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Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria
- rmrfrmrf 9y agoThis comment section is full of misinformation.
- guilhas 9y agoThe underlying assumption of the article also
- guilhas 9y agoHN quality. News of a illegal bombing in Syria was to political for main page. Anti-russia theories blog Bellingcat? No problem. What's next ZeroHedge?
- scottie_m 9y agoI want to be clear that I don’t know if chemical weapons are being used in Syria, although the evidence for the use of Chlorine in barrel bombs is strong. I’ll be honest and say that I haven’t seen good evidence of organophosphate poisonings, but I’m just some guy so who knows. What I do know for sure however, is that this blog is utter bunk. The Belgian customs found that without having requested the appropriate export licenses three Flemish companies have exported 96 tonnes of isopropanol in a concentration of 95% or higher to Syria since sanctions came into force in September 2013. That’s rubbing alcohol! That’s not evidence of sarin manufacture, it’s not a “precursor” it’s rubbing alcohol in typical concentrations for goddamned Purell. Can you use it as part of a process to make sarin? Sure, but it’s not a critical ingredient, it’s not what any honest person would consider a precursor, it’s just a solvent. It also antimocrobial and antiseptic, and you know... rubbing alcohol.
- wbl 9y agoIt is not just a solvent. You can use ethanol in hand sanitizer, but isopropanol is what you need for sarin. That's why it's on the precursor lists, but at a low level in recognition of its industrial uses.
- scottie_m 9y agoIt’s one thing you can use, especially if you’re a fan of Dexter, but back in the real world we already control the actual precursor Methylphosphonyl difluoride. If you take sodium cyanide and drop it into H2SO4 and water, you get poison gas. If you want to stop that, control the production and export of cyanide, not the water or sulphuric acid! Isopropyl alcohol is not a chemical weapon precursor, just like water isn’t a cyanide gas precursor.
- wbl 9y agoHere is the CWC Schedule II: https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/annexes/annex-on-chemicals/schedule-2/ https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/annexes/ann.... Notice an alcohol appears on the list, while organophosphates appear on Schedule I. Both are controlled.
- scottie_m 9y ago“An alcohol” Is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Ethanol is an alcohol, enjoy a lovely drink. Methanol is an alcohol, try not to to drink it. Alcohol is an incredibly broad family and the scheduled substance (Pinacolyl alcohol: 3,3-Dimethylbutan-2-ol) is not isopropyl alcohol. It’s not even close. It’s also not a precursor to sarin, but soman. Notice that isopropanol isn’t scheduled at all, so I feel justified in asking if you were just confused or trying to be sneaky? Oh and by the way, most alcohol hand sanitizers are 70% isopropyl alcohol, not ethanol.
- wbl 9y agoI was confused. Apparently Belgium saw fit to restrict the export.
- rmrfrmrf 9y agoIt's needed for binary sarin. This info is readily available.
- scottie_m 9y agoPlease see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16898970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16898970 It is not the choke-point in that reaction either, while DF is. It also requires a trivial amount of easily produced or smuggled rubbing alcohol to make enough sarin to kill everyone in Syria. Isopropyl alone gets you nothing, and is easy to store and move around. Meanwhile... Methylphosphonyl difluoride is both reactive and corrosive. It is absorbed through skin and causes burns and mild nerve agent symptoms. It reacts with water producing HF fumes and methylphosphonic acid as a result. It is also capable of corroding glass. It has a boiling point of only 55.4 °C at normal atmospheric pressure, and thus a fairly high vapor pressure at room temperature. There’s a reason that Methylphosphonyl difluoride is class 1 controlled chemical weapons precursor, and you can buy rubbing alcohol anywhere.
- Tycho 9y ago^ this is why we should never trust news/current-affairs site that disables its comments section
- jeromegv 9y agoThere's more than enough forums to debunk weird/bad articles, starting with Twitter. Comments section tend to be filled with anonymous trolls fulls of conspiracy theories, I would prefer to see a rebunk from someone that has some kind of reputation within the field.
