of the British Empire. And, curiously, Canadians never really went for Cricket despite still being in the commonwealth. I guess it's difficult when the fields are under snow for half the year. Your point stands - cultural traditions can take root in any place, and don't necessarily imply a worship of the parent culture. It probably has more to do with a filling a cultural need with a pre-created product than anything else. You could reverse the trend and ask why so many young people are into the 'import' car scene : which generally means Japanese cars. Is this a worship of Japanese culture or just young people finding that Japanese performance cars are cheaper and more accessible?
  - hugh3 16y ago
    If we're going to be nitpicky and irrelevant, "Great Britain" != "The British Isles". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isle...
    - brc 16y ago
      The comment wasn't meant to be nitpicky and irrelevant. Was just meant to be an interesting sidebar into the discussion of the term 'Great Britain'. I guess I should have used a different tone or something. All my other comments I've done expanding something like this have generally been well received, so I'm at a loss why this one was taken so badly. Maybe it was the parent thread.
jimbokun 16y ago
"why are the characters in traditional Japanese paintings look very Japanese (slanted eyes, hairdo, etc.)." So modern anime characters should look more like traditional Japanese paintings? "How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western?" Citation? How many is "many"? "Why is baseball so popular in Japan?" Because they're better at it now than Americans?
- Jun8 16y ago
  Here's (http://www.bellasugar.com/Jessica-Simpson-Eyelid-Surgery-Price-Beauty-8185372 http://www.bellasugar.com/Jessica-Simpson-Eyelid-Surgery-Pri...) a recent link on how popular double eyelid surgery is in Korea and Japan. I don't have the hard figures but I would guess that this procedure would be much more common in Korea and Japan then in China since these populations are more affluent and were heavily affected by US presence. As for baseball, most everyone agrees this is a quintessential American game, some authors have even suggested that it reflects the American spirit. To people from other countries it may seem slow and pointless. If you disregard Cuba, which has close ties to US historically, AFAIK the only non-American culture where baseball is very (or even on the average) popular is Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball#Popularity_and_cultural_impact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball#Popularity_and_cultura...).
  - eru 16y ago
    The linked article says the surgery makes eyes look bigger. They don't say, more western.
  - jimbokun 16y ago
    Baseball is more popular throughout the Caribbean and Latin America than it is in the U.S., and many of the best major leaguers come from there. During the World Baseball Classic, most of the biggest names were playing for countries other than the U.S. And Japan won the tournament, both of the times it has been played so far. The best U.S. finish is fourth. I see the U.S. relationship with baseball becoming similar to that of England with soccer. We may have invented the sport, but that doesn't mean we're the best at it any more.
elblanco 16y ago
> How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western? Why is baseball so popular in Japan? Double eyelid surgery isn't exactly about making the eye bigger. It's to emphasize a small fold between the eyelid and the Epicanthic fold. It's considered beautiful to see just a small sliver of the eyelid from underneath the fold, and in many East Asians, the fold tends to grow too low. Additionally, as people age, the skin of the fold tends to sag and people may want some of it removed in order to open their eyes up. From wikipedia "The procedure of reducing or removing epicanthic folds is epicanthoplasty. It is now an extremely rare procedure. Blepharoplasty, however, is not an uncommon form of cosmetic surgery in East Asia. The use of "eyelid glue" or "eyelid tape" (sometimes referred to as "eye glue" or "eye tape") is used to create the appearance of the "double eyelid" by finding a "natural fold" in the eyelid and tucking it in and holding it with an adhesive." http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/epican1.jpg http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/epican1.jpg

by Jun8 16y ago

edanm 16y ago

Honestly, Japanese anime characters do not look western to me. They look Japanese, but that's probably because I'm used to seeing them in anime! I don't see how classic Japanese drawings have anything to do with it; different styles of drawing grew up in different cultures, I expect, and not just because of the different look of people from those culture. As for the baseball question, I don't think it makes much sense. Soccer is popular almost everywhere in the world except in the United States, so it's obviously not a Western thing, and there are other sports highly popular in some countries and not in others. It has more to do with history than with any fascination. For example, cricket and snooker are extremely popular in countries that used to be parts of Great Britain, but that's just history, not any "worship" of England.

