5 ms·

How IBM quietly pushed out 20,000 older workers

45 points by Deinos 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kazinator 8y ago
Counterpoint: The thing is, how can anyone who has stayed at IBM for 30 years be anything other than a deadweight who is just there to collect a paycheck? I mean, come on. IBM is kind of corporation where people go in hopes of slipping through the cracks and being forgotten (while the automatic payroll deposits keep coming). Can then not be pardoned for indulging in a little tree shaking? Employment at the same place until death isn't some kind of constitutional right.
- maltalex 8y ago
  > how can anyone who has stayed at IBM for 30 years be anything other than a deadweight who is just there to collect a paycheck? This is blatantly absurd. What makes you think that? According to the story, in general, older employees received good reviews but were discriminated against by a point system that gave an edge to new, young employees.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    I watched the whole thing and saw the scatter plot clearly. Though the points are negatively correlated with age, there isn't enough information to know whether that was unfair. Raw data like this cannot tell you that. For instance, say that 75% of the employees in some company are male. That by itself doesn't prove that there is a hiring bias against women. What does "good reviews" mean? Maybe the people getting the points have "great reviews".
    - maltalex 8y ago
      > there isn't enough information to know whether that was unfair How do you get from "we don't know if the reviews were fair" to "everyone who's worked for IBM for 30 years has to be a deadweight"?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - alexryan 8y ago
    > According to the story, in general, older employees received good reviews but were discriminated against by a point system that gave an edge to new, young employees. So what? Why would you choose to continue working for a company where you were discriminated against? If you have been working hard to continue growing your skills all this time, you will have no problem finding a better job at a less corrupt company.
    - kazinator 8y ago
      I can't agree with that; discrimination is a problem if it is real. That's like saying "Oh well, why would you want to go into a restaurant where the sign says 'no blacks', anyway" and not do anything about it.
  - sitepodmatt 8y ago
    Experience maybe. Longest IBMer I know did a ~10year stint across the world (IBM run many banks' IT, in part or in whole), it was cushy job apparently - 4x than he makes today doing a similar role, people wanted to hold on to those jobs as long as possible, he would sure be envious of someone holding it down for 30 years, juicy $s. I spoke an even older IBMer recently too, he talked of days of 1st class flights, 3 figure relocation packages, the parties etc.. again those days didn't last for decades, but if he did I'd guess he'd be hitting the ~35 year mark at IBM. Sure seems to me people rode that gravy train hard, unsurprising their shaking out some of it now especially if these long timers expect similar perks to the old days, probably similar to flight attendants on BA - the new generation are on 0hr contracts whilst the old generation had/maintain the most cushy number in flight attending - its easy to see why a CEO/CFO would favor new gen.
- ggm 8y ago
  One day, you'll be old. I hope the retained memory of the internet is there, to hold this post up for fresh air. Because it won't sit well, on your older shoulders.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    That's not that far off: 47 already. If the age discrimination is real, sure it bothers me.
- fractallyte 8y ago
  Looks like people have a problem accepting the idea of 'counterpoint'... This is just as valid an argument as anything else in this discussion. Large organizations do tend to collect dead weight, especially when the job's well paid, and more comfortable year upon year.
  - PeterStuer 8y ago
    Dead weight might just as well come in the form of preppy young MBA's rather than battle hardened experienced engineers.
    - kazinator 8y ago
      Yes, and then 30 years later, that no-longer-preppy-young MBA is still there.
harry8 8y ago
Working for ibm is clearly hasadarous to your ability. If we believe ibm they're telling us just how much ibm sucks. Employer of last resort, do not hire.
PeterStuer 8y ago
Ageism is still the number 1 discrimination in the IT/software industry by a mile. But since it is not as 'sexy', 'Politically Correct' or appealing to the right 'Consumer Demographic', it gets mostly the silent treatment.
- maltalex 8y ago
  I find this explanation hard to swallow. It sounds too simple. These are 40-55 year olds we’re talking about, most of which are experienced, savvy and have a solid network of friends and colleagues in the industry. In most other industries, these are the most valued employees. Look at lawyers, doctors, and even engineers in other fields such as civil engineering. Are their 50 year olds somehow different? Is their “problem” somehow sexier? These fields treat their older employees as experienced authority figures while our treats them as deadweight as evident in this very thread.

