14 ms·

The Quest for the Next Billion-Dollar Color

470 points by relham 8y ago

Abishek_Muthian 8y ago
Not to nitpick, > Raised in Chennai, on the southeastern coast of India > After getting his doctorate in chemistry at the Indian Institute of Technology at Madras Madras is just the colonial name for Chennai, which is currently the name of the city and the capital of the sate - Tamilnadu. Wonderful article, we've taken the colors for granted; Subramanian didn't and I'm glad that it has rewarded him.
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  IIT Madras is the name of the institute, regardless of the name change of the city it is located in.
- boundlessdreamz 8y ago
  The article is right. It is Indian Institute of Technology, Madras (1) and not Indian Institute of Technology, Chennai. "Madras" above is part of the institute's name and it would take an amendment of the IIT act to rename it but I don't think it will happen. 1. https://www.iitm.ac.in/ https://www.iitm.ac.in/
macintux 8y ago
When I was a kid, I was remarkably incurious. Reasonably smart, I'd like to think, but it never really occurred to me that everything around me had to be invented by someone. The thought that creating a safe, lasting red pigment could be sufficiently difficult as to be worth millions or billions of dollars is astonishing. To all the people who've made my world possible, I apologize for my apathy, and I'll do better.
- dugluak 8y ago
  In that case you might appreciate this quote by Steve Jobs "Everything around you that you call life, was made up by people that were no smarter than you"
  - corpMaverick 8y ago
    True if you are Steve Jobs I suppose.
    - nojvek 8y ago
      Most brains have relatively equal number of neurons. So ... most things were created by creatures with equal computing power as you.
- starpilot 8y ago
  This is pretty much all materials science. Vast amounts of work goes into developing new alloys, testing them, analyzing their properties. The consumer just knows his laptop casing is "aluminum."
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Or that their backpack or travel kit is lighter or that their jacket keeps them drier. As someone who does (or at least aspires to) a fair bit of hiking and backpacking, and did more in the past, I'm very aware of the degree to which materials--including those based on traditional fabrics like wool--have really improved.
    - nikanj 8y ago
      It’s the cumulative nature of progress that really propels humanity forward. Someone made 10% better tools, so I can make 10% better products - which are the 10% better tools for someone else.
      - tajen 8y ago
        When we made a 10% better linux I doubled my sales. There’s really a compounding effect. When someone improves Spring Boot or Node/Express, we can publish dozens of new websites to address tinier needs – problems that wouldn’t even be addressed in the past.
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  One of the interesting ways I found out about this was in a history class that was talking about "royal" fabrics. These were fabrics that only royalty could own. And while there was the general "lets make a rule to distinguish us from the common people" there was also that challenge that some colors were so rare because the pigments were only available to make them in very small quantities. As a young man it amazed me that people had fights over what color clothes you could wear or that purple pants would be 10x the expense of white or grey pants.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    We still have arguments about fabric and color. White at a wedding? A scandal. Rainbow shirt at a rally? Could get you beat up.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      Or embraced, depending on what the rally is about.
  - gervase 8y ago
    This led me down a rabbit hole of ancient Roman pricing information! Turns out that a pair of purple silk pants (it seems purple dye was reserved only for silk) was actually closer to 2000x more expensive than standard (wool) pants. Also, the penalty for commoners wearing it was death, so there's that.
    - Retra 8y ago
      Similar thing occurred in imperial China. You could get killed/imprisoned for wearing yellow.
    - ronald_raygun 8y ago
      Oh, I'd like to learn more about this. Do you have any good references?
    - dfee 8y ago
      It’s like being dropped back into my Latin classes. The history component is great, and by far the best part of taking 4 years of it in high school.
- lifeisstillgood 8y ago
  This feeling was the reason i started https://github.com/mikadosoftware/importantexperiments4kids https://github.com/mikadosoftware/importantexperiments4kids but it stalled (apathy/time). well kinda - i have recently worked out how the measuring the moons distance worked - aristarchus over 2000 years ago got heliocentric and distances - impressive. Just working through how we got here, the technology and the inventions, and you do see the fragility of all we have. I also recommend The Knowledge by Lewis Dartnell, and How to defend your castle by William Gurstelle, and there is a youtube channel "primitive technology" which is kind of amazing if not wholly down this road
  - H-S-Faraday 8y ago
    This is a cool idea.
  - dosforever 8y ago
    Primitive technology is pretty great, having a video format that shows everything step-by-step really reflects the "aha" moment that comes with interesting inventions.
- FooHentai 8y ago
  I don't remember having that realization, but I do remember realizing that whomever created a thing always had a particular purpose in mind when doing so. That prompted me to spend more time considering the intentions behind something first, and as a result understanding came much quicker. This applies especially well in computer sciences, but it extends to all things man-made. Even beyond that if you're religious, I guess.
- mozey 8y ago
  Invented or discovered?
- hokus 8y ago
  I fear this apathy was also someones invention.
- gr3yh47 8y ago
  As a Christian, this is kind of the reason I'm so glad for Justification before God by faith in Christ alone and not by works. I've never for a moment given God all the thanks he deserves for what He's given me. Color is one easy example - what a wonderful, beautiful gift that I've not thanked Him for, for the vast majority of my life. I constantly fall short of giving Him the honor he deserves.
  - discussedbefore 8y ago
    Did you miss Silicon Valley season 5 episode 4? ;)
  - ChristianBundy 8y ago
