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Have you actually used Windows 10?? The spotlight is squarely on Facebook and it's privacy intrusions right now, but the data collection when you own the OS mus

by lsh 9y ago

Have you actually used Windows 10?? The spotlight is squarely on Facebook and it's privacy intrusions right now, but the data collection when you own the OS must be several orders of magnitude larger. Don't be so eager to forgive them. They're not hugging Linux right now because they're a Good Company trying to Do No Evil.

tyingq 9y ago
The corporate version of Windows 10 is different, which is where my experience lies. Good observation though. At a higher level, Gates seems more credible than Larry or Sergey to me. Totally biased by my history, but I'm pretty strong on that point. Gates mellowed out and seems more broadly interested in "greater good".
- lsh 9y ago
  That's interesting! I had a hell of a time turning off all the nasty intrusive bits for my friends and parents. I should take a look at this version.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    Yeah, personally, I think Windows for home users is a dying market. My wife and kids use either ChromeOS or OSX. Everything has moved to the web for younger people. Fat client apps are increasingly the exception. Very niche...like "I need Adobe tools, Photoshop, etc". Office 365 is accelerating that. No need for local Word, PowerPoint, Excel, etc.
    - derefr 9y ago
      Windows Is For Games™. Despite the existence of things like SteamOS, I don't think your average e-Sports player is going to run anything besides Windows any time soon. Windows Home/Pro is essentially "the firmware for a custom-built Xbox."
      - tyingq 9y ago
        Interesting. I am now curious about the demographics. How many Windows 10 users are there soley for either games or Photoshop, or Illustrator, for example? I instinctively feel like ChromeOS and OSX (and mobile OS variants) are going to kill Windows desktop off. But I'm also aware I might be off base.
        pjmlp 9y ago
        Maybe on US. Around here ChromeOS is a kind of rare animal hardly seen on any consumer shop, and when it appears it is usually tied to some promotion to get rid of those in stock. OS X is everywhere on northen Europe big cities, but go south or to the country side where many people dream to go over the 500€ barrier and it too becomes a rare animal.
        wor3q 9y ago
        Even if you are over 500€, there is no 'just buy a Mac' attitude. Maybe it's because a computer is a significant expense, so people value price/performance more, or maybe because schools have Windows PCs and nobody is used to OSX from young age.
        Zekio 9y ago
        Pretty sure a recent update to Wine allows you to run Photoshop in Wine on Linux
        wor3q 9y ago
        Windows still has almost 90% market share, so it's not going to be killed anytime soon. For gaming, it's pretty much only choice, Macs have no hardware to handle them, and for Linux, I've tried switch many times, and it always been a hassle. I've ended up with Ubuntu for work and Windows for everything else.
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        Currently, Windows 10 is also the only non-bullshit OS for tablets - one that makes it a productive device, instead of purely consumer one. Alas, tablets ain't very popular anyway, so I doubt this impacts Windows numbers much. I'd guess Microsoft gets most Windows sales from regular people buying regular laptops with Windows preinstalled. Most of them probably don't even know there is something else other than Windows.
- lsh 9y ago
  Yeah, for some reason I'm ambivalent about Gates and always have been. Microsoft hasn't been run by him in a long long time though.
- laumars 9y ago
  Gates has done good work since leaving MS but I wouldn't say he mellowed out towards the end of his time at Microsoft. He was still very much proactively trying to control 3rd parties. Whether it was IRC via Microsoft Chat (which was actually a pretty cool idea but it didn't belong on public IRC servers), MSN, IE Vs Netscape wars, then IE Vs HTML wars (eg ActiveX, Silver light, etc). The whole Java wars (which did eventually give us .NET so some good eventually came of it, but it took years before .NET matured). MS Office Vs open standards (eventually we got a compromise with OOXML but it still feels like the battle was lost given every other office suite used the non-propriatory ODF). And this is all without going into how he tried to destroy Linux, control UNIX, successfully destroyed competing DOS platforms (eg DR DOS), blocked OEMs / shops from selling PCs with competing OSs (or was it machines without Windows preinstalled? I forget now), ruined EeePCs and their form factors (by selling With dies at a loss), etc. I think the only reason Gates didn't try his luck with data collection was because it simply wasn't a thing back then. That said, I do still respect the guy even though I disliked his products and how he monopolised the market. Which is more than I can say about Balmer.
- gowld 9y ago
  1. Gates was bad at Microsoft 2. Gates left Microsoft. 3. Gates is good now. 4. ??? 5. Microsoft is good now. Unless there is some weird "conscious uncoupling" thing that made them both better, what could step #4 be?
CrazyCatDog 9y ago
