17 ms·

Oracle owns “JavaScript”, so Apple is taking down my app

484 points by petercooper 9y ago

ryanmarsh 9y ago
Fuck it, let's just call it ECMAScript and be done with it. JavaScript was a purposefully horrible name to begin with (as other commenters have pointed out). One less thing Oracle can jerk us around on. I'm just going to call it ES or ECMAScript from now on. If enough people do it the matter will be settled.
- madacoo 9y ago
  > let's just call it ECMAScript and be done with it Okay.
- lostmsu 9y ago
  Better switch to WebAssembly
- yoz-y 9y ago
  Havent dug into this but can you actually? Will browsers accept type="ecmascript" and will editors accept .es extension without much fuss?
binarynate 9y ago
I knew that Microsoft had to call their ECMAScript implementation JScript, but it never dawned on me that Oracle is the current owner of the "JavaScript" trademark: http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=2416017&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=2416017&caseSearchType=US_... Between this and Oracle's ongoing lawsuit against Google for their use of Java in Android, I have a pretty low opinion of Oracle.
- giancarlostoro 9y ago
  If I had to explain Oracle to anyone I would only say that their motto is simply "Do all evil."
  - tomohawk 9y ago
    At least there's no pretense
  - blasdel 9y ago
    It's more accurately "take money" — don't anthropomorphize them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246
    - giancarlostoro 9y ago
      Heh and adding on to that... "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"
      - matte_black 9y ago
        But the root of all evil is believing there is only one truth and that you are in possession of it.
        kitd 9y ago
        Do you truly believe that? Just asking ...
        matte_black 9y ago
        Do you? Seems like it struck a nerve with a lot of people. Not sure what their problem is.
        kitd 9y ago
        I was facetiously trying to point out the irony in your statement. I should have added a ;) .
        julianj 9y ago
        I didn't downvote you, but I believe I understand why folks got upset. It appears that you are taking a passive aggressive dig at all religions because the parent comment referenced a Christian biblical verse (1 Timothy 6:10). While this usually isn't an issue here, the comment appears unrelated to the main conversation and may be seen as trolling. I could be wrong.
- aphextron 9y ago
  >Between this and Oracle's ongoing lawsuit against Google for their use of Java in Android, I have a pretty low opinion of Oracle. You won't find any argument here
- jannes 9y ago
  Hmm, so JavaScript was conceived at Netscape in 1995 according to Wikipedia. After the release Sun must have registered the "JavaScript" trademark instead of going after Netscape. Any idea why they did that? Wasn't their inaction risking to lose the entire Java trademark by not defending it against Netscape? Does anyone know more about the history here? What would Google do today if someone named their language DartScript? Or what would Apple do if someone released SwiftScript?
  - thristian 9y ago
    Sun was encouraging Netscape to include the JVM in their browser for applets, and generally trying to promote Java as the Next Big Thing. The in-browser scripting language was going to be called "LiveScript", but Sun asked them to change it to "JavaScript" to strengthen the Java brand, and make the syntax more closely resemble C-family languages.
    - bch 9y ago
      Wow - I heard it was called JavaScript to cash in on the familiarity of the name Java, but I didn’t realize it was at the behest of Sun.
      - protomyth 9y ago
        If you look at the Java timeline, the full Java marketing blitz wasn’t in full swing. JavaScript was announced on December 4, 1995 and Java (alpha) was public in March of the same year. A stable Java wasn’t available until 1996. It was more coordinated than riding the coattails.
        rootlocus 9y ago
        > the full Java marketing blitz wasn’t in full swing Pun unintended I guess, but still funny.
- ams6110 9y ago
  I always assumed it was because that was Microsoft's "embrace, extend, extinguish" era and they didn't want to use the name "Java" but did want to imply that it was compatible. Also at the time, pretty sure that Sun still owned Java?
  - mathw 9y ago
    If I recall correctly, it was called JScript because it wasn't actually fully compatible and because it had extended stuff - there was a JScript host for Windows scripting at one point, and there was talk about using it for ASP instead of VBScript. I'm not sure if that was ever actually implemented. Also I suspect Microsoft wanted to have their own branding. Visual J++ on the other hand was because Sun sued them over a Java implementation which wasn't actually compatible with Java, and misuse of the trademark, and all that kind of thing, so Microsoft weren't allowed to call it Java anymore. This ultimately led to the development of C#, so it was probably for the good in the long term, apart from some of the bits they copied from Java in what was presumably an attempt to make it more a direct alternative.
    - amichal 9y ago
      Jscript asp was a real thing. “Run jscript on the client and the sever” was supposed to be a big time/labor saving. Ala nodejs
- codetrotter 9y ago