    I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but generally when you reply to someone it's expected that your content has something to do with the parent comment (or the topic in general). I hope you'll stay to discuss this topic (and others!) but I think you may get a better response from a more worship-oriented forum. Good luck!
    - nojvek 8y ago
      Sure, a certain thing could be made by another human, but what made that other human? All human cultures throughout history, humans have believed in some concept of God. The idea that the unexplained can be explained with an omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely-powerful being. Usually it’s based on some human form. It brings humility that there is still so much we can’t do and don’t know. Just as numbers become so large that we can’t fit it in our heads, we attribute the symbol infinity for such numbers, God is a natural concept for the human mind. I assume for most in HN, their idea of the infinity is the universe operating by the laws of physics, making the experiencable universe possible.
      - gr3yh47 8y ago
        As Paul put it in Romans: >For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Thank God for Christ, to redeem us from our lack of thanks and honor to God!
apotheothesomai 8y ago
They could invent it, but to most of us men, it's just going to look like a pre-existing red. We don't do color distinctions very well. We've got bright red, pale red, and in-between.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  You'd probably notice if your five year old Ferrari faded to a pink. > Red 254, aka Ferrari red, for example, is safe and popular, but it’s also carbon-based, leaving it susceptible to fading in the rain or the heat.
  - TwelveNights 8y ago
    For something like this though, your Ferrari owner would probably not mind paying to give it a repainting every few years.
    - tempestn 8y ago
      Actually, exotic car owners/buyers tend to be obsessed about keeping the original paint. It's a rare Ferrari owner who would be willing to have his car repainted at all.
- npongratz 8y ago
  Indeed. Tetrachromacy is real, and men are unlikely to enjoy the superpower: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140905-the-women-with-super-human-vision http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140905-the-women-with-supe...
  - giggles_giggles 8y ago
    Tetrachromacy is real but vanishingly rare. However, I've read before that women have more bars and cones in their eyes than men & therefore better color reception, without being tetrachromatic.
    - 8y ago
sgillen 8y ago
Very cool how the search for a material for use in computing led to a better blue pigment. Reminds me of all the technologies developed during the space race or for the military that wound up being use in every day applications.
Aardwolf 8y ago
Is the missing stable red pigment the reason why red clothes give off their color in the laundry much easier than the other colors?
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  Clothing is usually dyed, rather than inked or painted. Some dyes are better at attaching to fibers than others, and some synthetic polymer fibers are notoriously hard to dye. But on the other hand, some dyes diffuse into certain plastics very easily, and then never come out. It depends on the chemistry. The only pigmented clothes I am aware of are "dirt shirts" that are infused with strongly colored soil. The reddish orange color is undoubtedly iron oxide, and they will fade with every washing, because there is no binder to keep the pigment attached to the fiber.
  - gwern 8y ago
    One exception is Japanese kakishibu/kaki-shibu: fermented unripe persimmons, creates a sort of rusty brown red which darkens over time, heavily used in traditional Japanese clothing for water-resistance and fire protection. People still like to use it for paper, shirts, and home-made or high-end jeans (eg https://www.weargustin.com/store/6683 https://www.weargustin.com/store/6683 )
npunt 8y ago
> For decades, red Lego bricks contained cadmium, a carcinogen. Ack. From another article [1] > One toy to watch out for? “Lego bricks from the ‘70s and ‘80s are the big fail,” Andrew Turner, the study’s lead researcher, told the BBC. > Roar Rude Trangbæk, a spokesperson for Lego, told The Sun that in regards to hazardous elements, the company “phased that material out back in 1979 to 1981.” Apparently its both yellow & red bricks. From a forum post [2] about the phase-out: > Not much information has ever been given out by TLG in regards to the switch from LEGO "with" Cadmium to LEGO without it, except that TLG switched over to Cadmium free LEGO in 1973. However, that doesn't really say a lot. Just look at the switch from old gray to new gray that started in 2003. It took many years for the switch to be complete (old gray elements were still found in LEGO sets for many years). So a 1973 switchover likely only means that the Bayer Corporation stopped sending TLG red and yellow plastic pellets. As for what was still in the TLG inventory.... my guess would be that it continued to find its' way into LEGO sets for several years until the supply of old red/yellow pellets was finally depleted. Makes me a bit wary to pass those down to my kids. [1] https://offspring.lifehacker.com/your-old-legos-might-be-toxic-1822608757 https://offspring.lifehacker.com/your-old-legos-might-be-tox... [2] https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/77306-cadmium-in-lego-bricks/ https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/773...
- mmagin 8y ago
  Not only is it fairly well encapsulated in plastic, the cadmium sulfide / cadmium selenide pigments are far less toxic when consumed orally than say the old lead carbonate pigment (known for being used as a white paint pigment) due to its poor solubility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_pigments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_pigments If the kids are old enough not to put legos in their mouth and choke on them and can be encouraged to wash their hands before meals, I wouldn't worry too much, personally.
- ateesdalejr 8y ago
  I remember biting on my red LEGO bricks as a kid to remove those ones that would get stuck. Never knew that they contained cadmium 'til now.
ipsum2 8y ago
I first learned about Yttrium blue from the new AMD Radeon Pro GPUs that are painted with them. They're really remarkably saturated (Google image search Radeon Pro WX 7100 for an example)
- princekolt 8y ago
  Wow those are beautiful! Every day I find a new reason to like AMD a bit more.
  - swarnie_ 8y ago
    Clearly you're not a shareholder.
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  Just keep in mind your monitor really cannot accurately display the colour.
  - 2bitencryption 8y ago