- Tycho 9y agoAnd sometimes a simple, straight-forward comment is all it takes to stop the propaganda effort dead in its tracks (hence why many such articles have the comment section mysteriously disabled, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-he... ). Leaving it to readers to go out and actively vet the information on some other 'forum' just allows the propaganda to spread further than it otherwise would.
- wybiral 9y agoA voice of reason can quickly be overshadowed by a wave of ignorance. The comments sections on most of the news articles I've seen, when they're up, are usually divisive noisy trolls.
- anoncoward111 9y agoI agree with you in principle (that it's likely this is for use as rubbing alcohol, not as an industrial precursor), but in theory, there is still something going on here. Number one, they are able to track the volume and destinations of the trade. It would be weird to see a large fluctuation in exports-- why would Syrian consumers suddenly begin demanding or abandoning their use of rubbing alcohol? Demand is most likely constant. Number two, the Belgians have already arrested and are criminally prosecuting the company executives who did not obtain the proper export license. Is this "bureaucratic heavy-handedness" (certainly possible), or do they have evidence that the chemical in question was delivered in such a large quantity that it is "fishy"?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- cfadvan 9y agoAccording to the United Nations, Syria imported 1,916,504 kilograms of "Propyl alcohol and isopropyl alcohol" in 2010, 1,705,420 kilograms in 2009, 926,139 kilograms in 2008, and so on... ...To quote another here. Isopropyl alcohol is not an organophosphate precursor. https://cyber.sci-hub.hk/MTAuMTAwMi9zbGN0LjIwMTcwMjc2Mw==/quagliano2018.pdf https://cyber.sci-hub.hk/MTAuMTAwMi9zbGN0LjIwMTcwMjc2Mw==/qu... Precursors of CW agents are chemicals which have relatively small molecules, that may be used for the synthesis of other toxic products such as organophosphorous pesticides.[1,2] Direct precursors of nerve agents are those chemicals that can be converted to nerve agents in one or two synthetic steps, and are those under strict surveillance by OPCW. Industrial com- pounds such as organophosphates (pesticides mainly), phos- gene, chlorine, and cyanide are precursors that are not difficult to obtain.[3] On the other side, synthesis of methylphosphono- fluoridates (G-agents) and V-agents is not direct because of the absence of a large-scale commercial source of the key organo- phosphorous precursors: methylphosphonyl dichloride (Me- POCl2) and methylphosphonyl difluoride (MePOF2). However, impure nerve agent could be easily synthesized, as it was in the case of terrorist attacks in Tokyo subway in Japan in 1995. Precursors for sarin, tabun, and G-series agents are sources of fluorine, usually bifluorides. Ammonium or Sodium bifluoride for example, is absolutely a precursor (although it has some non-essential, legitimate industrial uses) For sarin, you must have a source of fluorine atoms, so it can be sensible to control export of bifluoride compounds. While alcohol is used, it’s like trying to control the production of beer by interdicting water instead of malted barley. While malted barley has many uses, it’s not essential and its major use is fermentation. Water meanwhile, is essential and ubiquitous. The key precursors for organophosphates involve the donated fluorine; no fluorination, no organophosphate weapons. As a bonus the fluorine compounds used are dangerous, and imported/exported in much smaller quantities than alcohol. Without bifluorides, you can still have industry, medicine, etc. Without isopropyl you can’t even have hand sanitizer. Blackbagboys: Oh for sure, it’s hard to imagine why there would be high demand for the most common disinfectant in a war zone. That’s incredibly suspicious, and clearly points to the production of sarin. (/s) Come on, this blog isn’t talking about anything reasonable, it’s calling rubbing alcohol a CW precursor.
- JLK_121416 9y agoThis was a topic in the Belgian news a couple of days ago. The issue is not as much whether the isopropanol will be used for chemical warfare, nor if it should be regarded dangerous or if it is on a list with restricted substances, but more that these companies would/should have known that exporting it to Syria is a big risk given the current context. It was more of a moral question rather than a 'scientific' one. Tons of isopropanol were destroyed in Syria by UN workers when trying to destroy all chemical weapons and precursors.* *https://www.armscontrol.org/files/Panel2.1_Anelli_TuckerConference.pdf https://www.armscontrol.org/files/Panel2.1_Anelli_TuckerConf...