  Indeed. When they said: > The unauthorized display of our client's intellectual property is likely to cause consumers encountering this app to mistakenly believe that it emanates from, or is provided under a license from, Oracle. I think most of us would agree that no, literally almost no one familiar with JavaScript would have believed that app to “emanate from, or be provided under a license from, Oracle”. I know that Oracle owns Java, but I never would have guessed that they had any ownership of the JavaScript name. When I think of JS, Oracle is like the last company I would think of. When I think of JS, I think of Brendan Eich, Netscape, Mozilla, Firefox, web development, Node.js, etc.
  - suyash 9y ago
    " When I think of JS, Oracle is like the last company I would think of." - Check out Oracle JET (JavaScript Toolkit), it's an open source library for modern web developers : https://github.com/oracle/oraclejet https://github.com/oracle/oraclejet
    - hmm_really 9y ago
      Which no 'modern' web developer would go anywhere near!
      - boubiyeah 9y ago
        What the hell is this...
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      LOL Google taught everybody a lesson, avoid Oracle products.
    - gargravarr 9y ago
      Wait, Oracle? On GITHUB? Now I have seen everything...
      - Ygg2 9y ago
- hyperpallium 9y ago
  If you have a pretty low opinion of Oracle just because of that, you don't know much about Oracle.
  - mathgladiator 9y ago
    Are you saying the reality is much worse? Or that Oracle has a bright side?
    - StavrosK 9y ago
      The former, Oracle is pretty much the devil of the tech world.
      - eps 9y ago
        A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Those Hawaiian islands aren't cheap, you know...
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Oracle exists mainly to make Microsoft look good.
      - Ygg2 9y ago
        Please, Oracle exist only to make money. Microsoft looking good is just an amusing side effect.
    - suyash 9y ago
      It's one of the market leader in enterprise software and database for decades. Don't be just another hater.
      - fuzzy2 9y ago
        I’ve never heard a developer say good things about Oracle databases though. Being the #1 doesn’t mean you’re right. It just means your ads work.
- gk1 9y ago
  It’s also the trademark owner of “MySQL”, which I discovered when Google AdWords rejected some of my client’s ads for having “MySQL” in them (the client’s product integrates with the database). I spent weeks and many back-and-forth emails and calls with AdWords support trying to explain that 1) our use of the term is well within Oracle’s guidelines, and 2) no, I am not going to contact Oracle to fill out a permission form for me. It didn’t work. Not even with Level 2 support. Thankfully, AdWords policy enforcement is completely random and nonsensical so I just duplicated the ads several times until one of them did not get flagged.
- tastyfreeze 9y ago
  You must not have a lot experience with Oracle if you had even a moderately rosy opinion of Oracle. In my experience Oracle products are stupendously overpriced. They have been riding their dot-com boom clout in the hollow husk of a company. The only weapons Oracle has are vendor lock in and crushing competition with litigation.
jarsin 9y ago
Finally, the ultimate reason to kill off JavaScript once and for all!
- SllX 9y ago
  It would be nice if eliminating web scripting was as simple as Oracle asserting their trademark rights.
  - marssaxman 9y ago
    I might actually forgive Oracle if that happened.
    - cryptonector 9y ago
      Hmmm, we just need to find the right lawyer there and put the thought in their head.
      - djsumdog 9y ago
        You need some inception; make them think it was their idea.
        a3n 9y ago
        JavaScript was not their idea, so that's clearly not a problem.
        Manozco 9y ago
        Nah, you need to make them think it is going to bring them money. They'll happily take someone's else idea in this case ;)
- _sdegutis 9y ago
  Meh, I learned modern JavaScript and dove deep into how JS works over the last year and I think it’s probably one of my favorite dynamic languages if not my most favorite one. The syntax is a nice sweet spot, the semantics make more sense in most situations than Ruby or Python, the lacking standard library has been more than made up for by third part packages. I’d love to work in JS in the future which isn’t something I’d have said 10 years ago and especially not 20 years ago.
gowld 9y ago
[deleted. Netscape licensed "Java" name from Sun.]
- nl 9y ago
  Except that Oracle owns both the JavaScript and Java trademarks via the Sun acquisition. And Sun requested the name change: in early December, Netscape and Sun did a license agreement and it became JavaScript. And the idea was to make it a complementary scripting language to go with Java, with the compiled language.[1] So it's kind of the opposite of chickens coming home to roost. More like a term plan finally paying off. [1] https://www.infoworld.com/article/2653798/application-development/javascript-creator-ponders-past--future.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2653798/application-develo...
- powvans 9y ago
  Yes, thank goodness that those impudent thugs that usurped the good name of Java are getting their comeuppance 25 years later. This will teach Reddit user imacpro1 a lesson that he will not soon forget!
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  To be fair, 23 years is a very, very long time for something to "roost".
brlewis 9y ago
Is anyone else bothered by the likelihood that the writer of this sentence doesn't believe it's true? The unauthorized display of our client's intellectual property is likely to cause consumers encountering this app to mistakenly believe that it emanates from, or is provided under a license from, Oracle.