    a bit ironic, considering your monitor may very well be powered by that impossibly-blue GPU :)
gondolgames 8y ago
Is there a museum for these extreme colors? (Like the blue in the article or the pink in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM)
- pg_bot 8y ago
  There is the Forbes pigment collection at Harvard's art museum. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/09/a-wall-of-color-a-window-to-the-past/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/09/a-wall-of-col...
scythe 8y ago
I'm a little confused at the safety claims. Manganese is a cumulative poison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganism I'm not really qualified to quantify the toxicity of metals, but the chemists I've known are usually very careful when they have to work with manganese.
- tathougies 8y ago
  Typically, the toxicity of metals depend on how they're structured within molecules. For example, inorganic copper is cytotoxic, while organic copper is necessary for survival. In this case, the yttrium blue has a unique chemical structure. More so, I believe they use Manganese oxide to create the color. Manganese oxide is not dangerous, as far as we know, at least. It's a somewhat common food additive. According to [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese(II)_oxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese(II)_oxide), we consume tons of it per year. Ultimately, what typically matters is how a molecule interacts with the body, not necessarily how each component interacts. By that measure, Cyanide (which is just carbon + nitrogen) ought to have no ill effect, while cuprous oxide ought to be poisonous.
- refurb 8y ago
  Manganese isn't that toxic of a metal. Water purification tablets often contain potassium permangante. And that's safe to drink!
lanius 8y ago
Where can I view these brilliant colors in person? Apparently these colors are so vibrant, they cannot be accurately displayed on monitors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM
- gitgreen 8y ago
  Request a sample of Blue 10G513 from Shepherd Color Co or purchase a Radeon Pro WX. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-radeon-pro-wx-series,32324.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-radeon-pro-wx-series,3... Supposedly Crayola's "Bluetiful" color was inspired by YInMn but it's not made with the material.
- kristianp 8y ago
  You could try contacting Derivan: https://www.derivan.com.au/derivan-products/yin-min-blue.html https://www.derivan.com.au/derivan-products/yin-min-blue.htm...
- splintercell 8y ago
  One of the most unique blues I've seen is 'Baystate Blue' it's a fountain pen ink [1], cameras and screen doesn't capture how beautiful this ink is. This ink is also highly controversial in fountain pen community because it is accused of destroying fountain pens. (Also you drop it on plastic, and you'd need to use bleach to get it off), but man I love this ink. 1. http://www.inksandpens.com/content/images/2015/09/IMG_5211.jpg http://www.inksandpens.com/content/images/2015/09/IMG_5211.j...
mmagin 8y ago
One interesting aspect of red pigment usage that I feel this article could have explained better is why it fares poorest under the sun: of all the color pigments, it absorbs the most of the short-wavelength (high energy) light. Now, you'll naturally think, "but what about black?" Well, most of the black pigments we use are very chemically stable materials, like powdered carbon or some iron oxide compounds. (Once you know this you'll suddenly start to see how a disproportionate share of red cars have failing paint -- particularly after sometime around the early 1980s when the use of Cadmium pigments started to fall out of favor for most uses.)
- cnasc 8y ago
  > (Once you know this you'll suddenly start to see how a disproportionate share of red cars have failing paint -- particularly after sometime around the early 1980s when the use of Cadmium pigments started to fall out of favor for most uses.) I believe this has largely been remediated by using a clear coat over solid colors. Older cars had single-stage paint for non-metallic colors, so there would be nothing on top of your nice red paint to protect it. Modern clear coats typically block UV light, so the color should last much longer (long enough that your car will be all scratched and swirled well before the color fades).
  - tesseract 8y ago
    The auto industry also pushed for development of new red pigments - Pyrrole Red is considered quite lightfast, but only became available starting in the late 80s. I regularly see 90s era red cars on the road with good looking paint these days. (Yes, the clear coat I'm sure is a factor as well.) http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/10/pollock_cuts.html http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/10/pollock_cuts.html
uptown 8y ago
The world of colors (and who "owns" them) is both odd and fascinating. For instance, Vanta Black can only be used by one artist - Anish Kapoor: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/one-artist-has-monopoly-worlds-blackest-black-pigment-180958264/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/one-artist-has-mon... In response to that rule, another artist created the pinkest pink and a competing black ... available for anyone in the world to use -- except Kapoor: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/artist-only-person-banned-using-worlds-pinkest-pink-180961464/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/artist-only-person... http://www.konbini.com/us/inspiration/stuart-semple-new-vantablack-paint/ http://www.konbini.com/us/inspiration/stuart-semple-new-vant...
- gridscomputing 8y ago
  it truly is THE PINKEST.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- cwkoss 8y ago
  Anish Kapoor seems like a huge scumbag
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    It's a bit of a gimmick. Vantablack is a highly specialised coating intended for use in precision optical equipment. It isn't really usable as an art material because it's prohibitively expensive, it needs to be applied under laboratory conditions and it's extremely fragile. It's considered a dual-use technology under arms control legislation and can only be exported under license. Semple's feud with Kapoor is similarly gimmicky. He described his Pinkest Pink (and the ban on selling it to Kapoor) as "like a piece of performance art".
    - amyjess 8y ago
      > Semple's feud with Kapoor is similarly gimmicky. He described his Pinkest Pink (and the ban on selling it to Kapoor) as "like a piece of performance art". Yes. Kapoor eventually got his hands on some of the Pink, and he published a photo of him sticking his middle finger in the pigment. Semple then created a new pigment called Diamond Dust which contains pieces of broken glass. The whole purpose of Diamond Dust was "I dare you to stick your finger in this!".