brc 16y ago
Small correction : Great Britain refers to the group of islands also referred to as the British Isles. Great Britain is a geographical reference. The full name of the UK is 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Hence 'British' is a generic term for anyone from the British Isles, although it tends to be used to describe English people, though technically Welsh and Scottish people are also British. This is similar how 'American' refers to citizens of the United States, even though technically anyone from Alaska to Argentina is American. So you can't be a former part of Great Britain unless there is some major tectonic activity! The correct term would be 'former British Colonies', or perhaps, beter still, 'former members of the British Empire' or even 'Commonwealth nations'. Even these have problems because most of the Northeast USA was once part of the British Empire. And, curiously, Canadians never really went for Cricket despite still being in the commonwealth. I guess it's difficult when the fields are under snow for half the year. Your point stands - cultural traditions can take root in any place, and don't necessarily imply a worship of the parent culture. It probably has more to do with a filling a cultural need with a pre-created product than anything else. You could reverse the trend and ask why so many young people are into the 'import' car scene : which generally means Japanese cars. Is this a worship of Japanese culture or just young people finding that Japanese performance cars are cheaper and more accessible?
- hugh3 16y ago
  If we're going to be nitpicky and irrelevant, "Great Britain" != "The British Isles". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isle...
  - brc 16y ago
    The comment wasn't meant to be nitpicky and irrelevant. Was just meant to be an interesting sidebar into the discussion of the term 'Great Britain'. I guess I should have used a different tone or something. All my other comments I've done expanding something like this have generally been well received, so I'm at a loss why this one was taken so badly. Maybe it was the parent thread.

jimbokun 16y ago

"why are the characters in traditional Japanese paintings look very Japanese (slanted eyes, hairdo, etc.)." So modern anime characters should look more like traditional Japanese paintings? "How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western?" Citation? How many is "many"? "Why is baseball so popular in Japan?" Because they're better at it now than Americans?

Jun8 16y ago
Here's (http://www.bellasugar.com/Jessica-Simpson-Eyelid-Surgery-Price-Beauty-8185372 http://www.bellasugar.com/Jessica-Simpson-Eyelid-Surgery-Pri...) a recent link on how popular double eyelid surgery is in Korea and Japan. I don't have the hard figures but I would guess that this procedure would be much more common in Korea and Japan then in China since these populations are more affluent and were heavily affected by US presence. As for baseball, most everyone agrees this is a quintessential American game, some authors have even suggested that it reflects the American spirit. To people from other countries it may seem slow and pointless. If you disregard Cuba, which has close ties to US historically, AFAIK the only non-American culture where baseball is very (or even on the average) popular is Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball#Popularity_and_cultural_impact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball#Popularity_and_cultura...).
- eru 16y ago
  The linked article says the surgery makes eyes look bigger. They don't say, more western.
- jimbokun 16y ago
  Baseball is more popular throughout the Caribbean and Latin America than it is in the U.S., and many of the best major leaguers come from there. During the World Baseball Classic, most of the biggest names were playing for countries other than the U.S. And Japan won the tournament, both of the times it has been played so far. The best U.S. finish is fourth. I see the U.S. relationship with baseball becoming similar to that of England with soccer. We may have invented the sport, but that doesn't mean we're the best at it any more.

elblanco 16y ago

> How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western? Why is baseball so popular in Japan? Double eyelid surgery isn't exactly about making the eye bigger. It's to emphasize a small fold between the eyelid and the Epicanthic fold. It's considered beautiful to see just a small sliver of the eyelid from underneath the fold, and in many East Asians, the fold tends to grow too low. Additionally, as people age, the skin of the fold tends to sag and people may want some of it removed in order to open their eyes up. From wikipedia "The procedure of reducing or removing epicanthic folds is epicanthoplasty. It is now an extremely rare procedure. Blepharoplasty, however, is not an uncommon form of cosmetic surgery in East Asia. The use of "eyelid glue" or "eyelid tape" (sometimes referred to as "eye glue" or "eye tape") is used to create the appearance of the "double eyelid" by finding a "natural fold" in the eyelid and tucking it in and holding it with an adhesive." http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/epican1.jpg http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/epican1.jpg