25 ms·

Google has started the global roll-out of its new Chat messaging service

139 points by jkjustinkumar 8y ago

deathtrader666 8y ago
... to be shut down 18 months later because of lack of traction.
- wereHamster 8y ago
  RCS is a GSM standard (like SMS). So there is nothing to shut down. It's up to the carriers whether they want to support it or not. And support seems to be ok worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
  - Crontab 8y ago
    I think he was talking about the new messaging service - as Google have a history of turning things off.
    - nicktelford 8y ago
      Google aren't building a service. The "Google Chat" app is just an RCS client.
      - Crontab 8y ago
        Ahh. Thank you.
    - robteix 8y ago
      That's the point though: this isn't a new messaging service, it is a protocol standard that will be implemented by carriers, not Google. It is not thing that Google will shut down because there is nothing to shut down. We have better alternatives (Signal, WhatsApp...) for those who care. Those who don't will continue using SMS, and for those, RCS is a good step forward.
      - corobo 8y ago
        Bit of a technicality that though isn't it. An alternate way of saying it is "Android to stop supporting RCS messages in the messaging app"
      - ScalaForever 8y ago
        My 75+ year old mum uses WhatsApp. Not sure who is left.
  - John_KZ 8y ago
    Are they seriously re-doing MMS?
wereHamster 8y ago
> Google's Anil Sabharwal told technology news site The Verge that "RCS continues to be a carrier-owned service", which means that messages can still be legally intercepted. No thanks. We should push toward services which offer end-to-end encryption.
- mlok 8y ago
  I wonder why the Signal protocol could not be the SMS replacement. And it is already widely used.
  - _o_ 8y ago
    Each company wants to earn by using your data, and Signal doesnt allow that (but it can be backdoored). No company like google, apple, microsoft,... is going to give you application where they cant intercept the content.
    - TheCoreh 8y ago
      Apple's iMessage is end-to-end encrypted
      - gsich 8y ago
        You can receive messages on multiple devices. So it would be easy for Apple to simply add a new device without showing you.
        jtbayly 8y ago
        What’s your point? The question at hand is whether any major company would allow consumers to send messages the company can’t harvest for data. The answer is yes. Apple does. Are you saying they don’t? —That they actually have backdoored their E2E messaging app already? If you are just saying that it’s not entirely impossible for them to do backdoor, I don’t see what bearing that has on the discussion.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sumedh 8y ago
Why cant Google just stick to one messaging service?
- donttrack 8y ago
  .. Or just being the advertising company they really are. Turns out it is really hard to be a tech company, when the primary target is to spy on you and not create actual useful products.
- ac29 8y ago
  This isn't a Google messaging service, its a carrier messaging service that Google happens to be building an Android client for.
sp0ck 8y ago
Does it use end-to-end encryption: NOPE Does it use IP and carrier as a fallback (to protect against data retention/archiving text messages): NOPE Apple made it with first approach. Google:chat app, sms app, allo, duo, hangount This will be next on the list. Google can't make good message app - it's against their business model. You can't make targeted ads when you can't read user messages.
- izacus 8y ago
  This is not an app. :/ Why didn't you read the source?
  - wccrawford 8y ago
    It's part of a messaging app. >Chat will be integrated with the default messages app on Android phones.
    - izacus 8y ago
      Yes, it's a standard that is already supported by several apps, including Samsung default messaging app. Which makes complaning about google making an app strange.
    - Pharylon 8y ago
      No, it's a standard that Google's messaging app will (actually, already does) support. But any messaging app can add support if it doesn't already.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  That's another bigger factor: if Apple doesn't include it as a standard for their mobile phones it's not going to get anybody anywhere unless all carriers seem to care to implement it at all. At which case I'm not seeing why pushing for XMPP wouldn't be as valid? Carriers have the capability to power XMPP networks that work accross carriers... Also requires less reinventing the wheel and being locked down to "Google said do this."
swarnie_ 8y ago
So this is Googles attempt to compete with Whatsapp but only on Andriod? I can't see my friendship groups segmenting in two depending on choice of mobile platform. > However, it will be up to mobile operators to enable the service and it does not offer encrypted messages. Yep this will kill it off in short order.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > So this is Googles attempt to compete with Whatsapp but only on Andriod? RCS may have it’s flawa but this is not one of them. It isn’t an Android-specific protocol.
benevol 8y ago
Another piece in Google's mass surveillance business model. An not even encrypted "on the surface" (as Facebook's WhatsApp): > it does not offer encrypted messages Not in this life.
- reitanqild 8y ago
  > An not even encrypted "on the surface" (as Facebook's WhatsApp): As a Telegram user who feel betrayed by and doesn't like WhatsApp, -can we try to keep this sane? Unless you have extraordinary proofs then WhatsApp is effectively E2E encrypted as verified by multiple industry experts. The current problem is not message encryption but metadata leaking to an owner that is known to "move fast and break things", and is considered untrustworthy by many of us. - that is, again, unless you have proof that their encryption is broken. I do not recommend WhatsApp as long as they are owned by Facebook and don't have a business model that is compatible with putting users first, I just think we should be careful about throwing around accusations.
hliyan 8y ago
Google Talk Google Notebook Google Reader Google Buzz Google Wave Google Plus Google Health Google Knol Google SearchWiki Google Allo I'm not really sure if I want to get onboard with this new thing.
- benevol 8y ago
  Google Analytics - that thing that everybody "is used by", on every website, and without even knowing [0] or explicit consent. [0] techies exempt.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    To add to that: they bought that. It used to be called Urchin I think.