baxtr 8y ago
I had a friend in school whose father would work at a local chemical plant. He used to say: “Did you know that red as a color isn’t stable? Just look at all the old red cars, they are so pale”. I’m ashamed to say, that I thought that was total BS. Now, years later, I know better and will remember this every time I see an old red car. You should too. PS: I think I’ll call him up tomorrow
- woolvalley 8y ago
  Also look at hair salons with all of their old pictures of hair styles on the front window and notice how blue they all are.
pnathan 8y ago
colors are a fascinating subspecialty of the coatings industry. YInMin blue is stupid expensive. A typical oil paint sells for between 13 and $60. One company trialed YInMn, and asked for $200 per tube to use up their samples, as I recall. https://www.gamblincolors.com/new-blue-color-oil-paint-yinmn-blue/ https://www.gamblincolors.com/new-blue-color-oil-paint-yinmn... Take a look at their review.
cialowicz 8y ago
Somewhat-related... I just found out about "structural" coloration[1], which is "production of color by microscopically structured surfaces fine enough to interfere with visible light". It took Lexus ~15 years to develop "structural blue", a colorless paint that creates blue light using this structural interference. The making-of video[2] is pretty amazing, and definitely worth watching. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_coloration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_coloration [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JU541_zm2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JU541_zm2w
- MrFoof 8y ago
  Came here looking to see if someone had already posted about this. Not surprised someone else was aware of it. This is absolutely worth a read, and the less than 5 minutes to watch the video. ----- I'm not sure what the "Structural Blue Edition" cost (my guess is the range of $10K - $30K premium), but it's still far from the most expensive car paint jobs -- Porsche's "Liquid Metal Silver" for the 918 Spyder (created by BASF) was a $64,000 option (where the aluminum flakes arrange themselves in a specific way during application), yet there's been crazier stuff offered than that.
- tgb 8y ago
  After learning about light interference creating the iridescence of butterflies and of CDs, I wondered whether you could burn a CD to control the structure of the CD to change that interference enough to, say, draw an iridescent image. However, it looks like the writeable elements of a CD are a too large. With a Bluray though, it might be possible... I haven't tried and I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about doing it.
  - buckminster 8y ago
    LightScribe kind of does this though it's not iridescent. You can also find some free code to achieve a similar effect on the data side of a disk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightScribe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightScribe
    - 8y ago
Apocryphon 8y ago
Could use a snappier name. How about Hooloovoo?
violatorrrr 8y ago
So, is there more to YInMn blue than mixing proportions of these elements and kiln-firing them in a crucible? Because if that's all there is to it, then what's to stop me from experimenting to find the best proportions and personally violating any patents, for my own DIY projects?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
chiefalchemist 8y ago
What amazes and dumbfounds me is that there are still colors we haven't discovered. A perfect example of: we don't know what we don't know.
randlet 8y ago
Cool article. The title made me think this was going to be an article from 2011 about Color the company [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Labs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Labs
Edzus124 8y ago
You can have plenty of status without money. Status symbols exist to show off that you have status. business loan is a fast and friendly way to boost progress of your business. https://bit.ly/2pQGHfA https://bit.ly/2pQGHfA
mhomde 8y ago
Speaking of red... In Sweden we have a color called "Falu red" that's the icon red that long has been put on many cottages and houses. The pigment is based on the copper in the copper mines of Falun. The metal helps against fungal infestion and absorbs UV rays helping the paint last longer. There are some areas where it's the only color allowed to help preserve their heritage. https://www.theawl.com/2017/12/falu-red-the-color-of-bucolic-barns-and-mummified-swedes/ https://www.theawl.com/2017/12/falu-red-the-color-of-bucolic... As a bonus or most famous sausage is called "Falukorv", it's also red.
- efraim 8y ago
  The pigment in Falu rödfärg is not based on copper, it's iron oxide, a byproduct from the copper mine.
whalesalad 8y ago
This reminds me of the 15+ years of work Lexus put into their new 'structural blue' color. It was designed to mimic the American Morpho butterfly. Color comes from the assembly of structures rather than pigment (there is no blue material used during the creation of the paint) Pretty wild stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYu1ruSakRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYu1ruSakRg
KingMob 8y ago
I'm surprised nobody picked up on this mistake about colors: "Modern computers can display about 16.8 million of them, far more than people can see or printers can reproduce." No, that's far more than people can DISTINGUISH, but we can certainly see them all, and printers can reproduce them. In fact, monitors (even the new higher-gamut monitors) can't cover the full range of human vision, so there are plenty of hues we can see that monitors can't make.
animal531 8y ago
I first heard of the fading red problem on a luxury yacht show, where the clients' new cushions kept fading in the sun, which was a bit of a problem for the outfitting company. It's amazing what random facts you pick up wherever.
NL807 8y ago
> Modern computers can display about 16.8 million of them, far more than people can see Not quite true. The colour gamut of most (in not all) displays is much smaller than the gamut we can see.
- wirelessest 8y ago
  This is always misreported. It's true that we can't distinguish between two adjacent rgb values (in most cases, on most displays...), which is where this comes from. But as you say, displays only cover a portion of the space. The easiest example I usually give is with blacks-- computer monitors just can't reproduce the absence of light well.