- mindslight 9y agoTons of isopropanol's brother, ethanol, are destroyed worldwide simply trying to cope with these warmongering propagandists.
- MisterTea 9y ago> but more that these companies would/should have known that exporting it to Syria is a big risk given the current context. The flip side is sending antiseptics such as isopropanol to a war torn country is akin to humanitarian aid.
- isoprophlex 9y agoAlso who needs a gazillion liters of isopropanol when a kilogram of sarin (which takes at most ~10L of isopropanol to make) is all you need to kill... well, everybody you would want to kill?
- kortex 9y agoIsopropanol is hardly the limiting reagent in this route, nor is it hard to produce by myriad ways. Hell, even thionyl chloride (still tons of legit uses) is more of a red flag than IPrOH. Something is definitely a bit goofy about this blog. Not saying attacks didn't happen, it's just that, from a chemical production point of view, iPrOH is a really odd choice to look at.
- valuearb 9y agoIt’s very clear that chemical weapons have been used in Syria, and the evidence is overwhelming that the Syrian government was behind the vast majority of the attacks. I know of at least one tech company that compiles photos of the attacks, geo and time stamped, and the photos are beyond disturbing.
- deleteme12345 9y agoNo, it's not "very clear" as the "intelligence" is 100% Twitter-based and zero actual autopsy has taken place, as no one actually died that day. Or so say the hospital staff.
- valuearb 9y agoNot sure which of the 70+ documented attacks you are referring to. And the White Helmets would disagree, and are less subject to Syrian governmental “persuasion” than doctors. There is a reason Assad’s government blocked inspectors from examining the latest claimed attack.
- deleteme12345 9y ago"The White Helmets" -- there's your problem. > There is a reason Assad’s government blocked inspectors from examining the latest claimed attack. That did not happen.
- blackbagboys 9y ago>> That did not happen. Counterpoint: It did happen. Only the country currently propping up the regime's genocidaires with all-out military support is claiming it was unspecified 'militants' who blocked the inspectors.
- freeflight 9y ago> Only the country currently propping up the regime's genocidaires with all-out military support is claiming it was unspecified 'militants' who blocked the inspectors. Actually, it's UN personnel that blocked the inspection from happening because it was them who came under attack and thus declared the situation too dangerous for the inspection team [0]. Neither Syria nor Russia had anything to do with preventing that inspection from happening. [0] https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg02_e_.pdf https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg02_e_....
- MisterTea 9y agoThis was my first thought as well. There are plenty of other legitimate uses for what amounts to rubbing alcohol. Especially when a war is on...
- k1m 9y agoGood to be sceptical of Bellingcat. Information on funding: https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/879036821954539520 https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/879036821954539520 Pulitzer prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh responded to attacks by Bellingcat here: https://www.alternet.org/media/seymour-hersh-syria-bombshell https://www.alternet.org/media/seymour-hersh-syria-bombshell
- secfirstmd 9y agoNot really. If you work in the NGO space closely you'll know that Bellingcats funders are pretty much run of the mill ones. Also, I'm a big Seymour Hersh fan but unfortunately he got made to look foolish with that article. Lots of what he said was implausible from the start and his major thesis have been globally dubunked. I suspect he was for once fed some bad sources.
- k1m 9y agoHappen to have any links on Seymour Hersh being "made to look foolish" with his article? Robert Fisk, also a highly respected journalist, was the first Western journalist to visit Douma after the recent bombing. His report casts doubt on the claims about what happened in Syria that led to the UK, US, and France to bomb without waiting for evidence. See https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-g...
