6 ms·

> unreliable Really? It's the only messaging format that works without a data connection and is an absolute godsend when I'm out camping, rural biking, or at l

> unreliable Really? It's the only messaging format that works without a data connection and is an absolute godsend when I'm out camping, rural biking, or at large sporting events and the towers are absolutely swamped. I'm in a situation at least once a month where the only reliable communication method is SMS.

nmcfarl 9y ago
Wow - infrastructure varies. Here in Eastern Oregon the pattern is pretty reliably that data and signal drop out at the same time, at least on Verizon which is the carrier with the best coverage. I really thought the pattern that you describe, which I've seen plenty of in the past, had just died out over time and tower upgrades.
- megaman22 9y ago
  I routinely see SMSs fail to deliver, deliver multiple times, deliver weirdly out of order, or deliver at random times, hours or days after they were sent. And this is in a relatively well-served area fifty miles out of Boston.
  - sli 9y ago
    I still have the issue where MMS seems to just sometimes not work for days or even weeks on end, then suddenly start working again. No OS updates and no APN settings changes in the meantime. Normally it's not an issue, since I don't really use SMS all that much anymore, but my mother and I tend to send pictures back and forth a lot and she still uses SMS. SMS itself usually works fine, but MMS is particularly bad.
- reiichiroh 9y ago
  It all depends if there's a 2G network to fall back on if 3G+ data goes down. Most places have shut down their 2G.
  - djrogers 9y ago
    >Most places have shut down their 2G. Citation? I haven't seen this to be the case in California - at least on Verizon.
    - yggda 9y ago
      There was a big story about it when ATT shut down their 2G network in SF since MUNI used that to report their locations. http://sfist.com/2017/01/06/nextmuni_glitch_problem.php http://sfist.com/2017/01/06/nextmuni_glitch_problem.php
    - joecool1029 9y ago
      Only AT&T shut down 2G. T-Mobile reiterated recently that their 2G network will probably be shut down after their 3G one, since it hardly uses any spectrum.
      - reiichiroh 9y ago
        With places that have shutdown 2G, there is no "voice only" network anymore since 3G is required for the voice traffic.
        joecool1029 9y ago
        T-Mobile and AT&T have very different planning. AT&T shut down their 2G because it mostly ran on 850mhz and this was needed for LTE and their legacy band 5 WCDMA (hspa) network. T-Mobile mostly ran its 2G on 1900mhz, but had beefy midband spectrum holdings there and in AWS (and AWS-3) for most markets. Since you can run GSM down in like 200khz or so it's not a huge deal to have a small slice allocated to legacy voice fallback. You can't do that with 3G... you can thin it down but it's still going to need 3.8mhz or so. (T-Mobile has experience thinning HSPA down prior to the MetroPCS CDMA shutdown... which they had legacy CDMA running in guard bands) Verizon and Sprint used to mostly be on CDMA-based technology. So their 3G 'EVDO' can't do calls.. it needs cdma2k layer to go back to, or full voLTE support. VZW has its shit together on voLTE, sprint will probably never launch volte at this rate.
- s0rce 9y ago
  Same with Eastern WA and CA, you basically just drop behind a big hill/mountain or into a valley and lose all service. I still sometimes use texts since I can turn off data to save power and still send SMS.
vetinari 9y ago
Unreliable in the sense, that it is on the discretion of the network, whether it will drop your message somewhere in transit, without letting you know. Just like UDP.
- blibble 9y ago
  SMS supports delivery notifications, I think I've been using them for almost, if not 20 years I get a little display under the message saying 'delivered' in the standard android SMS app
  - vetinari 9y ago
    That's another message that may or may not be lost, if it is checked at all. I've got my lesson about SMS reliability few years ago: I've bought a bus ticket via SMS, it was never delivered, but I got charged for it and the operator claimed that it was sent, when disputed. Except I've never received it, and couldn't ride the bus without it.
    - blibble 9y ago
      > That's another message that may or may not be lost, if it is checked at all. that's a general problem with acknowledgements and is not specific to SMS TCP is exactly the same
      - hueving 9y ago
        But tcp detects this and recovers or explicitly kills the connection.
  - cbhl 9y ago
    Sometimes carriers will send a "delivered" even though it only made it as far as a cell tower (and not an actual phone)
- simias 9y ago
  Is it a practical issue where you are? In France I can't remember the last time I've had issues with undelivered text messages and I use them quite a lot (I generally use the cheapest plan I can find which usually doesn't contain data, so I default to texts). For important messages I'll expect an explicit confirmation anyway, it's not enough that the message reaches the recipient's phone, they also have to read it! My main problem with texts is lack of privacy which is why I'm slowly pivoting towards Signal instead.
riffic 9y ago
SMS is a best-effort protocol; that is inherently unreliable.
tzakrajs 9y ago
Business class SMS is quite reliable.
defertoreptar 9y ago
Dropped SMS messages, particularly between Android and and iPhones, have caused some catastrophes at my work. I no longer trust them enough to use them to communicate with staff.
- Anderkent 9y ago
  Isn't that usually because iMessage doesn't actually send SMS if it thinks it can send something else?