    - geerlingguy 8y ago
      Yep, that’s where the ‘UTM’ in all the query strings comes from, Urchin Traffic Monitor I think it was. I used to have the standalone version installed which worked locally on servers and was completely independent of Google, but looked identical to Google Analytics at that time. Of course, Google realized they couldn’t mine any of the tracking data from the standalone version, so that was axed around like 2008 or 2009.
      - neurobashing 8y ago
        Urchin's original mode of operation was as a cron job that scanned your correctly-formatted Apache access_log (via LogFormat stanza) and dumped them into a DB. So there's issues of scale that had to be dealt with, and they decided to just dump it and go w/ the tracking JS.
- redog 8y ago
  hangouts
jlgaddis 8y ago
> The company said it expected the functionality to be widely available on Android phones within two years. Just in time to kill it off!
- pilsetnieks 8y ago
  This isn't a Google app, it's a GSMA standard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services) that's been in the works as long as Android itself. Also, I don't get why they're saying it will be available in the future, it's already been available since Android 6, if I'm not mistaken (https://blog.google/topics/rcs/delivering-rcs-messaging-android-users-worldwide/ https://blog.google/topics/rcs/delivering-rcs-messaging-andr...)
jayess 8y ago
This just seems comical at this point. Google Voice, Google Talk, Google Allo.... I thought they all were supposed to be SMS "replacements."
upofadown 8y ago
>To develop Chat, Google has worked with more than 50 mobile networks including Vodafone, T-Mobile and Verizon and manufacturers such as Samsung, LG and Huawei. Why? This is a proposal for a protocol that works over the internet. What do networks and hardware makers have to do with this? In practice the only entity they would have to talk to for a SMS replacement would be Apple. The world does not actually need a universal SMS replacement however. The world needs a universal instant message protocol that works everywhere; not just on phones.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- IshKebab 8y ago
  To be fair, for the only things that SMS is still used for (outside the US) this could be quite useful. E.g. parcel tracking SMS's could now include a map. Bank statement texts could be in a proper tabular form. That sort of thing. But that's only if networks don't charge as much as they charge for SMS and I'm not holding my breath.
  - philliphaydon 8y ago
    All this stuff is done on what’s app and line outside of the US...
    - Double_a_92 8y ago
      Switzerland here. My creditcard bill access code is still delivered by SMS...
    - josteink 8y ago
      Does your bank send you messages on WhatsApp? Ofcourse not. They use SMS. This whole initiative is about extending the base-protocol (SMS) which everyone is currently limited by. While not universally good (carriers are still given too much power, w.r.t. billing, etc), it's main advantage over any other platform currently available is that this is a protocol-standard suggestion. It's not a walled garden like iMessage or any of those other IM services (which is why no banks or similar use these services, but still use SMS). This is something completely different, and I honestly wish more tech-startups would think in terms of standardized protocols instead of closed services. Creating and developing standardized protocols is what once made the internet great and infinitely innovative. Recently the rise of closed services is what has caused this innovation-curve to almost completely drop down to zero. Basically we need more protocol-development. EOT. Maybe next time we can draft a standardized protocol which wont give or even include carriers. But for now this is a good start for creating a standard IM platform available for everyone to replace SMS. Apple should have done this ages ago with iMessage, but didn't. Props to Google for actually putting in the effort this time around!
romanovcode 8y ago
No encryption and from Google. Thanks but no thanks.
huffmsa 8y ago
Why isn't there a (̶2̶0̶1̶2̶)̶ (̶2̶0̶1̶4̶)̶ (2016) tag at the end of the title?
- zaarn 8y ago
  I'm not sure but I think it's a new attempt. Google is making it difficult to keep track...
- lainga 8y ago
  If the announcement is two years old, Google should be deprecating RCS sometime around now.
Jonnax 8y ago
I think RCS has been available for a while. I know my Samsung Phone supports it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jgresty 8y ago
From all the articles I have read on this, it is never mentioned if this will be in AOSP or part of Google Play Services. I really hope they allow any app to use RCS messages instead of keeping it in their own walled garden.
naa83 8y ago
...
nsbq71 8y ago
iOS does not support RCS so it's dead on arrival.
- erikb 8y ago
  Trolling right? If my phone can, and 86% of other smart phone users can then I'd say it doesn't really matter if iphone users can as well. They could buy a smart phone, too.
  - nsbq71 8y ago
    Not really trolling, think about it. Here in Europe we all have whatsapp that works right. Why would we switch to RCS, which is an inferior replacement (no E2E for example), and that does not even support all major platforms? Back when RCS (under the name of Joyn) was about to be released everybody dreamt of switching to it, thinking that maybe, just maybe, telcos would make RCS free, so you wouldn't have to buy data to chat, like you have to do with whatsapp (back then many people didn't have data). That never happened evidently, and now most people have data because it's gotten much cheaper. So there's no way we will leave whatsapp, and yes RCS is dead.
    - vegardx 8y ago
      I don't know a single person that uses WhatsApp, and I live in Europe. We have a tendency to think that everyone adopts the same things, especially when it comes to technology. This has been demonstrated to not be true multiple times. It'd be cool if we had a standard that everyone could use, like SMS, just that supported larger messages. Oh wait...
      - Double_a_92 8y ago
        What do your people use? Facebook chat, Telegram...?
        vegardx 8y ago
        Kind of besides the point, but Facebook Messenger, Snapchat and iMessage has very good penetration, people usually have two of the three. And everyone just fall back on SMS when if they need to.