470 points by relham 8y ago

Not to nitpick, > Raised in Chennai, on the southeastern coast of India > After getting his doctorate in chemistry at the Indian Institute of Technology at Madras Madras is just the colonial name for Chennai, which is currently the name of the city and the capital of the sate - Tamilnadu. Wonderful article, we've taken the colors for granted; Subramanian didn't and I'm glad that it has rewarded him.

dingo_bat 8y ago
IIT Madras is the name of the institute, regardless of the name change of the city it is located in.
boundlessdreamz 8y ago
The article is right. It is Indian Institute of Technology, Madras (1) and not Indian Institute of Technology, Chennai. "Madras" above is part of the institute's name and it would take an amendment of the IIT act to rename it but I don't think it will happen. 1. https://www.iitm.ac.in/ https://www.iitm.ac.in/

macintux 8y ago

When I was a kid, I was remarkably incurious. Reasonably smart, I'd like to think, but it never really occurred to me that everything around me had to be invented by someone. The thought that creating a safe, lasting red pigment could be sufficiently difficult as to be worth millions or billions of dollars is astonishing. To all the people who've made my world possible, I apologize for my apathy, and I'll do better.

dugluak 8y ago
In that case you might appreciate this quote by Steve Jobs "Everything around you that you call life, was made up by people that were no smarter than you"
- corpMaverick 8y ago
  True if you are Steve Jobs I suppose.
  - nojvek 8y ago
    Most brains have relatively equal number of neurons. So ... most things were created by creatures with equal computing power as you.
starpilot 8y ago
This is pretty much all materials science. Vast amounts of work goes into developing new alloys, testing them, analyzing their properties. The consumer just knows his laptop casing is "aluminum."
- ghaff 8y ago
  Or that their backpack or travel kit is lighter or that their jacket keeps them drier. As someone who does (or at least aspires to) a fair bit of hiking and backpacking, and did more in the past, I'm very aware of the degree to which materials--including those based on traditional fabrics like wool--have really improved.
  - nikanj 8y ago
    It’s the cumulative nature of progress that really propels humanity forward. Someone made 10% better tools, so I can make 10% better products - which are the 10% better tools for someone else.
    - tajen 8y ago
      When we made a 10% better linux I doubled my sales. There’s really a compounding effect. When someone improves Spring Boot or Node/Express, we can publish dozens of new websites to address tinier needs – problems that wouldn’t even be addressed in the past.
ChuckMcM 8y ago
One of the interesting ways I found out about this was in a history class that was talking about "royal" fabrics. These were fabrics that only royalty could own. And while there was the general "lets make a rule to distinguish us from the common people" there was also that challenge that some colors were so rare because the pigments were only available to make them in very small quantities. As a young man it amazed me that people had fights over what color clothes you could wear or that purple pants would be 10x the expense of white or grey pants.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  We still have arguments about fabric and color. White at a wedding? A scandal. Rainbow shirt at a rally? Could get you beat up.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    Or embraced, depending on what the rally is about.
- gervase 8y ago
  This led me down a rabbit hole of ancient Roman pricing information! Turns out that a pair of purple silk pants (it seems purple dye was reserved only for silk) was actually closer to 2000x more expensive than standard (wool) pants. Also, the penalty for commoners wearing it was death, so there's that.
  - Retra 8y ago
    Similar thing occurred in imperial China. You could get killed/imprisoned for wearing yellow.
  - ronald_raygun 8y ago
    Oh, I'd like to learn more about this. Do you have any good references?
  - dfee 8y ago
    It’s like being dropped back into my Latin classes. The history component is great, and by far the best part of taking 4 years of it in high school.
lifeisstillgood 8y ago
This feeling was the reason i started https://github.com/mikadosoftware/importantexperiments4kids https://github.com/mikadosoftware/importantexperiments4kids but it stalled (apathy/time). well kinda - i have recently worked out how the measuring the moons distance worked - aristarchus over 2000 years ago got heliocentric and distances - impressive. Just working through how we got here, the technology and the inventions, and you do see the fragility of all we have. I also recommend The Knowledge by Lewis Dartnell, and How to defend your castle by William Gurstelle, and there is a youtube channel "primitive technology" which is kind of amazing if not wholly down this road
- H-S-Faraday 8y ago
  This is a cool idea.
- dosforever 8y ago
  Primitive technology is pretty great, having a video format that shows everything step-by-step really reflects the "aha" moment that comes with interesting inventions.
FooHentai 8y ago
I don't remember having that realization, but I do remember realizing that whomever created a thing always had a particular purpose in mind when doing so. That prompted me to spend more time considering the intentions behind something first, and as a result understanding came much quicker. This applies especially well in computer sciences, but it extends to all things man-made. Even beyond that if you're religious, I guess.
mozey 8y ago
Invented or discovered?
hokus 8y ago
I fear this apathy was also someones invention.
gr3yh47 8y ago
As a Christian, this is kind of the reason I'm so glad for Justification before God by faith in Christ alone and not by works. I've never for a moment given God all the thanks he deserves for what He's given me. Color is one easy example - what a wonderful, beautiful gift that I've not thanked Him for, for the vast majority of my life. I constantly fall short of giving Him the honor he deserves.
- discussedbefore 8y ago
  Did you miss Silicon Valley season 5 episode 4? ;)
- ChristianBundy 8y ago
  I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but generally when you reply to someone it's expected that your content has something to do with the parent comment (or the topic in general). I hope you'll stay to discuss this topic (and others!) but I think you may get a better response from a more worship-oriented forum. Good luck!
  - nojvek 8y ago
    Sure, a certain thing could be made by another human, but what made that other human? All human cultures throughout history, humans have believed in some concept of God. The idea that the unexplained can be explained with an omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely-powerful being. Usually it’s based on some human form. It brings humility that there is still so much we can’t do and don’t know. Just as numbers become so large that we can’t fit it in our heads, we attribute the symbol infinity for such numbers, God is a natural concept for the human mind. I assume for most in HN, their idea of the infinity is the universe operating by the laws of physics, making the experiencable universe possible.
    - gr3yh47 8y ago
      As Paul put it in Romans: >For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Thank God for Christ, to redeem us from our lack of thanks and honor to God!