- IAmEveryone 9y ago
  Let's not go overboard with the criticism. It's a standard phrase expressing a probability, because it's impossible to predict with absolute certainty. (I have my doubts regarding that probability, but that's a different matter)
  - brlewis 9y ago
    Yes, "likely" is expressing a probability. Substitute "unlikely" into their sentence and it would still be expressing a probability, except it would be a believable one. I stand by my original comment. There's nothing overboard about it, and nothing demanding absolute certainty.
- _bxg1 9y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if that part of the process is automated. With a dictionary of words mapped to their trademark records, it would be easy to do a simple string search over an app's title and description and auto-generate this whole blurb.
Wehrdo 9y ago
I'm surprised that "JavaScript" has not become a generic trademark [0]. Examples from the Wikipedia article include Thermos, Chapstick, and Dumpster. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark
- petercooper 9y ago
  I was at a keynote about 6 years ago where Brendan Eich said he thought it'd be indefensible as a trademark now too, though I must note it was just his opinion. That Oracle are now suddenly attempting to defend the trademark must mean something..
  - cryptonector 9y ago
    It may mean nothing more than that some Oracle lawyer is keeping busy, showing that they are pulling their weight.
- cryptonector 9y ago
  A test case might be needed. If Oracle were to sue a deep-pocketed competitor over the trademark, then we might find a court reaching the conclusion that the trademark has been diluted and the name is now generic. But if Oracle does no such thing, and sues only shallow-pocketed "nobodies", then the legal status of the mark will remain unclear. My guess is Oracle would only do the latter, and that they're doing it because some lawyer thinks that Oracle has to do this to demonstrate that it is defending the mark even though that's nonsense if they don't go after notable unlicensed uses of their mark. Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to a corporate lawyer.
  - cobbzilla 9y ago
    I love your riff on Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to a corporate lawyer." Shall we call it Cryptonector's Razor? You invented it, you name it :) edit: someone else (not me) should name the principle that explains why so few people on HN have any sense of humor whatsoever.
piinbinary 9y ago
Should we actually start calling it "Yavascript"? ref: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...
- djsumdog 9y ago
  I was wondering why he kept pronouncing it that way. I thought he was just doing funny German pronunciation thing.
  - nkozyra 9y ago
    It's very common to hear Scandinavian speakers pronounce it that way.
- rvalue 9y ago
  did he call yavascript to avoid something like this?
  - swlkr 9y ago
    He was from the future in the presentation, so he knew that after this oracle debacle, everyone since 2018 onwards called it "yavascript"
    - dmoy 9y ago
      In that case everybody in the exclusion zone better start selling their real estate. Help the short term housing crunch while they're at it.
    - wombatpm 9y ago
      I'm still holding out for JawaScript
  - eropple 9y ago
    Phonetic drift and "information lost to time" is a pretty obvious reference, I think.
hajile 9y ago
ES seems like a decent enough alternative to me.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Izkata 9y ago
Given the formatting, I can't help but wonder if the trademark is for "JAVASCRIPT" and not "JavaScript"/"Javascript"/"javascript"...
- colejohnson66 9y ago
  Trademarks are case insensitive
8bitsrule 9y ago
Because "Ecmascript" sounds like a job for the Ghostbusters.
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  Or perhaps a skin rash.
kbumsik 9y ago
What is the name of the app? It is unclear if the OP uses "JavaScript" in the title of the app, or just "JavaScript" appears in the description or the content of the app. I guess they are quite different cases.
- imacpro1 9y ago
  App author here, the name is: "HTML5, CSS, JavaScript, HTML, Snippet Editor". The app was written long time ago and I'm surprised to receive an email from Apple about it at all. Here is the link so you can see how it's shown in the App Store, I don't think anyone would associate this app with Oracle! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/html5-css-javascript-html-snippet-editor/id448999049?ls=1&mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/html5-css-javascript-html-sn...
  - pronoiac 9y ago
    It's in the (unwieldy) name? Have you considered changing the name to, say, Snippet Editor?
    - imacpro1 9y ago
      This was done long time ago when we game the appstore ranking by adding all the keywords to the app name. I haven't touched the app since like many years.
      - dxw92297 9y ago
        So many years the App Store gives a warning it needs an update to run OK under current IOS. Not trying to defend Oracle or justify this move, but do you think the negative feedback might have influenced the issuing of the takedown? I see many other Javascript editors and Javascript-based tools on the App Store and this is the first I’ve read of a takedown due to this specific issue. Maybe you just became the lucky first case.
      - BreakItDown 9y ago