erikb 8y ago
It is so obvious that it will be a failure. I know like 4 big Google projects and all seem to be failures (Kubernetes being the most successful, but still in hype so nobody realizes yet how mediocre it is). Right now it seems a good time to start working on a Google killer.
- plicense 8y ago
  Mind naming the 4 big failed projects?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > I know like 4 big Google projects and all seem to be failures > Right now it seems a good time to start working on a Google killer. If all Google had was the handful of failures you claim to be (rather selectively) aware of, there'd be no need for a Google killer.
- Crash0v3rid3 8y ago
  Can you clarify on what is mediocre about Kubernetes?
  - erikb 8y ago
    Could you clarify what is not? The only advantage over rolling out docker images by yourself is the scheduler. And if I consider what we wasted amounts of time we already in my team I'd say in that time we could have written our own docker container that can schedule containers on (or from) other hosts. You can easily see that a solution is mediocre if you see that it doesn't attempt to solve any of the hard problems (in this case networking, network debugging, storage, performance) while requiring lots of overhead to do a trivial thing (e.g. here are my static html files, no go and host these). It works okay on AWS/GoogleCloud but at least on AWS you already have all the features of k8s on IaaS level. On everything else it runs shitty and you spend more human resources on getting it to work / keeping it working than when you do the scheduling yourself.
dosycorp 8y ago
Relative to LINE/WhatsApp/Messenger/WeChat/Hangouts -- does anyone use SMS? If big G really thinks it's going to "replace SMS" ( and they can leverage their platform to roll it out / lock in ) then good luck to them, maybe they can replace SMS. But so what? SMS was not the killer messaging app. Those things are elsewhere. Why does big G have an aversion to big acquisitions? FB buys WhatsApp & IG -- Great moves MS has made some big purchases But the big G seems to purchase, but only for small dollar amounts (relatively). Same with Apple. Even tho these two corps have (don't they?) big loads of cash. I think it's technical arrogance. Big G and Apple are used to being revered as King S&&t of their tech. So they think they can build it themselves. Ahahaha, sure, you can BUILD it...but can you get product/market fit to where it matters as a replacement? I feel sorry for them. I think Big G and Apple obviously do great, but couldn't they do better to just narrow their focus. Even tho FB is f^&&d up in a lot of ways, one thing to really admire about their business is their narrow narrow focus. Even Oculus makes sense because Zuck sees a "Ready Player 1" world as the future ( with him as God Emperor, of course..heh ).
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  In high school I hated having ICQ and MSN and AIM because friends opted to use different ones. SMS is great because it connects you to anyone with a phone. And that's why I like apps like signal that will fallback to SMS but make it trivial to use the secure protocol if it happens that the person you're talking to also uses signal.
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  > Relative to LINE/WhatsApp/Messenger/WeChat/Hangouts -- does anyone use SMS? Absolutely. Why? Because I simply do not want to install 7 different chat apps.
- arbitrage 8y ago
  > SMS was not the killer messaging app. You're nuts, and obviously lacking the context of this history of SMS development and use.
  - dosycorp 8y ago
na85 8y ago
Neat. I look forward to seeing an awesome post-mortem in 2 years when they abandon this project.
cyberferret 8y ago
How quaint. Is Google Fax still in late Beta and will be released next month? But seriously - Is 'SMS replacement' even a thing now? I think I only ever chat to my wife via SMS these days because she won't install third party apps on her phone and has no social media accounts. All my friends, colleagues and kids send messages to each other via about 3 different chat apps depending on age (kids) and context.
- mlok 8y ago
  Where are you based ? Here in France, SMS / MMS are still the most widely used. More than any other third party app. Most of phone carriers plans here offer unlimited sms / mms for free now, so it's pretty much THE default. It would be interesting to see a messaging apps usage comparison, country by country.
  - cyberferret 8y ago
    I am in Australia, and just going back through my messages list on my phone, I can see that my wife, my massage therapist and doctor/dentist etc. are mainly who sends me texts these days, oh, and my telco also does voice to text translations and send the transcripts to me via SMS. I do recall that my doctors office did offer the option of Snapchat recently, I believe, for appointment alerts. Also, the voice to text thing, I have been thinking of writing my own little app connected to my SIP phone system and Amazon AWS to try and achieve the same thing, just as a little programming exercise. If I have to be honest, if my SMS was turned off tomorrow, there would be very little impact on my life (as long as I installed Telegram or Snapchat on my wife's phone).
    - barbs 8y ago
      I'm also in Australia. Most of my messaging goes through other apps, mostly WhatsApp or FB messenger. I do have a few friends that are holding out on SMS but mostly I just treat it as a backup service for when I don't have data. SMS has already been replaced by far more secure and mature apps. It's good to have it there as a primitive option though.
  - 8y ago
north_east_dev 8y ago
How long until they abandon this one?
mshenfield 8y ago
This is definitely going to work - it's just iMessage for Android. Google can deploy a default version of Chat in the next one or two Android releases. Users won't notice the difference except that SMS has some nicer features. Google can snoop on Chats directly if the web service backing them is Google run. Even if they can't, a better default messaging experience will take business away from competitors like WhatsApp and Messenger.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > This is definitely going to work - it's just iMessage for Android. It's neither like iMessage nor specifically for Android. > Google can snoop on Chats directly if the web service backing them is Google run. It's not, it's (like SMS) carrier infrastructure. Chat is just an RCS client app, RCS is the SMS replacement technology.