Company histories asside, someone had to develop a hardened kernel--and they had to be big enough that the client could sue in the event of a problem. Redhat comes to mind, but I honestly can't think of a better company than MSFT to own this (and the associated libility). It makes terrific financial sense for them to take ownership, liability (and revenues) for a product class their native technology can't compete in.
derefr 9y ago
Have you used Windows 10 Server Core, or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB? There's no data collection in either of those, because they're for serious people. The Home and Pro editions, meanwhile, are effectively "Xbox OS for PCs." They turn your computer into an entertainment appliance run and maintained by Microsoft itself. Of course they collect data, just like there are data-collection agents on all the nodes of your average production system cluster. When Microsoft is the sysadmin, Microsoft needs to collect ops data. And, personally, I don't think that's a bad thing, per se. It's a choice you make. You can take control of your PC while still running Windows, if you like. (It's just a big hassle, because truly administering a modern Windows system is a big hassle.)
- oldcynic 9y ago
  > Pro edition ... Of course they collect data There's something fundamentally wrong with that to my mind, given how the Pro release of Windows has always been placed. I should not need to get an Enterprise release to be able to manage my own machine, restrict the phoning home, and control other basic features of my machine used in a professional context. I've no need of 101 features for managing 1,000 desktops and neither have many smaller businesses who are also now landed with "Xbox OS for PCs".
  - cstejerean 9y ago
    How much did you pay for Windows 10?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - grogenaut 9y ago
      Do I, as a single person, have the option of buying a non-spyware version of windows 10? I paid $175 for windows 7... I'd pay $300 for a non-spyware version of windows but I don't think I can even buy solo windows 10 enterprise. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-product-home https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-p... Nope.. I can buy pro but I can only try enterprise.
flukus 9y ago
Ubuntu is following MS lead and introducing data collection by default in 18.04. Google also have a couple of linux based options that are built with the sole purpose of collecting your data. MS for all their faults are at least still in the business of selling operating systems and not selling you.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- simion314 9y ago
  For Ubuntu is a checkbox at install, this is a big difference between that and 20 hidden switches in registry that each stop different spying code and also get reset by mistake at each update.
  - flukus 9y ago
    Sorry, but a zero tolerance policy of is the only way to stay sane. I don't have time to keep up with every policy change and update on what every app and tool I use has done lately. I ditched windows for a reason (several, but privacy was one) and I've got no intention of checking every 3 months how far down the slippery slope ubuntu has gone. And they will go down that slippery slope because it's abundantly clear that they as an organisation they don't value privacy.
    - simion314 9y ago
      You are spreading FUD, for some reason a person that has no tiem to read the privacy settings checkboxes you are aware of the latest FUD campaigns, the latest one is about the program that collects hardware info at installation time, this is not tracking you, it is an option to send hardware info upsteeam so developers have real information, now everyone has to quote the Steam survey and this source is gaming focused. Also, you can use distros based on Fedora/RedHat if you are a Canonical hater.
      - flukus 9y ago
dbasedweeb 9y ago
It’s pretty trivial to disable the data collection on the home version, and the corporate version doesn’t have it. For work Linux is perfect, for games Windows is still the better choice. Luckily nothing stops people from having both on the same box.
- NiveaGeForce 9y ago
  Windows is better for my kind of work.
partiallypro 9y ago
This is completely false and has been debunked countless times. Your telemetry data is no where near as invasive as what Facebook or Google does.
- xorcist 9y ago
  That ... is far from ok.
- StreamBright 9y ago
  Exactly. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnDWSvaQ1I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnDWSvaQ1I
Delmania 9y ago
The last I checked, Microsoft doesn't create shadow profiles of people who don't have accounts. Nor does Microsoft make it hard to turn off privacy, or sell the data to research firms in an attempt to create profiles that be used for advertising or manipulation. Also, the last I checked all this attention to Windows 10 data collection usually includes a comprehensive list of how to turn it off. Finally, when you set up Windows 10, one of the setup screens actually lists out these options and gives the user the chance to turn them off. You could argue that these should be left off by default, but I'd argue that allowing developers to collect telemetry data for debugging purposes, and forcing people to keep their computers updated is a good idea, since most normal users don't bother.