apotheothesomai 8y ago

They could invent it, but to most of us men, it's just going to look like a pre-existing red. We don't do color distinctions very well. We've got bright red, pale red, and in-between.

ceejayoz 8y ago
You'd probably notice if your five year old Ferrari faded to a pink. > Red 254, aka Ferrari red, for example, is safe and popular, but it’s also carbon-based, leaving it susceptible to fading in the rain or the heat.
- TwelveNights 8y ago
  For something like this though, your Ferrari owner would probably not mind paying to give it a repainting every few years.
  - tempestn 8y ago
    Actually, exotic car owners/buyers tend to be obsessed about keeping the original paint. It's a rare Ferrari owner who would be willing to have his car repainted at all.
npongratz 8y ago
Indeed. Tetrachromacy is real, and men are unlikely to enjoy the superpower: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140905-the-women-with-super-human-vision http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140905-the-women-with-supe...
- giggles_giggles 8y ago
  Tetrachromacy is real but vanishingly rare. However, I've read before that women have more bars and cones in their eyes than men & therefore better color reception, without being tetrachromatic.
  - 8y ago

sgillen 8y ago

Very cool how the search for a material for use in computing led to a better blue pigment. Reminds me of all the technologies developed during the space race or for the military that wound up being use in every day applications.

Aardwolf 8y ago

Is the missing stable red pigment the reason why red clothes give off their color in the laundry much easier than the other colors?

logfromblammo 8y ago
Clothing is usually dyed, rather than inked or painted. Some dyes are better at attaching to fibers than others, and some synthetic polymer fibers are notoriously hard to dye. But on the other hand, some dyes diffuse into certain plastics very easily, and then never come out. It depends on the chemistry. The only pigmented clothes I am aware of are "dirt shirts" that are infused with strongly colored soil. The reddish orange color is undoubtedly iron oxide, and they will fade with every washing, because there is no binder to keep the pigment attached to the fiber.
- gwern 8y ago
  One exception is Japanese kakishibu/kaki-shibu: fermented unripe persimmons, creates a sort of rusty brown red which darkens over time, heavily used in traditional Japanese clothing for water-resistance and fire protection. People still like to use it for paper, shirts, and home-made or high-end jeans (eg https://www.weargustin.com/store/6683 https://www.weargustin.com/store/6683 )

npunt 8y ago

> For decades, red Lego bricks contained cadmium, a carcinogen. Ack. From another article [1] > One toy to watch out for? “Lego bricks from the ‘70s and ‘80s are the big fail,” Andrew Turner, the study’s lead researcher, told the BBC. > Roar Rude Trangbæk, a spokesperson for Lego, told The Sun that in regards to hazardous elements, the company “phased that material out back in 1979 to 1981.” Apparently its both yellow & red bricks. From a forum post [2] about the phase-out: > Not much information has ever been given out by TLG in regards to the switch from LEGO "with" Cadmium to LEGO without it, except that TLG switched over to Cadmium free LEGO in 1973. However, that doesn't really say a lot. Just look at the switch from old gray to new gray that started in 2003. It took many years for the switch to be complete (old gray elements were still found in LEGO sets for many years). So a 1973 switchover likely only means that the Bayer Corporation stopped sending TLG red and yellow plastic pellets. As for what was still in the TLG inventory.... my guess would be that it continued to find its' way into LEGO sets for several years until the supply of old red/yellow pellets was finally depleted. Makes me a bit wary to pass those down to my kids. [1] https://offspring.lifehacker.com/your-old-legos-might-be-toxic-1822608757 https://offspring.lifehacker.com/your-old-legos-might-be-tox... [2] https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/77306-cadmium-in-lego-bricks/ https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/773...

mmagin 8y ago
Not only is it fairly well encapsulated in plastic, the cadmium sulfide / cadmium selenide pigments are far less toxic when consumed orally than say the old lead carbonate pigment (known for being used as a white paint pigment) due to its poor solubility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_pigments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_pigments If the kids are old enough not to put legos in their mouth and choke on them and can be encouraged to wash their hands before meals, I wouldn't worry too much, personally.
ateesdalejr 8y ago
I remember biting on my red LEGO bricks as a kid to remove those ones that would get stuck. Never knew that they contained cadmium 'til now.