  - mshenfield 8y ago
    > It's neither like iMessage It will provide a similar experience, a default messaging client that gracefully enhances the SMS experience we're used to. > nor specifically for Android It's a standard, but considering Android is the biggest mobile operating system and the second biggest has it's own version of this, and the protocol is being pushed by the Android's creators, it's fair to say this is "for Android", at least at first. > It's not, it's (like SMS) carrier infrastructure. Chat is just an RCS client app, RCS is the SMS replacement technology. It's possible that Google would provide services to support it, the same way Apple provides the service for push notifications.
    - lloeki 8y ago
      > gracefully enhances the SMS experience we're used to I'm eagerly awaiting the gracefully enhanced experience of receiving unsolicited rich-content spam. EDIT: Just realised this abbreviates to RCS. Pure luck.
    - jjrh 8y ago
      > and the protocol is being pushed by the Android's creators I think it's really being pushed by the carriers who want people to use it. Google is just implementing it.
pmlnr 8y ago
In other news, Google wants to read your SMS messages.
jannes 8y ago
I have a prediction for this: Dead on arrival
kanishkdudeja 8y ago
Any link for the APK yet? Would love to try this out!
limeblack 8y ago
FYI this requires a data plan[1] which is going to be really frustrating for those using prepaid/gophone/low income cheap plans with out a contract. [1] https://youtu.be/PCh-qRYMAKk?t=3m39s https://youtu.be/PCh-qRYMAKk?t=3m39s
- mgsk 8y ago
  And they can just use regular SMS?
MistahKoala 8y ago
Is this something that users will have to opt in to to use or will it be a seamless integration with existing applications? i.e., will it require the download of a new app or will it just be something that extends Android's existing messaging app?
newscracker 8y ago
Is the title misleading or am I confused? Google can only rollout its app on stock Android for Chat (known as RCS), the supposed successor to SMS that is (also) a carrier protocol that comes with the ubiquity and disadvantages of SMS. Google announced recently that it has worked with several telecom carriers around the world, Android OEMs, etc., on the implementation and rollout of RCS. But it's not the one that's going to be doing any rollouts by a large measure.
- maym86 8y ago
  Yep the title is misleading. "Google has stressed that Chat is not a new Google app. Since RCS is a communications standard, it is up to individual mobile networks and phone-makers to switch on the functionality." The title should be something like: Google has started the global roll-out to support a new messaging standard.
  - squeaky-clean 8y ago
    But Chat is still a new Google app, isn't it? RCS is the new standard, but "Chat" is a Google app. There's a chance they could stop supporting it, and with the next-next version of android go back to shipping an SMS messenger, or (more believably) decide a new standard is better and ship that, dumping RCS. To me it reads like "Google has stressed that Chrome is not a new Google app. Since HTTP is a communications standard, it is up to individual mobile networks and website-makers to switch on the functionality."
djrogers 8y ago
I think this is really short-sighted. I’ve got 3 kids, and they message with bunch of their friends on tablets. Not phones connected to carriers - WiFi tablets. This isn’t uncommon either. Why require a cell carrier to back your messaging app? It’s just soooo limiting!
- bitmapbrother 8y ago
  I agree. Google could have easily turned Allo into something very similar to iMessage by just adding Google account support, default E2E encryption and SMS fallback. It would have also worked on every device that was connected to the Internet. But, it looks like they've decided to get into bed with the carriers again and used some altruistic bullshit explanation that an open solution, involving the carriers, is the right solution. This company just can't seem to learn from its mistakes.
- jjrh 8y ago
  > Why require a cell carrier to back your messaging app? It’s just soooo limiting! I totally agree - but this is about replacing/improving SMS where you already need a carrier.
dingo_bat 8y ago
Let's just everybody install whatsapp and put an end to this stupidity please.
- falcor84 8y ago
  Yes, let's perhaps create a law forcing everyone to provide Facebook with some more of their (meta)data /s Perhaps in some utopia, where we could force Facebook to sell WhatsApp and have it be managed instead as a non-profit sponsored by our benevolent world government...
  - dingo_bat 8y ago
    It's better than giving literally all our data to Google.
quark33 8y ago
I know in Europe, most phone plans have limited SMS, so often Whatsapp is preferred which uses data or Wifi. So if this uses Data, how will this be advantageous for US users who have plans with limited data, but unlimited SMS?
coryfklein 8y ago
Google's messaging strategy is starting to sound more and more like that XKCD [1] How Standards Proliferate (See: A/C chargers, character encodings, instant messaging, etc.) Situation: There are 14 competing standards. Cueball: 14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases. Ponytail: Yeah! Soon: Situation: There are 15 competing standards. [1] https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
jacksmith21006 8y ago
Hope this catches on. Now have a pixel 2 XL which I love but still carry an iPhone mostly for iMessages.
supercarsw 8y ago
hahaha what a joke. who will trust google or fb of anything...
hnburnsy 8y ago
Weird... https://support.google.com/chat/?hl=en https://support.google.com/chat/?hl=en "Goodbye Google Chat Google Chat was officially shut down on June 26, 2017. To continue chatting and video calling, try Hangouts. Learn more about Hangouts. Google Chat, the simple Google Talk chat experience in Gmail, launched in 2005. In 2013, we began replacing Google Chat with Hangouts, while still giving users the option to continue using Google Chat. Hangouts offers advanced improvements over Google Chat such as group chat, Android and iOS apps, group video calling, and integration with other Google products."
exabrial 8y ago
Maybe Google's strategy is: get nice messaging into the market first as a fallback. Then we'll push Allo again and we can fall back to RCS... The carriers shouldn't be involved in messaging at all, sigh. SMS was a downgrade from AIM and ICQ.