45 points by Deinos 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Counterpoint: The thing is, how can anyone who has stayed at IBM for 30 years be anything other than a deadweight who is just there to collect a paycheck? I mean, come on. IBM is kind of corporation where people go in hopes of slipping through the cracks and being forgotten (while the automatic payroll deposits keep coming). Can then not be pardoned for indulging in a little tree shaking? Employment at the same place until death isn't some kind of constitutional right.

maltalex 8y ago
> how can anyone who has stayed at IBM for 30 years be anything other than a deadweight who is just there to collect a paycheck? This is blatantly absurd. What makes you think that? According to the story, in general, older employees received good reviews but were discriminated against by a point system that gave an edge to new, young employees.
- kazinator 8y ago
  I watched the whole thing and saw the scatter plot clearly. Though the points are negatively correlated with age, there isn't enough information to know whether that was unfair. Raw data like this cannot tell you that. For instance, say that 75% of the employees in some company are male. That by itself doesn't prove that there is a hiring bias against women. What does "good reviews" mean? Maybe the people getting the points have "great reviews".
  - maltalex 8y ago
    > there isn't enough information to know whether that was unfair How do you get from "we don't know if the reviews were fair" to "everyone who's worked for IBM for 30 years has to be a deadweight"?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- alexryan 8y ago
  > According to the story, in general, older employees received good reviews but were discriminated against by a point system that gave an edge to new, young employees. So what? Why would you choose to continue working for a company where you were discriminated against? If you have been working hard to continue growing your skills all this time, you will have no problem finding a better job at a less corrupt company.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    I can't agree with that; discrimination is a problem if it is real. That's like saying "Oh well, why would you want to go into a restaurant where the sign says 'no blacks', anyway" and not do anything about it.
- sitepodmatt 8y ago
  Experience maybe. Longest IBMer I know did a ~10year stint across the world (IBM run many banks' IT, in part or in whole), it was cushy job apparently - 4x than he makes today doing a similar role, people wanted to hold on to those jobs as long as possible, he would sure be envious of someone holding it down for 30 years, juicy $s. I spoke an even older IBMer recently too, he talked of days of 1st class flights, 3 figure relocation packages, the parties etc.. again those days didn't last for decades, but if he did I'd guess he'd be hitting the ~35 year mark at IBM. Sure seems to me people rode that gravy train hard, unsurprising their shaking out some of it now especially if these long timers expect similar perks to the old days, probably similar to flight attendants on BA - the new generation are on 0hr contracts whilst the old generation had/maintain the most cushy number in flight attending - its easy to see why a CEO/CFO would favor new gen.
ggm 8y ago
One day, you'll be old. I hope the retained memory of the internet is there, to hold this post up for fresh air. Because it won't sit well, on your older shoulders.
- kazinator 8y ago
  That's not that far off: 47 already. If the age discrimination is real, sure it bothers me.
fractallyte 8y ago
Looks like people have a problem accepting the idea of 'counterpoint'... This is just as valid an argument as anything else in this discussion. Large organizations do tend to collect dead weight, especially when the job's well paid, and more comfortable year upon year.
- PeterStuer 8y ago
  Dead weight might just as well come in the form of preppy young MBA's rather than battle hardened experienced engineers.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    Yes, and then 30 years later, that no-longer-preppy-young MBA is still there.

harry8 8y ago

Working for ibm is clearly hasadarous to your ability. If we believe ibm they're telling us just how much ibm sucks. Employer of last resort, do not hire.

PeterStuer 8y ago

Ageism is still the number 1 discrimination in the IT/software industry by a mile. But since it is not as 'sexy', 'Politically Correct' or appealing to the right 'Consumer Demographic', it gets mostly the silent treatment.

maltalex 8y ago
I find this explanation hard to swallow. It sounds too simple. These are 40-55 year olds we’re talking about, most of which are experienced, savvy and have a solid network of friends and colleagues in the industry. In most other industries, these are the most valued employees. Look at lawyers, doctors, and even engineers in other fields such as civil engineering. Are their 50 year olds somehow different? Is their “problem” somehow sexier? These fields treat their older employees as experienced authority figures while our treats them as deadweight as evident in this very thread.