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This led me down a rabbit hole of ancient Roman pricing information! Turns out that a pair of purple silk pants (it seems purple dye was reserved only for silk)

This led me down a rabbit hole of ancient Roman pricing information! Turns out that a pair of purple silk pants (it seems purple dye was reserved only for silk) was actually closer to 2000x more expensive than standard (wool) pants. Also, the penalty for commoners wearing it was death, so there's that.

Retra 8y ago
Similar thing occurred in imperial China. You could get killed/imprisoned for wearing yellow.
ronald_raygun 8y ago
Oh, I'd like to learn more about this. Do you have any good references?
dfee 8y ago
It’s like being dropped back into my Latin classes. The history component is great, and by far the best part of taking 4 years of it in high school.
andrepd 8y ago
> the penalty for commoners wearing it was death Is that right? I seem to think it was a myth and there was never such a law (at least enforced).
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Maybe it was a heuristic for theft? As in, "as a commoner, there's no way in hell you could legally get your hands on a pair of these, so you must have stolen them from someone else".
  - dghf 8y ago
    There were actually laws, in many different times and places, know generally as "sumptuary laws". Wikipedia has what looks like a good overview: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law It doesn't seem to say much about actual enforcement, other than the lack of it for Louis XIII's decrees, and the repeated (and apparently ineffective) calls for stricter enforcement of the English laws.
zachrose 8y ago
Let’s see, $10 is enough to pick from a few dresses at Walmart[1]. A haute couture gown might cost $100k[2]. It’s not apples to apples but that’s still a difference of 10,000X. [1] https://www.walmart.com/browse/clothing/womens-dresses/5438_133162_3074670 https://www.walmart.com/browse/clothing/womens-dresses/5438_... [2] https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/who-wears-paris-haute-couture-very-few-apparently-20100709-1041u.html https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/who-wears-paris-hau...
- croon 8y ago
  But that pricing gap is almost entirely uncoupled from material cost. They make them by hand (by choice), and of course use the best materials, but a cashmere shirt at H&M is very cheap. Brands are priced out of reach of common folk, but materials and types of clothing aren't.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
>Therefore, the dye can be collected either by "milking" the snails, which is more labour-intensive but is a renewable resource, or by collecting and destructively crushing the snails. David Jacoby remarks that "twelve thousand snails of Murex brandaris yield no more than 1.4 g of pure dye, enough to colour only the trim of a single garment."[14] (from Wikipedia, Tirian Purple // It's my understanding that it was a badge of the senate, so wearing it would be like impersonation of a senator. Or worse, impersonation of the Emperor. Snail Milker isn't a job one hears much of. Many people will have heard of Lydia from the New Testament of the Holy Bible, who is referred to as a seller of purple, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_of_Thyatira https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_of_Thyatira.
- three14 8y ago
  I am suspicious of the 12,000 snail number. I see that people nowadays who make a similar dye from snails called tekhelet need around 30 snails for each yarn they dye, which I would guess would extrapolate to the 12,000 being for an entire garment.

Retra 8y ago

Similar thing occurred in imperial China. You could get killed/imprisoned for wearing yellow.

ronald_raygun 8y ago

Oh, I'd like to learn more about this. Do you have any good references?

dfee 8y ago

It’s like being dropped back into my Latin classes. The history component is great, and by far the best part of taking 4 years of it in high school.

andrepd 8y ago

> the penalty for commoners wearing it was death Is that right? I seem to think it was a myth and there was never such a law (at least enforced).

TeMPOraL 8y ago
Maybe it was a heuristic for theft? As in, "as a commoner, there's no way in hell you could legally get your hands on a pair of these, so you must have stolen them from someone else".
- dghf 8y ago
  There were actually laws, in many different times and places, know generally as "sumptuary laws". Wikipedia has what looks like a good overview: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law It doesn't seem to say much about actual enforcement, other than the lack of it for Louis XIII's decrees, and the repeated (and apparently ineffective) calls for stricter enforcement of the English laws.

zachrose 8y ago

Let’s see, $10 is enough to pick from a few dresses at Walmart[1]. A haute couture gown might cost $100k[2]. It’s not apples to apples but that’s still a difference of 10,000X. [1] https://www.walmart.com/browse/clothing/womens-dresses/5438_133162_3074670 https://www.walmart.com/browse/clothing/womens-dresses/5438_... [2] https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/who-wears-paris-haute-couture-very-few-apparently-20100709-1041u.html https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/who-wears-paris-hau...

croon 8y ago
But that pricing gap is almost entirely uncoupled from material cost. They make them by hand (by choice), and of course use the best materials, but a cashmere shirt at H&M is very cheap. Brands are priced out of reach of common folk, but materials and types of clothing aren't.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

>Therefore, the dye can be collected either by "milking" the snails, which is more labour-intensive but is a renewable resource, or by collecting and destructively crushing the snails. David Jacoby remarks that "twelve thousand snails of Murex brandaris yield no more than 1.4 g of pure dye, enough to colour only the trim of a single garment."[14] (from Wikipedia, Tirian Purple // It's my understanding that it was a badge of the senate, so wearing it would be like impersonation of a senator. Or worse, impersonation of the Emperor. Snail Milker isn't a job one hears much of. Many people will have heard of Lydia from the New Testament of the Holy Bible, who is referred to as a seller of purple, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_of_Thyatira https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_of_Thyatira.

three14 8y ago
I am suspicious of the 12,000 snail number. I see that people nowadays who make a similar dye from snails called tekhelet need around 30 snails for each yarn they dye, which I would guess would extrapolate to the 12,000 being for an entire garment.