139 points by jkjustinkumar 8y ago

deathtrader666 8y ago

... to be shut down 18 months later because of lack of traction.

wereHamster 8y ago
RCS is a GSM standard (like SMS). So there is nothing to shut down. It's up to the carriers whether they want to support it or not. And support seems to be ok worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
- Crontab 8y ago
  I think he was talking about the new messaging service - as Google have a history of turning things off.
  - nicktelford 8y ago
    Google aren't building a service. The "Google Chat" app is just an RCS client.
    - Crontab 8y ago
      Ahh. Thank you.
  - robteix 8y ago
    That's the point though: this isn't a new messaging service, it is a protocol standard that will be implemented by carriers, not Google. It is not thing that Google will shut down because there is nothing to shut down. We have better alternatives (Signal, WhatsApp...) for those who care. Those who don't will continue using SMS, and for those, RCS is a good step forward.
    - corobo 8y ago
      Bit of a technicality that though isn't it. An alternate way of saying it is "Android to stop supporting RCS messages in the messaging app"
    - ScalaForever 8y ago
      My 75+ year old mum uses WhatsApp. Not sure who is left.
- John_KZ 8y ago
  Are they seriously re-doing MMS?

wereHamster 8y ago

> Google's Anil Sabharwal told technology news site The Verge that "RCS continues to be a carrier-owned service", which means that messages can still be legally intercepted. No thanks. We should push toward services which offer end-to-end encryption.

mlok 8y ago
I wonder why the Signal protocol could not be the SMS replacement. And it is already widely used.
- _o_ 8y ago
  Each company wants to earn by using your data, and Signal doesnt allow that (but it can be backdoored). No company like google, apple, microsoft,... is going to give you application where they cant intercept the content.
  - TheCoreh 8y ago
    Apple's iMessage is end-to-end encrypted
    - gsich 8y ago
      You can receive messages on multiple devices. So it would be easy for Apple to simply add a new device without showing you.
      - jtbayly 8y ago
        What’s your point? The question at hand is whether any major company would allow consumers to send messages the company can’t harvest for data. The answer is yes. Apple does. Are you saying they don’t? —That they actually have backdoored their E2E messaging app already? If you are just saying that it’s not entirely impossible for them to do backdoor, I don’t see what bearing that has on the discussion.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

sumedh 8y ago

Why cant Google just stick to one messaging service?

donttrack 8y ago
.. Or just being the advertising company they really are. Turns out it is really hard to be a tech company, when the primary target is to spy on you and not create actual useful products.
ac29 8y ago
This isn't a Google messaging service, its a carrier messaging service that Google happens to be building an Android client for.

sp0ck 8y ago

Does it use end-to-end encryption: NOPE Does it use IP and carrier as a fallback (to protect against data retention/archiving text messages): NOPE Apple made it with first approach. Google:chat app, sms app, allo, duo, hangount This will be next on the list. Google can't make good message app - it's against their business model. You can't make targeted ads when you can't read user messages.

izacus 8y ago
This is not an app. :/ Why didn't you read the source?
- wccrawford 8y ago
  It's part of a messaging app. >Chat will be integrated with the default messages app on Android phones.
  - izacus 8y ago
    Yes, it's a standard that is already supported by several apps, including Samsung default messaging app. Which makes complaning about google making an app strange.
  - Pharylon 8y ago
    No, it's a standard that Google's messaging app will (actually, already does) support. But any messaging app can add support if it doesn't already.
giancarlostoro 8y ago
That's another bigger factor: if Apple doesn't include it as a standard for their mobile phones it's not going to get anybody anywhere unless all carriers seem to care to implement it at all. At which case I'm not seeing why pushing for XMPP wouldn't be as valid? Carriers have the capability to power XMPP networks that work accross carriers... Also requires less reinventing the wheel and being locked down to "Google said do this."

swarnie_ 8y ago

So this is Googles attempt to compete with Whatsapp but only on Andriod? I can't see my friendship groups segmenting in two depending on choice of mobile platform. > However, it will be up to mobile operators to enable the service and it does not offer encrypted messages. Yep this will kill it off in short order.

saagarjha 8y ago
> So this is Googles attempt to compete with Whatsapp but only on Andriod? RCS may have it’s flawa but this is not one of them. It isn’t an Android-specific protocol.

benevol 8y ago

Another piece in Google's mass surveillance business model. An not even encrypted "on the surface" (as Facebook's WhatsApp): > it does not offer encrypted messages Not in this life.

reitanqild 8y ago
> An not even encrypted "on the surface" (as Facebook's WhatsApp): As a Telegram user who feel betrayed by and doesn't like WhatsApp, -can we try to keep this sane? Unless you have extraordinary proofs then WhatsApp is effectively E2E encrypted as verified by multiple industry experts. The current problem is not message encryption but metadata leaking to an owner that is known to "move fast and break things", and is considered untrustworthy by many of us. - that is, again, unless you have proof that their encryption is broken. I do not recommend WhatsApp as long as they are owned by Facebook and don't have a business model that is compatible with putting users first, I just think we should be careful about throwing around accusations.

hliyan 8y ago

Google Talk Google Notebook Google Reader Google Buzz Google Wave Google Plus Google Health Google Knol Google SearchWiki Google Allo I'm not really sure if I want to get onboard with this new thing.