        Maybe stop trying to game the system? If your product is worth anything, people will buy it without the need for tricky bullshit.
dingo_bat 9y ago
We can still call it ES6 right?
Someone1234 9y ago
It is unfortunate that "ECMAScript" is simply a terrible name. I understand why the term is used, but that doesn't make it inherently good, easy to say, or memorable. Fortunately the ES shorthand is more workable (e.g. ES6, ES2017, etc).
- meta_AU 9y ago
  ek ma script? It isn't too hard to say.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  We should just shorten that to eichscript.
- propelol 9y ago
  We should just call it JS. That way the filename extension still makes sense.
- slavak 9y ago
  > 1995 - Brendan Eich reads up on every mistake ever made in designing a programming language, invents a few more, and creates LiveScript. Later, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of Java the language is renamed JavaScript. Later still, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases the language is renamed ECMAScript. From the brilliant "A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages": http://james-iry.blogspot.co.il/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html http://james-iry.blogspot.co.il/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and... .
- gnulinux 9y ago
  I can't see what's wrong with ECMAScript. ['ek.ma] script. Javascript is just as long.
  - mschuetz 9y ago
    ECMAScript sounds like a disease and it's unpleasant to pronounce.
- 9y ago
tooltalk 9y ago
I guess it depends on what your app "Javascript" does. The key idea in trademark disputes/claims is that you are probably ok as long as your mark isn't confusingly similar to a widely known valid mark by another entity/owner. So if your Javascript app has nothing whatsoever to do with the programming language or computer in general, Apple shouldn't take down your app. Eons ago Apple Computer was sued by Apple Corp (Beatle's record label) for trademark infringement. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Steve's deliberately named their computer company after the Beattles's corporate creature, being that Jobs was an ardent Beatles fan. They settled and agreed not to enter each other's business (ie, music and computer), so as not to confuse consumers. Apple is a bit hypocritical in this regard though -- in one trademark lawsuit, the company sued a mom-and-pop grocer in Poland whose website, A.pl, Apple claimed, violated Apple's trademark, not too long ago and was criticized for their insanely absurd legal tactics.
- userbinator 9y ago
  From the head of the linked Reddit discussion: Just received this email from Apple about my app(Html, css, javascript snippet editor). In other words, it appears to be an app that's an IDE for various syntaxes, and JavaScript is one of them. IMHO (not a lawyer, but just observation) simply mentioning a trademark in reference to your product having something to do with it is completely legit. Otherwise we'd be seeing companies like Apple go after all the smartphone case manufacturers that mention "iPhone" since that's what their product is for.
  - dotancohen 9y ago
    > Otherwise we'd be seeing companies like Apple go after all the smartphone case manufacturers that mention "iPhone" since that's what their product is for. Apple does that. They have a "Made For i" accessory program, and go after third-party accessory distributors (not manufacturers) who use their trademarks without permission: https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/ https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/
luord 9y ago
Wow, Oracle is now even more evil than they were just yesterday.
- foobarbazetc 9y ago
  Another day ending in “y”... :)
alanh 9y ago
It makes my head hurt a little bit to think that everything after the slash in the Mime type of open web standard "text/javascript" is a trademark Oracle is actually trying to enforce
sebazzz 9y ago
I wonder what would happen if he actually asked Oracle permission to use the name. Would Oracle allow it? Would he be required to pay a fee?
- consp 9y ago
  > Would Oracle allow it? Yes, but only after: > Would he be required to pay a fee? Yes, it's Oracle. It will be a hefty one.
farnsworthy 9y ago
It needs a new name (that isn't "ECMAScript").
animex 9y ago
Is this Apple just doing pre-emptive due-diligence or did Oracle actually raise a flag?
hyperpallium 9y ago
Boycot "Javascript"!
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  Sure: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/ (Just don't go poking around the addon internals, might be written in The-Language-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named)
smitherfield 9y ago
Nobody tell Oracle! https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/search?q=JavaScript https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/search?q=JavaScript
jacquesm 9y ago
Oracle is just acting as expected. Nice of Apple to stand up for their developers.
z3t4 9y ago
This was probably an automated script and just a precaution from Apple. I think it's safe to use the name JavaScript. For me JavaScript is ES5, eg before 2015 and EcmaScript is the new JavaScript from ES6 2015 and onwards.
tedeh 9y ago
IANAL, but why does he not just change the name to "JS" and be done with it? Edit: looks like he was suggested this in the Reddit thread and thought it was a good idea.
AngeloAnolin 9y ago
Reading this article makes me want to speed up on a project where I am migrating an application away from Oracle DB and Forms.