ipsum2 8y ago

I first learned about Yttrium blue from the new AMD Radeon Pro GPUs that are painted with them. They're really remarkably saturated (Google image search Radeon Pro WX 7100 for an example)

princekolt 8y ago
Wow those are beautiful! Every day I find a new reason to like AMD a bit more.
- swarnie_ 8y ago
  Clearly you're not a shareholder.
throwaway2048 8y ago
Just keep in mind your monitor really cannot accurately display the colour.
- 2bitencryption 8y ago
  a bit ironic, considering your monitor may very well be powered by that impossibly-blue GPU :)

gondolgames 8y ago

Is there a museum for these extreme colors? (Like the blue in the article or the pink in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM)

pg_bot 8y ago
There is the Forbes pigment collection at Harvard's art museum. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/09/a-wall-of-color-a-window-to-the-past/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/09/a-wall-of-col...

scythe 8y ago

I'm a little confused at the safety claims. Manganese is a cumulative poison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganism I'm not really qualified to quantify the toxicity of metals, but the chemists I've known are usually very careful when they have to work with manganese.

tathougies 8y ago
Typically, the toxicity of metals depend on how they're structured within molecules. For example, inorganic copper is cytotoxic, while organic copper is necessary for survival. In this case, the yttrium blue has a unique chemical structure. More so, I believe they use Manganese oxide to create the color. Manganese oxide is not dangerous, as far as we know, at least. It's a somewhat common food additive. According to [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese(II)_oxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese(II)_oxide), we consume tons of it per year. Ultimately, what typically matters is how a molecule interacts with the body, not necessarily how each component interacts. By that measure, Cyanide (which is just carbon + nitrogen) ought to have no ill effect, while cuprous oxide ought to be poisonous.
refurb 8y ago
Manganese isn't that toxic of a metal. Water purification tablets often contain potassium permangante. And that's safe to drink!

lanius 8y ago

Where can I view these brilliant colors in person? Apparently these colors are so vibrant, they cannot be accurately displayed on monitors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM

gitgreen 8y ago
Request a sample of Blue 10G513 from Shepherd Color Co or purchase a Radeon Pro WX. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-radeon-pro-wx-series,32324.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-radeon-pro-wx-series,3... Supposedly Crayola's "Bluetiful" color was inspired by YInMn but it's not made with the material.
kristianp 8y ago
You could try contacting Derivan: https://www.derivan.com.au/derivan-products/yin-min-blue.html https://www.derivan.com.au/derivan-products/yin-min-blue.htm...
splintercell 8y ago
One of the most unique blues I've seen is 'Baystate Blue' it's a fountain pen ink [1], cameras and screen doesn't capture how beautiful this ink is. This ink is also highly controversial in fountain pen community because it is accused of destroying fountain pens. (Also you drop it on plastic, and you'd need to use bleach to get it off), but man I love this ink. 1. http://www.inksandpens.com/content/images/2015/09/IMG_5211.jpg http://www.inksandpens.com/content/images/2015/09/IMG_5211.j...

mmagin 8y ago

One interesting aspect of red pigment usage that I feel this article could have explained better is why it fares poorest under the sun: of all the color pigments, it absorbs the most of the short-wavelength (high energy) light. Now, you'll naturally think, "but what about black?" Well, most of the black pigments we use are very chemically stable materials, like powdered carbon or some iron oxide compounds. (Once you know this you'll suddenly start to see how a disproportionate share of red cars have failing paint -- particularly after sometime around the early 1980s when the use of Cadmium pigments started to fall out of favor for most uses.)

cnasc 8y ago
> (Once you know this you'll suddenly start to see how a disproportionate share of red cars have failing paint -- particularly after sometime around the early 1980s when the use of Cadmium pigments started to fall out of favor for most uses.) I believe this has largely been remediated by using a clear coat over solid colors. Older cars had single-stage paint for non-metallic colors, so there would be nothing on top of your nice red paint to protect it. Modern clear coats typically block UV light, so the color should last much longer (long enough that your car will be all scratched and swirled well before the color fades).
- tesseract 8y ago
  The auto industry also pushed for development of new red pigments - Pyrrole Red is considered quite lightfast, but only became available starting in the late 80s. I regularly see 90s era red cars on the road with good looking paint these days. (Yes, the clear coat I'm sure is a factor as well.) http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/10/pollock_cuts.html http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/10/pollock_cuts.html

uptown 8y ago

The world of colors (and who "owns" them) is both odd and fascinating. For instance, Vanta Black can only be used by one artist - Anish Kapoor: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/one-artist-has-monopoly-worlds-blackest-black-pigment-180958264/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/one-artist-has-mon... In response to that rule, another artist created the pinkest pink and a competing black ... available for anyone in the world to use -- except Kapoor: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/artist-only-person-banned-using-worlds-pinkest-pink-180961464/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/artist-only-person... http://www.konbini.com/us/inspiration/stuart-semple-new-vantablack-paint/ http://www.konbini.com/us/inspiration/stuart-semple-new-vant...

gridscomputing 8y ago
it truly is THE PINKEST.
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cwkoss 8y ago
Anish Kapoor seems like a huge scumbag
- jdietrich 8y ago
  It's a bit of a gimmick. Vantablack is a highly specialised coating intended for use in precision optical equipment. It isn't really usable as an art material because it's prohibitively expensive, it needs to be applied under laboratory conditions and it's extremely fragile. It's considered a dual-use technology under arms control legislation and can only be exported under license. Semple's feud with Kapoor is similarly gimmicky. He described his Pinkest Pink (and the ban on selling it to Kapoor) as "like a piece of performance art".
  - amyjess 8y ago
    > Semple's feud with Kapoor is similarly gimmicky. He described his Pinkest Pink (and the ban on selling it to Kapoor) as "like a piece of performance art". Yes. Kapoor eventually got his hands on some of the Pink, and he published a photo of him sticking his middle finger in the pigment. Semple then created a new pigment called Diamond Dust which contains pieces of broken glass. The whole purpose of Diamond Dust was "I dare you to stick your finger in this!".