benevol 8y ago
Google Analytics - that thing that everybody "is used by", on every website, and without even knowing [0] or explicit consent. [0] techies exempt.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- reitanqild 8y ago
  To add to that: they bought that. It used to be called Urchin I think.
  - geerlingguy 8y ago
    Yep, that’s where the ‘UTM’ in all the query strings comes from, Urchin Traffic Monitor I think it was. I used to have the standalone version installed which worked locally on servers and was completely independent of Google, but looked identical to Google Analytics at that time. Of course, Google realized they couldn’t mine any of the tracking data from the standalone version, so that was axed around like 2008 or 2009.
    - neurobashing 8y ago
      Urchin's original mode of operation was as a cron job that scanned your correctly-formatted Apache access_log (via LogFormat stanza) and dumped them into a DB. So there's issues of scale that had to be dealt with, and they decided to just dump it and go w/ the tracking JS.
redog 8y ago
hangouts

jlgaddis 8y ago

> The company said it expected the functionality to be widely available on Android phones within two years. Just in time to kill it off!

pilsetnieks 8y ago
This isn't a Google app, it's a GSMA standard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services) that's been in the works as long as Android itself. Also, I don't get why they're saying it will be available in the future, it's already been available since Android 6, if I'm not mistaken (https://blog.google/topics/rcs/delivering-rcs-messaging-android-users-worldwide/ https://blog.google/topics/rcs/delivering-rcs-messaging-andr...)

jayess 8y ago

This just seems comical at this point. Google Voice, Google Talk, Google Allo.... I thought they all were supposed to be SMS "replacements."

upofadown 8y ago

>To develop Chat, Google has worked with more than 50 mobile networks including Vodafone, T-Mobile and Verizon and manufacturers such as Samsung, LG and Huawei. Why? This is a proposal for a protocol that works over the internet. What do networks and hardware makers have to do with this? In practice the only entity they would have to talk to for a SMS replacement would be Apple. The world does not actually need a universal SMS replacement however. The world needs a universal instant message protocol that works everywhere; not just on phones.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
IshKebab 8y ago
To be fair, for the only things that SMS is still used for (outside the US) this could be quite useful. E.g. parcel tracking SMS's could now include a map. Bank statement texts could be in a proper tabular form. That sort of thing. But that's only if networks don't charge as much as they charge for SMS and I'm not holding my breath.
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  All this stuff is done on what’s app and line outside of the US...
  - Double_a_92 8y ago
    Switzerland here. My creditcard bill access code is still delivered by SMS...
  - josteink 8y ago
    Does your bank send you messages on WhatsApp? Ofcourse not. They use SMS. This whole initiative is about extending the base-protocol (SMS) which everyone is currently limited by. While not universally good (carriers are still given too much power, w.r.t. billing, etc), it's main advantage over any other platform currently available is that this is a protocol-standard suggestion. It's not a walled garden like iMessage or any of those other IM services (which is why no banks or similar use these services, but still use SMS). This is something completely different, and I honestly wish more tech-startups would think in terms of standardized protocols instead of closed services. Creating and developing standardized protocols is what once made the internet great and infinitely innovative. Recently the rise of closed services is what has caused this innovation-curve to almost completely drop down to zero. Basically we need more protocol-development. EOT. Maybe next time we can draft a standardized protocol which wont give or even include carriers. But for now this is a good start for creating a standard IM platform available for everyone to replace SMS. Apple should have done this ages ago with iMessage, but didn't. Props to Google for actually putting in the effort this time around!

romanovcode 8y ago

No encryption and from Google. Thanks but no thanks.

huffmsa 8y ago

Why isn't there a (̶2̶0̶1̶2̶)̶ (̶2̶0̶1̶4̶)̶ (2016) tag at the end of the title?

zaarn 8y ago
I'm not sure but I think it's a new attempt. Google is making it difficult to keep track...
lainga 8y ago
If the announcement is two years old, Google should be deprecating RCS sometime around now.

Jonnax 8y ago

I think RCS has been available for a while. I know my Samsung Phone supports it.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jgresty 8y ago

From all the articles I have read on this, it is never mentioned if this will be in AOSP or part of Google Play Services. I really hope they allow any app to use RCS messages instead of keeping it in their own walled garden.

naa83 8y ago

...

nsbq71 8y ago

iOS does not support RCS so it's dead on arrival.

erikb 8y ago
Trolling right? If my phone can, and 86% of other smart phone users can then I'd say it doesn't really matter if iphone users can as well. They could buy a smart phone, too.
- nsbq71 8y ago
  Not really trolling, think about it. Here in Europe we all have whatsapp that works right. Why would we switch to RCS, which is an inferior replacement (no E2E for example), and that does not even support all major platforms? Back when RCS (under the name of Joyn) was about to be released everybody dreamt of switching to it, thinking that maybe, just maybe, telcos would make RCS free, so you wouldn't have to buy data to chat, like you have to do with whatsapp (back then many people didn't have data). That never happened evidently, and now most people have data because it's gotten much cheaper. So there's no way we will leave whatsapp, and yes RCS is dead.
  - vegardx 8y ago
    I don't know a single person that uses WhatsApp, and I live in Europe. We have a tendency to think that everyone adopts the same things, especially when it comes to technology. This has been demonstrated to not be true multiple times. It'd be cool if we had a standard that everyone could use, like SMS, just that supported larger messages. Oh wait...
    - Double_a_92 8y ago
      What do your people use? Facebook chat, Telegram...?
      - vegardx 8y ago
        Kind of besides the point, but Facebook Messenger, Snapchat and iMessage has very good penetration, people usually have two of the three. And everyone just fall back on SMS when if they need to.