484 points by petercooper 9y ago

Fuck it, let's just call it ECMAScript and be done with it. JavaScript was a purposefully horrible name to begin with (as other commenters have pointed out). One less thing Oracle can jerk us around on. I'm just going to call it ES or ECMAScript from now on. If enough people do it the matter will be settled.

madacoo 9y ago
> let's just call it ECMAScript and be done with it Okay.
lostmsu 9y ago
Better switch to WebAssembly
yoz-y 9y ago
Havent dug into this but can you actually? Will browsers accept type="ecmascript" and will editors accept .es extension without much fuss?

binarynate 9y ago

I knew that Microsoft had to call their ECMAScript implementation JScript, but it never dawned on me that Oracle is the current owner of the "JavaScript" trademark: http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=2416017&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=2416017&caseSearchType=US_... Between this and Oracle's ongoing lawsuit against Google for their use of Java in Android, I have a pretty low opinion of Oracle.

giancarlostoro 9y ago
If I had to explain Oracle to anyone I would only say that their motto is simply "Do all evil."
- tomohawk 9y ago
  At least there's no pretense
- blasdel 9y ago
  It's more accurately "take money" — don't anthropomorphize them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246
  - giancarlostoro 9y ago
    Heh and adding on to that... "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"
    - matte_black 9y ago
      But the root of all evil is believing there is only one truth and that you are in possession of it.
      - kitd 9y ago
        Do you truly believe that? Just asking ...
        matte_black 9y ago
        Do you? Seems like it struck a nerve with a lot of people. Not sure what their problem is.
        kitd 9y ago
        I was facetiously trying to point out the irony in your statement. I should have added a ;) .
        julianj 9y ago
        I didn't downvote you, but I believe I understand why folks got upset. It appears that you are taking a passive aggressive dig at all religions because the parent comment referenced a Christian biblical verse (1 Timothy 6:10). While this usually isn't an issue here, the comment appears unrelated to the main conversation and may be seen as trolling. I could be wrong.
aphextron 9y ago
>Between this and Oracle's ongoing lawsuit against Google for their use of Java in Android, I have a pretty low opinion of Oracle. You won't find any argument here
jannes 9y ago
Hmm, so JavaScript was conceived at Netscape in 1995 according to Wikipedia. After the release Sun must have registered the "JavaScript" trademark instead of going after Netscape. Any idea why they did that? Wasn't their inaction risking to lose the entire Java trademark by not defending it against Netscape? Does anyone know more about the history here? What would Google do today if someone named their language DartScript? Or what would Apple do if someone released SwiftScript?
- thristian 9y ago
  Sun was encouraging Netscape to include the JVM in their browser for applets, and generally trying to promote Java as the Next Big Thing. The in-browser scripting language was going to be called "LiveScript", but Sun asked them to change it to "JavaScript" to strengthen the Java brand, and make the syntax more closely resemble C-family languages.
  - bch 9y ago
    Wow - I heard it was called JavaScript to cash in on the familiarity of the name Java, but I didn’t realize it was at the behest of Sun.
    - protomyth 9y ago
      If you look at the Java timeline, the full Java marketing blitz wasn’t in full swing. JavaScript was announced on December 4, 1995 and Java (alpha) was public in March of the same year. A stable Java wasn’t available until 1996. It was more coordinated than riding the coattails.
      - rootlocus 9y ago
        > the full Java marketing blitz wasn’t in full swing Pun unintended I guess, but still funny.
ams6110 9y ago
I always assumed it was because that was Microsoft's "embrace, extend, extinguish" era and they didn't want to use the name "Java" but did want to imply that it was compatible. Also at the time, pretty sure that Sun still owned Java?
- mathw 9y ago
  If I recall correctly, it was called JScript because it wasn't actually fully compatible and because it had extended stuff - there was a JScript host for Windows scripting at one point, and there was talk about using it for ASP instead of VBScript. I'm not sure if that was ever actually implemented. Also I suspect Microsoft wanted to have their own branding. Visual J++ on the other hand was because Sun sued them over a Java implementation which wasn't actually compatible with Java, and misuse of the trademark, and all that kind of thing, so Microsoft weren't allowed to call it Java anymore. This ultimately led to the development of C#, so it was probably for the good in the long term, apart from some of the bits they copied from Java in what was presumably an attempt to make it more a direct alternative.
  - amichal 9y ago
    Jscript asp was a real thing. “Run jscript on the client and the sever” was supposed to be a big time/labor saving. Ala nodejs
codetrotter 9y ago
Indeed. When they said: > The unauthorized display of our client's intellectual property is likely to cause consumers encountering this app to mistakenly believe that it emanates from, or is provided under a license from, Oracle. I think most of us would agree that no, literally almost no one familiar with JavaScript would have believed that app to “emanate from, or be provided under a license from, Oracle”. I know that Oracle owns Java, but I never would have guessed that they had any ownership of the JavaScript name. When I think of JS, Oracle is like the last company I would think of. When I think of JS, I think of Brendan Eich, Netscape, Mozilla, Firefox, web development, Node.js, etc.
- suyash 9y ago
  " When I think of JS, Oracle is like the last company I would think of." - Check out Oracle JET (JavaScript Toolkit), it's an open source library for modern web developers : https://github.com/oracle/oraclejet https://github.com/oracle/oraclejet
  - hmm_really 9y ago
    Which no 'modern' web developer would go anywhere near!
    - boubiyeah 9y ago
      What the hell is this...
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    LOL Google taught everybody a lesson, avoid Oracle products.
  - gargravarr 9y ago
    Wait, Oracle? On GITHUB? Now I have seen everything...
    - Ygg2 9y ago
hyperpallium 9y ago
If you have a pretty low opinion of Oracle just because of that, you don't know much about Oracle.
- mathgladiator 9y ago
  Are you saying the reality is much worse? Or that Oracle has a bright side?
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    The former, Oracle is pretty much the devil of the tech world.
    - eps 9y ago
      A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Those Hawaiian islands aren't cheap, you know...
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Oracle exists mainly to make Microsoft look good.
    - Ygg2 9y ago
      Please, Oracle exist only to make money. Microsoft looking good is just an amusing side effect.
  - suyash 9y ago
    It's one of the market leader in enterprise software and database for decades. Don't be just another hater.
    - fuzzy2 9y ago
      I’ve never heard a developer say good things about Oracle databases though. Being the #1 doesn’t mean you’re right. It just means your ads work.
gk1 9y ago
It’s also the trademark owner of “MySQL”, which I discovered when Google AdWords rejected some of my client’s ads for having “MySQL” in them (the client’s product integrates with the database). I spent weeks and many back-and-forth emails and calls with AdWords support trying to explain that 1) our use of the term is well within Oracle’s guidelines, and 2) no, I am not going to contact Oracle to fill out a permission form for me. It didn’t work. Not even with Level 2 support. Thankfully, AdWords policy enforcement is completely random and nonsensical so I just duplicated the ads several times until one of them did not get flagged.
tastyfreeze 9y ago
You must not have a lot experience with Oracle if you had even a moderately rosy opinion of Oracle. In my experience Oracle products are stupendously overpriced. They have been riding their dot-com boom clout in the hollow husk of a company. The only weapons Oracle has are vendor lock in and crushing competition with litigation.