by lsh 9y ago

tyingq 9y ago

The corporate version of Windows 10 is different, which is where my experience lies. Good observation though. At a higher level, Gates seems more credible than Larry or Sergey to me. Totally biased by my history, but I'm pretty strong on that point. Gates mellowed out and seems more broadly interested in "greater good".

lsh 9y ago
That's interesting! I had a hell of a time turning off all the nasty intrusive bits for my friends and parents. I should take a look at this version.
- tyingq 9y ago
  Yeah, personally, I think Windows for home users is a dying market. My wife and kids use either ChromeOS or OSX. Everything has moved to the web for younger people. Fat client apps are increasingly the exception. Very niche...like "I need Adobe tools, Photoshop, etc". Office 365 is accelerating that. No need for local Word, PowerPoint, Excel, etc.
  - derefr 9y ago
    Windows Is For Games™. Despite the existence of things like SteamOS, I don't think your average e-Sports player is going to run anything besides Windows any time soon. Windows Home/Pro is essentially "the firmware for a custom-built Xbox."
    - tyingq 9y ago
      Interesting. I am now curious about the demographics. How many Windows 10 users are there soley for either games or Photoshop, or Illustrator, for example? I instinctively feel like ChromeOS and OSX (and mobile OS variants) are going to kill Windows desktop off. But I'm also aware I might be off base.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Maybe on US. Around here ChromeOS is a kind of rare animal hardly seen on any consumer shop, and when it appears it is usually tied to some promotion to get rid of those in stock. OS X is everywhere on northen Europe big cities, but go south or to the country side where many people dream to go over the 500€ barrier and it too becomes a rare animal.
        wor3q 9y ago
        Even if you are over 500€, there is no 'just buy a Mac' attitude. Maybe it's because a computer is a significant expense, so people value price/performance more, or maybe because schools have Windows PCs and nobody is used to OSX from young age.
      - Zekio 9y ago
        Pretty sure a recent update to Wine allows you to run Photoshop in Wine on Linux
      - wor3q 9y ago
        Windows still has almost 90% market share, so it's not going to be killed anytime soon. For gaming, it's pretty much only choice, Macs have no hardware to handle them, and for Linux, I've tried switch many times, and it always been a hassle. I've ended up with Ubuntu for work and Windows for everything else.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Currently, Windows 10 is also the only non-bullshit OS for tablets - one that makes it a productive device, instead of purely consumer one. Alas, tablets ain't very popular anyway, so I doubt this impacts Windows numbers much. I'd guess Microsoft gets most Windows sales from regular people buying regular laptops with Windows preinstalled. Most of them probably don't even know there is something else other than Windows.
lsh 9y ago
Yeah, for some reason I'm ambivalent about Gates and always have been. Microsoft hasn't been run by him in a long long time though.
laumars 9y ago
Gates has done good work since leaving MS but I wouldn't say he mellowed out towards the end of his time at Microsoft. He was still very much proactively trying to control 3rd parties. Whether it was IRC via Microsoft Chat (which was actually a pretty cool idea but it didn't belong on public IRC servers), MSN, IE Vs Netscape wars, then IE Vs HTML wars (eg ActiveX, Silver light, etc). The whole Java wars (which did eventually give us .NET so some good eventually came of it, but it took years before .NET matured). MS Office Vs open standards (eventually we got a compromise with OOXML but it still feels like the battle was lost given every other office suite used the non-propriatory ODF). And this is all without going into how he tried to destroy Linux, control UNIX, successfully destroyed competing DOS platforms (eg DR DOS), blocked OEMs / shops from selling PCs with competing OSs (or was it machines without Windows preinstalled? I forget now), ruined EeePCs and their form factors (by selling With dies at a loss), etc. I think the only reason Gates didn't try his luck with data collection was because it simply wasn't a thing back then. That said, I do still respect the guy even though I disliked his products and how he monopolised the market. Which is more than I can say about Balmer.
gowld 9y ago
1. Gates was bad at Microsoft 2. Gates left Microsoft. 3. Gates is good now. 4. ??? 5. Microsoft is good now. Unless there is some weird "conscious uncoupling" thing that made them both better, what could step #4 be?