erikb 8y ago

It is so obvious that it will be a failure. I know like 4 big Google projects and all seem to be failures (Kubernetes being the most successful, but still in hype so nobody realizes yet how mediocre it is). Right now it seems a good time to start working on a Google killer.

plicense 8y ago
Mind naming the 4 big failed projects?
dragonwriter 8y ago
> I know like 4 big Google projects and all seem to be failures > Right now it seems a good time to start working on a Google killer. If all Google had was the handful of failures you claim to be (rather selectively) aware of, there'd be no need for a Google killer.
Crash0v3rid3 8y ago
Can you clarify on what is mediocre about Kubernetes?
- erikb 8y ago
  Could you clarify what is not? The only advantage over rolling out docker images by yourself is the scheduler. And if I consider what we wasted amounts of time we already in my team I'd say in that time we could have written our own docker container that can schedule containers on (or from) other hosts. You can easily see that a solution is mediocre if you see that it doesn't attempt to solve any of the hard problems (in this case networking, network debugging, storage, performance) while requiring lots of overhead to do a trivial thing (e.g. here are my static html files, no go and host these). It works okay on AWS/GoogleCloud but at least on AWS you already have all the features of k8s on IaaS level. On everything else it runs shitty and you spend more human resources on getting it to work / keeping it working than when you do the scheduling yourself.

dosycorp 8y ago

Relative to LINE/WhatsApp/Messenger/WeChat/Hangouts -- does anyone use SMS? If big G really thinks it's going to "replace SMS" ( and they can leverage their platform to roll it out / lock in ) then good luck to them, maybe they can replace SMS. But so what? SMS was not the killer messaging app. Those things are elsewhere. Why does big G have an aversion to big acquisitions? FB buys WhatsApp & IG -- Great moves MS has made some big purchases But the big G seems to purchase, but only for small dollar amounts (relatively). Same with Apple. Even tho these two corps have (don't they?) big loads of cash. I think it's technical arrogance. Big G and Apple are used to being revered as King S&&t of their tech. So they think they can build it themselves. Ahahaha, sure, you can BUILD it...but can you get product/market fit to where it matters as a replacement? I feel sorry for them. I think Big G and Apple obviously do great, but couldn't they do better to just narrow their focus. Even tho FB is f^&&d up in a lot of ways, one thing to really admire about their business is their narrow narrow focus. Even Oculus makes sense because Zuck sees a "Ready Player 1" world as the future ( with him as God Emperor, of course..heh ).

Waterluvian 8y ago
In high school I hated having ICQ and MSN and AIM because friends opted to use different ones. SMS is great because it connects you to anyone with a phone. And that's why I like apps like signal that will fallback to SMS but make it trivial to use the secure protocol if it happens that the person you're talking to also uses signal.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
> Relative to LINE/WhatsApp/Messenger/WeChat/Hangouts -- does anyone use SMS? Absolutely. Why? Because I simply do not want to install 7 different chat apps.
arbitrage 8y ago
> SMS was not the killer messaging app. You're nuts, and obviously lacking the context of this history of SMS development and use.
- dosycorp 8y ago

na85 8y ago

Neat. I look forward to seeing an awesome post-mortem in 2 years when they abandon this project.

cyberferret 8y ago

How quaint. Is Google Fax still in late Beta and will be released next month? But seriously - Is 'SMS replacement' even a thing now? I think I only ever chat to my wife via SMS these days because she won't install third party apps on her phone and has no social media accounts. All my friends, colleagues and kids send messages to each other via about 3 different chat apps depending on age (kids) and context.

mlok 8y ago
Where are you based ? Here in France, SMS / MMS are still the most widely used. More than any other third party app. Most of phone carriers plans here offer unlimited sms / mms for free now, so it's pretty much THE default. It would be interesting to see a messaging apps usage comparison, country by country.
- cyberferret 8y ago
  I am in Australia, and just going back through my messages list on my phone, I can see that my wife, my massage therapist and doctor/dentist etc. are mainly who sends me texts these days, oh, and my telco also does voice to text translations and send the transcripts to me via SMS. I do recall that my doctors office did offer the option of Snapchat recently, I believe, for appointment alerts. Also, the voice to text thing, I have been thinking of writing my own little app connected to my SIP phone system and Amazon AWS to try and achieve the same thing, just as a little programming exercise. If I have to be honest, if my SMS was turned off tomorrow, there would be very little impact on my life (as long as I installed Telegram or Snapchat on my wife's phone).
  - barbs 8y ago
    I'm also in Australia. Most of my messaging goes through other apps, mostly WhatsApp or FB messenger. I do have a few friends that are holding out on SMS but mostly I just treat it as a backup service for when I don't have data. SMS has already been replaced by far more secure and mature apps. It's good to have it there as a primitive option though.
- 8y ago

north_east_dev 8y ago

How long until they abandon this one?