baxtr 8y ago

I had a friend in school whose father would work at a local chemical plant. He used to say: “Did you know that red as a color isn’t stable? Just look at all the old red cars, they are so pale”. I’m ashamed to say, that I thought that was total BS. Now, years later, I know better and will remember this every time I see an old red car. You should too. PS: I think I’ll call him up tomorrow

woolvalley 8y ago
Also look at hair salons with all of their old pictures of hair styles on the front window and notice how blue they all are.

pnathan 8y ago

colors are a fascinating subspecialty of the coatings industry. YInMin blue is stupid expensive. A typical oil paint sells for between 13 and $60. One company trialed YInMn, and asked for $200 per tube to use up their samples, as I recall. https://www.gamblincolors.com/new-blue-color-oil-paint-yinmn-blue/ https://www.gamblincolors.com/new-blue-color-oil-paint-yinmn... Take a look at their review.

cialowicz 8y ago

Somewhat-related... I just found out about "structural" coloration[1], which is "production of color by microscopically structured surfaces fine enough to interfere with visible light". It took Lexus ~15 years to develop "structural blue", a colorless paint that creates blue light using this structural interference. The making-of video[2] is pretty amazing, and definitely worth watching. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_coloration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_coloration [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JU541_zm2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JU541_zm2w

MrFoof 8y ago
Came here looking to see if someone had already posted about this. Not surprised someone else was aware of it. This is absolutely worth a read, and the less than 5 minutes to watch the video. ----- I'm not sure what the "Structural Blue Edition" cost (my guess is the range of $10K - $30K premium), but it's still far from the most expensive car paint jobs -- Porsche's "Liquid Metal Silver" for the 918 Spyder (created by BASF) was a $64,000 option (where the aluminum flakes arrange themselves in a specific way during application), yet there's been crazier stuff offered than that.
tgb 8y ago
After learning about light interference creating the iridescence of butterflies and of CDs, I wondered whether you could burn a CD to control the structure of the CD to change that interference enough to, say, draw an iridescent image. However, it looks like the writeable elements of a CD are a too large. With a Bluray though, it might be possible... I haven't tried and I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about doing it.
- buckminster 8y ago
  LightScribe kind of does this though it's not iridescent. You can also find some free code to achieve a similar effect on the data side of a disk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightScribe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightScribe
  - 8y ago

Apocryphon 8y ago

Could use a snappier name. How about Hooloovoo?

violatorrrr 8y ago

So, is there more to YInMn blue than mixing proportions of these elements and kiln-firing them in a crucible? Because if that's all there is to it, then what's to stop me from experimenting to find the best proportions and personally violating any patents, for my own DIY projects?

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chiefalchemist 8y ago

What amazes and dumbfounds me is that there are still colors we haven't discovered. A perfect example of: we don't know what we don't know.

randlet 8y ago

Cool article. The title made me think this was going to be an article from 2011 about Color the company [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Labs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Labs

Edzus124 8y ago

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mhomde 8y ago

Speaking of red... In Sweden we have a color called "Falu red" that's the icon red that long has been put on many cottages and houses. The pigment is based on the copper in the copper mines of Falun. The metal helps against fungal infestion and absorbs UV rays helping the paint last longer. There are some areas where it's the only color allowed to help preserve their heritage. https://www.theawl.com/2017/12/falu-red-the-color-of-bucolic-barns-and-mummified-swedes/ https://www.theawl.com/2017/12/falu-red-the-color-of-bucolic... As a bonus or most famous sausage is called "Falukorv", it's also red.

efraim 8y ago
The pigment in Falu rödfärg is not based on copper, it's iron oxide, a byproduct from the copper mine.

whalesalad 8y ago

This reminds me of the 15+ years of work Lexus put into their new 'structural blue' color. It was designed to mimic the American Morpho butterfly. Color comes from the assembly of structures rather than pigment (there is no blue material used during the creation of the paint) Pretty wild stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYu1ruSakRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYu1ruSakRg

KingMob 8y ago

I'm surprised nobody picked up on this mistake about colors: "Modern computers can display about 16.8 million of them, far more than people can see or printers can reproduce." No, that's far more than people can DISTINGUISH, but we can certainly see them all, and printers can reproduce them. In fact, monitors (even the new higher-gamut monitors) can't cover the full range of human vision, so there are plenty of hues we can see that monitors can't make.

animal531 8y ago

I first heard of the fading red problem on a luxury yacht show, where the clients' new cushions kept fading in the sun, which was a bit of a problem for the outfitting company. It's amazing what random facts you pick up wherever.

NL807 8y ago

> Modern computers can display about 16.8 million of them, far more than people can see Not quite true. The colour gamut of most (in not all) displays is much smaller than the gamut we can see.

wirelessest 8y ago
This is always misreported. It's true that we can't distinguish between two adjacent rgb values (in most cases, on most displays...), which is where this comes from. But as you say, displays only cover a portion of the space. The easiest example I usually give is with blacks-- computer monitors just can't reproduce the absence of light well.