jarsin 9y ago

Finally, the ultimate reason to kill off JavaScript once and for all!

SllX 9y ago
It would be nice if eliminating web scripting was as simple as Oracle asserting their trademark rights.
- marssaxman 9y ago
  I might actually forgive Oracle if that happened.
  - cryptonector 9y ago
    Hmmm, we just need to find the right lawyer there and put the thought in their head.
    - djsumdog 9y ago
      You need some inception; make them think it was their idea.
      - a3n 9y ago
        JavaScript was not their idea, so that's clearly not a problem.
      - Manozco 9y ago
        Nah, you need to make them think it is going to bring them money. They'll happily take someone's else idea in this case ;)
_sdegutis 9y ago
Meh, I learned modern JavaScript and dove deep into how JS works over the last year and I think it’s probably one of my favorite dynamic languages if not my most favorite one. The syntax is a nice sweet spot, the semantics make more sense in most situations than Ruby or Python, the lacking standard library has been more than made up for by third part packages. I’d love to work in JS in the future which isn’t something I’d have said 10 years ago and especially not 20 years ago.

gowld 9y ago

[deleted. Netscape licensed "Java" name from Sun.]

nl 9y ago
Except that Oracle owns both the JavaScript and Java trademarks via the Sun acquisition. And Sun requested the name change: in early December, Netscape and Sun did a license agreement and it became JavaScript. And the idea was to make it a complementary scripting language to go with Java, with the compiled language.[1] So it's kind of the opposite of chickens coming home to roost. More like a term plan finally paying off. [1] https://www.infoworld.com/article/2653798/application-development/javascript-creator-ponders-past--future.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2653798/application-develo...
powvans 9y ago
Yes, thank goodness that those impudent thugs that usurped the good name of Java are getting their comeuppance 25 years later. This will teach Reddit user imacpro1 a lesson that he will not soon forget!
pfarnsworth 9y ago
To be fair, 23 years is a very, very long time for something to "roost".

brlewis 9y ago

Is anyone else bothered by the likelihood that the writer of this sentence doesn't believe it's true? The unauthorized display of our client's intellectual property is likely to cause consumers encountering this app to mistakenly believe that it emanates from, or is provided under a license from, Oracle.