mshenfield 8y ago

This is definitely going to work - it's just iMessage for Android. Google can deploy a default version of Chat in the next one or two Android releases. Users won't notice the difference except that SMS has some nicer features. Google can snoop on Chats directly if the web service backing them is Google run. Even if they can't, a better default messaging experience will take business away from competitors like WhatsApp and Messenger.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> This is definitely going to work - it's just iMessage for Android. It's neither like iMessage nor specifically for Android. > Google can snoop on Chats directly if the web service backing them is Google run. It's not, it's (like SMS) carrier infrastructure. Chat is just an RCS client app, RCS is the SMS replacement technology.
- mshenfield 8y ago
  > It's neither like iMessage It will provide a similar experience, a default messaging client that gracefully enhances the SMS experience we're used to. > nor specifically for Android It's a standard, but considering Android is the biggest mobile operating system and the second biggest has it's own version of this, and the protocol is being pushed by the Android's creators, it's fair to say this is "for Android", at least at first. > It's not, it's (like SMS) carrier infrastructure. Chat is just an RCS client app, RCS is the SMS replacement technology. It's possible that Google would provide services to support it, the same way Apple provides the service for push notifications.
  - lloeki 8y ago
    > gracefully enhances the SMS experience we're used to I'm eagerly awaiting the gracefully enhanced experience of receiving unsolicited rich-content spam. EDIT: Just realised this abbreviates to RCS. Pure luck.
  - jjrh 8y ago
    > and the protocol is being pushed by the Android's creators I think it's really being pushed by the carriers who want people to use it. Google is just implementing it.

pmlnr 8y ago

In other news, Google wants to read your SMS messages.

jannes 8y ago

I have a prediction for this: Dead on arrival

kanishkdudeja 8y ago

Any link for the APK yet? Would love to try this out!

limeblack 8y ago

FYI this requires a data plan[1] which is going to be really frustrating for those using prepaid/gophone/low income cheap plans with out a contract. [1] https://youtu.be/PCh-qRYMAKk?t=3m39s https://youtu.be/PCh-qRYMAKk?t=3m39s

mgsk 8y ago
And they can just use regular SMS?

MistahKoala 8y ago

Is this something that users will have to opt in to to use or will it be a seamless integration with existing applications? i.e., will it require the download of a new app or will it just be something that extends Android's existing messaging app?

newscracker 8y ago

Is the title misleading or am I confused? Google can only rollout its app on stock Android for Chat (known as RCS), the supposed successor to SMS that is (also) a carrier protocol that comes with the ubiquity and disadvantages of SMS. Google announced recently that it has worked with several telecom carriers around the world, Android OEMs, etc., on the implementation and rollout of RCS. But it's not the one that's going to be doing any rollouts by a large measure.

maym86 8y ago
Yep the title is misleading. "Google has stressed that Chat is not a new Google app. Since RCS is a communications standard, it is up to individual mobile networks and phone-makers to switch on the functionality." The title should be something like: Google has started the global roll-out to support a new messaging standard.
- squeaky-clean 8y ago
  But Chat is still a new Google app, isn't it? RCS is the new standard, but "Chat" is a Google app. There's a chance they could stop supporting it, and with the next-next version of android go back to shipping an SMS messenger, or (more believably) decide a new standard is better and ship that, dumping RCS. To me it reads like "Google has stressed that Chrome is not a new Google app. Since HTTP is a communications standard, it is up to individual mobile networks and website-makers to switch on the functionality."

djrogers 8y ago

I think this is really short-sighted. I’ve got 3 kids, and they message with bunch of their friends on tablets. Not phones connected to carriers - WiFi tablets. This isn’t uncommon either. Why require a cell carrier to back your messaging app? It’s just soooo limiting!

bitmapbrother 8y ago
I agree. Google could have easily turned Allo into something very similar to iMessage by just adding Google account support, default E2E encryption and SMS fallback. It would have also worked on every device that was connected to the Internet. But, it looks like they've decided to get into bed with the carriers again and used some altruistic bullshit explanation that an open solution, involving the carriers, is the right solution. This company just can't seem to learn from its mistakes.
jjrh 8y ago
> Why require a cell carrier to back your messaging app? It’s just soooo limiting! I totally agree - but this is about replacing/improving SMS where you already need a carrier.

dingo_bat 8y ago

Let's just everybody install whatsapp and put an end to this stupidity please.

falcor84 8y ago
Yes, let's perhaps create a law forcing everyone to provide Facebook with some more of their (meta)data /s Perhaps in some utopia, where we could force Facebook to sell WhatsApp and have it be managed instead as a non-profit sponsored by our benevolent world government...
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  It's better than giving literally all our data to Google.

quark33 8y ago

I know in Europe, most phone plans have limited SMS, so often Whatsapp is preferred which uses data or Wifi. So if this uses Data, how will this be advantageous for US users who have plans with limited data, but unlimited SMS?

coryfklein 8y ago

Google's messaging strategy is starting to sound more and more like that XKCD [1] How Standards Proliferate (See: A/C chargers, character encodings, instant messaging, etc.) Situation: There are 14 competing standards. Cueball: 14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases. Ponytail: Yeah! Soon: Situation: There are 15 competing standards. [1] https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

jacksmith21006 8y ago

Hope this catches on. Now have a pixel 2 XL which I love but still carry an iPhone mostly for iMessages.

supercarsw 8y ago

hahaha what a joke. who will trust google or fb of anything...

hnburnsy 8y ago

Weird... https://support.google.com/chat/?hl=en https://support.google.com/chat/?hl=en "Goodbye Google Chat Google Chat was officially shut down on June 26, 2017. To continue chatting and video calling, try Hangouts. Learn more about Hangouts. Google Chat, the simple Google Talk chat experience in Gmail, launched in 2005. In 2013, we began replacing Google Chat with Hangouts, while still giving users the option to continue using Google Chat. Hangouts offers advanced improvements over Google Chat such as group chat, Android and iOS apps, group video calling, and integration with other Google products."

exabrial 8y ago

Maybe Google's strategy is: get nice messaging into the market first as a fallback. Then we'll push Allo again and we can fall back to RCS... The carriers shouldn't be involved in messaging at all, sigh. SMS was a downgrade from AIM and ICQ.