- ttctciyf 9y agoThere's some footage[1] from One America News Network, which I gather is some kind of sub-Fox News outfit, of their reporter interviewing doctors at the same hospital Fisk writes about. They seem to tell pretty much the same story: on the day of the purported attack people were treated for dust inhalation, no-one died, a bunch of people suddenly appeared in the hospital shouting "chemical attack!" and spraying people with water, while filming themselves. Hospital staff joined in spraying water (as you would do) but no one exhibited symptoms of actual chemical weapons use. I've read reports that doctors who spoke to the press had been intimidated and threatened if they verified the attack story[2]. The people in the video don't look intimidated to me, but I'm no expert. I'm personally on the fence on this one, and haven't read in-depth either. But it's mighty strange to me seeing Fisk and a conservative cable news network on the same page on a mid-East controversy! 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9w8j-avq_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9w8j-avq_0 2: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/17/syria-crisis-medics-intimidated-over-douma-gas-attack https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/17/syria-crisis-m...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- hhfcvh 9y agoPutting isopropanol in the export control list is BS. That’s a precursor to everything - you might as well say: “we don’t like you so you’re not allowed to have industry”
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- swiley 9y agoOrganic synthesis is like hacking, someone skilled and determined to get somewhere will get there and there really isn't anything you can do to stop it. Regulating "precursors" to chemicals is probably a bad idea in general.
- varenc 9y agoI found this list of all the different sorts of isopropanol uses interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol#Uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol#Uses
- guilhas 9y agoSpecial note to: "Automotive: Isopropyl alcohol is a major ingredient in "gas dryer" fuel additives." Syria gets freezing temperatures in winter. Also 'sarin use' was added 19 April. And the guy added it to the introduction, but it was removed later with the comment "... dangerous molecules are often in part made from everyday chemicals as components."
- Theodores 9y agoAlthough this story is absurd it does show how the sanctions have been set out to cripple civilian life in Syria. Maybe they could ban shoe laces as they are used by the Assad regime, or maybe they could ban H2O since that could be used for making everything from sarin to nuclear weapons, hat would teach them. It is also interesting how this internet is connecting people with lies rather than people.
- reitanqild 9y agodhmo.org still exists and I still use it as a teaching resource. (If it isn't obvious, yes, I know. I use it to teach people to be critical to what they read.)
- dghughes 9y agoWhat about the scourge of hydroxic acid? I mean come on it's acid!
- tzahola 9y ago"sarin precursor" = isopropanol I use this very dangerous sarin precursor everyday as a hand sanitizer.
- semi-extrinsic 9y agoYou should mix it with glycerine though, unless you like your skin like I like my martinis.
- loceng 9y agoAnd if you all of a sudden ordered "96 tons" of it out of the blue? I think the issue being brought to light is contrast to normal export/import of it to this region?
- tzahola 9y ago96 tons is nothing. http://data.un.org/Data.aspx?q=isopropyl&d=ComTrade&f=_l1Code%3a30%3bcmdCode%3a290512 http://data.un.org/Data.aspx?q=isopropyl&d=ComTrade&f=_l1Cod... According to the United Nations, Syria imported 1,916,504 kilograms of "Propyl alcohol and isopropyl alcohol" in 2010, 1,705,420 kilograms in 2009, 926,139 kilograms in 2008, and so on...
- loceng 9y agoCool, well, so long as someone is keeping track and following up. Thank you for digging up the information.
- pps43 9y agoNaCl is chlorine precursor. Will Bellingcat track shipments of table salt or movements of sea water next?
- tajen 9y agoTo be consistent, let’s prevent their access to the sea.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- drewmol 9y agoHigh concentration isopropanol is also used in what's likely the most efficient method (at least where back yard chemistry is the only option) to produce hashish from large quantities of marijuana. It allows for quick processing into a much more condense, potent, less-perishable and comparibly easy to transport/smuggle product. Just a thought on what other Syrian industries[1] might demand such large amounts of isopropanol. Considering the large quantities, maybe some Syrians have been enlightened by a more efficient way to concentrate their vast supply of low-grade marijuana. [1]https://m.gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/amid-war-in-syria-hashish-business-booms-1.1868090 https://m.gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/amid-war-in-syria-has...