IAmEveryone 9y ago
Let's not go overboard with the criticism. It's a standard phrase expressing a probability, because it's impossible to predict with absolute certainty. (I have my doubts regarding that probability, but that's a different matter)
- brlewis 9y ago
  Yes, "likely" is expressing a probability. Substitute "unlikely" into their sentence and it would still be expressing a probability, except it would be a believable one. I stand by my original comment. There's nothing overboard about it, and nothing demanding absolute certainty.
_bxg1 9y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if that part of the process is automated. With a dictionary of words mapped to their trademark records, it would be easy to do a simple string search over an app's title and description and auto-generate this whole blurb.

Wehrdo 9y ago

I'm surprised that "JavaScript" has not become a generic trademark [0]. Examples from the Wikipedia article include Thermos, Chapstick, and Dumpster. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark

petercooper 9y ago
I was at a keynote about 6 years ago where Brendan Eich said he thought it'd be indefensible as a trademark now too, though I must note it was just his opinion. That Oracle are now suddenly attempting to defend the trademark must mean something..
- cryptonector 9y ago
  It may mean nothing more than that some Oracle lawyer is keeping busy, showing that they are pulling their weight.
cryptonector 9y ago
A test case might be needed. If Oracle were to sue a deep-pocketed competitor over the trademark, then we might find a court reaching the conclusion that the trademark has been diluted and the name is now generic. But if Oracle does no such thing, and sues only shallow-pocketed "nobodies", then the legal status of the mark will remain unclear. My guess is Oracle would only do the latter, and that they're doing it because some lawyer thinks that Oracle has to do this to demonstrate that it is defending the mark even though that's nonsense if they don't go after notable unlicensed uses of their mark. Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to a corporate lawyer.
- cobbzilla 9y ago
  I love your riff on Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to a corporate lawyer." Shall we call it Cryptonector's Razor? You invented it, you name it :) edit: someone else (not me) should name the principle that explains why so few people on HN have any sense of humor whatsoever.

piinbinary 9y ago

Should we actually start calling it "Yavascript"? ref: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

djsumdog 9y ago
I was wondering why he kept pronouncing it that way. I thought he was just doing funny German pronunciation thing.
- nkozyra 9y ago
  It's very common to hear Scandinavian speakers pronounce it that way.
rvalue 9y ago
did he call yavascript to avoid something like this?
- swlkr 9y ago
  He was from the future in the presentation, so he knew that after this oracle debacle, everyone since 2018 onwards called it "yavascript"
  - dmoy 9y ago
    In that case everybody in the exclusion zone better start selling their real estate. Help the short term housing crunch while they're at it.
  - wombatpm 9y ago
    I'm still holding out for JawaScript
- eropple 9y ago
  Phonetic drift and "information lost to time" is a pretty obvious reference, I think.

hajile 9y ago

ES seems like a decent enough alternative to me.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Izkata 9y ago

Given the formatting, I can't help but wonder if the trademark is for "JAVASCRIPT" and not "JavaScript"/"Javascript"/"javascript"...

colejohnson66 9y ago
Trademarks are case insensitive

8bitsrule 9y ago

Because "Ecmascript" sounds like a job for the Ghostbusters.

GenericsMotors 9y ago
Or perhaps a skin rash.

kbumsik 9y ago

What is the name of the app? It is unclear if the OP uses "JavaScript" in the title of the app, or just "JavaScript" appears in the description or the content of the app. I guess they are quite different cases.

imacpro1 9y ago
App author here, the name is: "HTML5, CSS, JavaScript, HTML, Snippet Editor". The app was written long time ago and I'm surprised to receive an email from Apple about it at all. Here is the link so you can see how it's shown in the App Store, I don't think anyone would associate this app with Oracle! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/html5-css-javascript-html-snippet-editor/id448999049?ls=1&mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/html5-css-javascript-html-sn...
- pronoiac 9y ago
  It's in the (unwieldy) name? Have you considered changing the name to, say, Snippet Editor?
  - imacpro1 9y ago
    This was done long time ago when we game the appstore ranking by adding all the keywords to the app name. I haven't touched the app since like many years.
    - dxw92297 9y ago
      So many years the App Store gives a warning it needs an update to run OK under current IOS. Not trying to defend Oracle or justify this move, but do you think the negative feedback might have influenced the issuing of the takedown? I see many other Javascript editors and Javascript-based tools on the App Store and this is the first I’ve read of a takedown due to this specific issue. Maybe you just became the lucky first case.
    - BreakItDown 9y ago
      Maybe stop trying to game the system? If your product is worth anything, people will buy it without the need for tricky bullshit.

dingo_bat 9y ago

We can still call it ES6 right?