CrazyCatDog 9y ago

Company histories asside, someone had to develop a hardened kernel--and they had to be big enough that the client could sue in the event of a problem. Redhat comes to mind, but I honestly can't think of a better company than MSFT to own this (and the associated libility). It makes terrific financial sense for them to take ownership, liability (and revenues) for a product class their native technology can't compete in.

derefr 9y ago

Have you used Windows 10 Server Core, or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB? There's no data collection in either of those, because they're for serious people. The Home and Pro editions, meanwhile, are effectively "Xbox OS for PCs." They turn your computer into an entertainment appliance run and maintained by Microsoft itself. Of course they collect data, just like there are data-collection agents on all the nodes of your average production system cluster. When Microsoft is the sysadmin, Microsoft needs to collect ops data. And, personally, I don't think that's a bad thing, per se. It's a choice you make. You can take control of your PC while still running Windows, if you like. (It's just a big hassle, because truly administering a modern Windows system is a big hassle.)

oldcynic 9y ago
> Pro edition ... Of course they collect data There's something fundamentally wrong with that to my mind, given how the Pro release of Windows has always been placed. I should not need to get an Enterprise release to be able to manage my own machine, restrict the phoning home, and control other basic features of my machine used in a professional context. I've no need of 101 features for managing 1,000 desktops and neither have many smaller businesses who are also now landed with "Xbox OS for PCs".
- cstejerean 9y ago
  How much did you pay for Windows 10?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - grogenaut 9y ago
    Do I, as a single person, have the option of buying a non-spyware version of windows 10? I paid $175 for windows 7... I'd pay $300 for a non-spyware version of windows but I don't think I can even buy solo windows 10 enterprise. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-product-home https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-p... Nope.. I can buy pro but I can only try enterprise.

flukus 9y ago

Ubuntu is following MS lead and introducing data collection by default in 18.04. Google also have a couple of linux based options that are built with the sole purpose of collecting your data. MS for all their faults are at least still in the business of selling operating systems and not selling you.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
simion314 9y ago
For Ubuntu is a checkbox at install, this is a big difference between that and 20 hidden switches in registry that each stop different spying code and also get reset by mistake at each update.
- flukus 9y ago
  Sorry, but a zero tolerance policy of is the only way to stay sane. I don't have time to keep up with every policy change and update on what every app and tool I use has done lately. I ditched windows for a reason (several, but privacy was one) and I've got no intention of checking every 3 months how far down the slippery slope ubuntu has gone. And they will go down that slippery slope because it's abundantly clear that they as an organisation they don't value privacy.
  - simion314 9y ago
    You are spreading FUD, for some reason a person that has no tiem to read the privacy settings checkboxes you are aware of the latest FUD campaigns, the latest one is about the program that collects hardware info at installation time, this is not tracking you, it is an option to send hardware info upsteeam so developers have real information, now everyone has to quote the Steam survey and this source is gaming focused. Also, you can use distros based on Fedora/RedHat if you are a Canonical hater.
    - flukus 9y ago

dbasedweeb 9y ago

It’s pretty trivial to disable the data collection on the home version, and the corporate version doesn’t have it. For work Linux is perfect, for games Windows is still the better choice. Luckily nothing stops people from having both on the same box.

NiveaGeForce 9y ago
Windows is better for my kind of work.

partiallypro 9y ago

This is completely false and has been debunked countless times. Your telemetry data is no where near as invasive as what Facebook or Google does.

xorcist 9y ago
That ... is far from ok.
StreamBright 9y ago
Exactly. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnDWSvaQ1I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnDWSvaQ1I

Delmania 9y ago

The last I checked, Microsoft doesn't create shadow profiles of people who don't have accounts. Nor does Microsoft make it hard to turn off privacy, or sell the data to research firms in an attempt to create profiles that be used for advertising or manipulation. Also, the last I checked all this attention to Windows 10 data collection usually includes a comprehensive list of how to turn it off. Finally, when you set up Windows 10, one of the setup screens actually lists out these options and gives the user the chance to turn them off. You could argue that these should be left off by default, but I'd argue that allowing developers to collect telemetry data for debugging purposes, and forcing people to keep their computers updated is a good idea, since most normal users don't bother.