nmcfarl 9y ago

Wow - infrastructure varies. Here in Eastern Oregon the pattern is pretty reliably that data and signal drop out at the same time, at least on Verizon which is the carrier with the best coverage. I really thought the pattern that you describe, which I've seen plenty of in the past, had just died out over time and tower upgrades.

megaman22 9y ago
I routinely see SMSs fail to deliver, deliver multiple times, deliver weirdly out of order, or deliver at random times, hours or days after they were sent. And this is in a relatively well-served area fifty miles out of Boston.
- sli 9y ago
  I still have the issue where MMS seems to just sometimes not work for days or even weeks on end, then suddenly start working again. No OS updates and no APN settings changes in the meantime. Normally it's not an issue, since I don't really use SMS all that much anymore, but my mother and I tend to send pictures back and forth a lot and she still uses SMS. SMS itself usually works fine, but MMS is particularly bad.
reiichiroh 9y ago
It all depends if there's a 2G network to fall back on if 3G+ data goes down. Most places have shut down their 2G.
- djrogers 9y ago
  >Most places have shut down their 2G. Citation? I haven't seen this to be the case in California - at least on Verizon.
  - yggda 9y ago
    There was a big story about it when ATT shut down their 2G network in SF since MUNI used that to report their locations. http://sfist.com/2017/01/06/nextmuni_glitch_problem.php http://sfist.com/2017/01/06/nextmuni_glitch_problem.php
  - joecool1029 9y ago
    Only AT&T shut down 2G. T-Mobile reiterated recently that their 2G network will probably be shut down after their 3G one, since it hardly uses any spectrum.
    - reiichiroh 9y ago
      With places that have shutdown 2G, there is no "voice only" network anymore since 3G is required for the voice traffic.
      - joecool1029 9y ago
        T-Mobile and AT&T have very different planning. AT&T shut down their 2G because it mostly ran on 850mhz and this was needed for LTE and their legacy band 5 WCDMA (hspa) network. T-Mobile mostly ran its 2G on 1900mhz, but had beefy midband spectrum holdings there and in AWS (and AWS-3) for most markets. Since you can run GSM down in like 200khz or so it's not a huge deal to have a small slice allocated to legacy voice fallback. You can't do that with 3G... you can thin it down but it's still going to need 3.8mhz or so. (T-Mobile has experience thinning HSPA down prior to the MetroPCS CDMA shutdown... which they had legacy CDMA running in guard bands) Verizon and Sprint used to mostly be on CDMA-based technology. So their 3G 'EVDO' can't do calls.. it needs cdma2k layer to go back to, or full voLTE support. VZW has its shit together on voLTE, sprint will probably never launch volte at this rate.
s0rce 9y ago
Same with Eastern WA and CA, you basically just drop behind a big hill/mountain or into a valley and lose all service. I still sometimes use texts since I can turn off data to save power and still send SMS.

vetinari 9y ago

Unreliable in the sense, that it is on the discretion of the network, whether it will drop your message somewhere in transit, without letting you know. Just like UDP.

blibble 9y ago
SMS supports delivery notifications, I think I've been using them for almost, if not 20 years I get a little display under the message saying 'delivered' in the standard android SMS app
- vetinari 9y ago
  That's another message that may or may not be lost, if it is checked at all. I've got my lesson about SMS reliability few years ago: I've bought a bus ticket via SMS, it was never delivered, but I got charged for it and the operator claimed that it was sent, when disputed. Except I've never received it, and couldn't ride the bus without it.
  - blibble 9y ago
    > That's another message that may or may not be lost, if it is checked at all. that's a general problem with acknowledgements and is not specific to SMS TCP is exactly the same
    - hueving 9y ago
      But tcp detects this and recovers or explicitly kills the connection.
- cbhl 9y ago
  Sometimes carriers will send a "delivered" even though it only made it as far as a cell tower (and not an actual phone)
simias 9y ago
Is it a practical issue where you are? In France I can't remember the last time I've had issues with undelivered text messages and I use them quite a lot (I generally use the cheapest plan I can find which usually doesn't contain data, so I default to texts). For important messages I'll expect an explicit confirmation anyway, it's not enough that the message reaches the recipient's phone, they also have to read it! My main problem with texts is lack of privacy which is why I'm slowly pivoting towards Signal instead.

riffic 9y ago

SMS is a best-effort protocol; that is inherently unreliable.

tzakrajs 9y ago

Business class SMS is quite reliable.

defertoreptar 9y ago

Dropped SMS messages, particularly between Android and and iPhones, have caused some catastrophes at my work. I no longer trust them enough to use them to communicate with staff.

Anderkent 9y ago
Isn't that usually because iMessage doesn't actually send SMS if it thinks it can send something else?