Someone1234 9y ago

It is unfortunate that "ECMAScript" is simply a terrible name. I understand why the term is used, but that doesn't make it inherently good, easy to say, or memorable. Fortunately the ES shorthand is more workable (e.g. ES6, ES2017, etc).

meta_AU 9y ago
ek ma script? It isn't too hard to say.
jessaustin 9y ago
We should just shorten that to eichscript.
propelol 9y ago
We should just call it JS. That way the filename extension still makes sense.
slavak 9y ago
> 1995 - Brendan Eich reads up on every mistake ever made in designing a programming language, invents a few more, and creates LiveScript. Later, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of Java the language is renamed JavaScript. Later still, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases the language is renamed ECMAScript. From the brilliant "A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages": http://james-iry.blogspot.co.il/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html http://james-iry.blogspot.co.il/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and... .
gnulinux 9y ago
I can't see what's wrong with ECMAScript. ['ek.ma] script. Javascript is just as long.
- mschuetz 9y ago
  ECMAScript sounds like a disease and it's unpleasant to pronounce.
9y ago

tooltalk 9y ago

I guess it depends on what your app "Javascript" does. The key idea in trademark disputes/claims is that you are probably ok as long as your mark isn't confusingly similar to a widely known valid mark by another entity/owner. So if your Javascript app has nothing whatsoever to do with the programming language or computer in general, Apple shouldn't take down your app. Eons ago Apple Computer was sued by Apple Corp (Beatle's record label) for trademark infringement. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Steve's deliberately named their computer company after the Beattles's corporate creature, being that Jobs was an ardent Beatles fan. They settled and agreed not to enter each other's business (ie, music and computer), so as not to confuse consumers. Apple is a bit hypocritical in this regard though -- in one trademark lawsuit, the company sued a mom-and-pop grocer in Poland whose website, A.pl, Apple claimed, violated Apple's trademark, not too long ago and was criticized for their insanely absurd legal tactics.

userbinator 9y ago
From the head of the linked Reddit discussion: Just received this email from Apple about my app(Html, css, javascript snippet editor). In other words, it appears to be an app that's an IDE for various syntaxes, and JavaScript is one of them. IMHO (not a lawyer, but just observation) simply mentioning a trademark in reference to your product having something to do with it is completely legit. Otherwise we'd be seeing companies like Apple go after all the smartphone case manufacturers that mention "iPhone" since that's what their product is for.
- dotancohen 9y ago
  > Otherwise we'd be seeing companies like Apple go after all the smartphone case manufacturers that mention "iPhone" since that's what their product is for. Apple does that. They have a "Made For i" accessory program, and go after third-party accessory distributors (not manufacturers) who use their trademarks without permission: https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/ https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/

luord 9y ago

Wow, Oracle is now even more evil than they were just yesterday.

foobarbazetc 9y ago
Another day ending in “y”... :)

alanh 9y ago

It makes my head hurt a little bit to think that everything after the slash in the Mime type of open web standard "text/javascript" is a trademark Oracle is actually trying to enforce

sebazzz 9y ago

I wonder what would happen if he actually asked Oracle permission to use the name. Would Oracle allow it? Would he be required to pay a fee?

consp 9y ago
> Would Oracle allow it? Yes, but only after: > Would he be required to pay a fee? Yes, it's Oracle. It will be a hefty one.

farnsworthy 9y ago

It needs a new name (that isn't "ECMAScript").

animex 9y ago

Is this Apple just doing pre-emptive due-diligence or did Oracle actually raise a flag?

hyperpallium 9y ago

Boycot "Javascript"!

Piskvorrr 9y ago
Sure: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/ (Just don't go poking around the addon internals, might be written in The-Language-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named)

smitherfield 9y ago

Nobody tell Oracle! https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/search?q=JavaScript https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/search?q=JavaScript

jacquesm 9y ago

Oracle is just acting as expected. Nice of Apple to stand up for their developers.

z3t4 9y ago

This was probably an automated script and just a precaution from Apple. I think it's safe to use the name JavaScript. For me JavaScript is ES5, eg before 2015 and EcmaScript is the new JavaScript from ES6 2015 and onwards.

tedeh 9y ago

IANAL, but why does he not just change the name to "JS" and be done with it? Edit: looks like he was suggested this in the Reddit thread and thought it was a good idea.

AngeloAnolin 9y ago

Reading this article makes me want to speed up on a project where I am migrating an application away from Oracle DB and Forms.