9 ms·

Is this worth it? Is this worth having the ability to pick between 10,000 different toasters via internet and have them delivered to your doorstep in 2 days? S

• Dylan16807 9y ago
  We can have both. Amazon isn't going to implode if they pay some extra pennies for reasonable working conditions.
  • tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    I don't think we can, companies like Amazon can't stop thinking about costs, it's in their DNA, it's what they live and breath. Distribution is all about margins, if you can't keep costs low then you are toast, they are always utterly miserable places to work.
    • Panoramix 9y ago
      You can force them to give provide conditions, or else they have to pay monumental fines / managers go to prison, etc. They will get the point.
      • 794CD01 9y ago
        Is the point to use robots? Because I'm pretty sure they already know that.
    • Pyxl101 9y ago
      The only way to make reasonable business decisions is to think about costs in any company.
  • phil248 9y ago
    Why would Amazon pay one more penny than they have to? To win a nice guys award? To get a warm, squishy feeling inside? There is precisely one solution to this problem, and it is us electing leaders who change the rules in favor of the working masses, and enforce those rules mercilessly against exploitative employers.
    • needToSay 9y ago
      It's easier to throw the rainbow homo propaganda flag and call it a day.
    • snoman 9y ago
      People deride unions, but collective bargaining has also been a very effective solution in the past.
      • gkya 9y ago
        And that's why people deride unions. It's a defence mechanism.
        • untog 9y ago
          ...why would a defence mechanism for worker health be something people deride?
          • gkya 9y ago
            To weaken it, so that it has less people and less power, and is not respected by the rest of the population.
    • pjmorris 9y ago
      Why would anyone with sufficient money and organization to support a candidate support one who would change the rules in favor of the working masses?
      • 9y ago
  • andrepd 9y ago
    No we can't, Amazon is popular because it's cheap because its hyperoptimised. And if not anything, there are other major issues other than worker's rights (which are bad enough).
  • sharpercoder 9y ago
    We don't need both. 10 toasters is more then enough to fulfill our needs.
• tylergetsay 9y ago
  If you sell toasters then yes
• evv 9y ago
  > Sometimes I look at society as a complete organ, with a hypothetical ability to make cohesive decisions for itself. And I think, it is making extremely self-destructive choices. One of my favorite philosophical thought experiments! I'd argue that that society is an organism comprised of several governments/companies which act as the organs. I usually observe each organ making decisions to optimize its use of money, (or blood in this metaphor!). It is usually clear that these decisions have net negative effects on us individual humans (cells) in the organism. But the question remains, when each company and government optimizes for money instead of individual health, is that healthy for the success of society, the broader organism?
  • ttroyr 9y ago
    The trouble is not the decision to optimize for financial or physical health, the issue is that Amazon seems to see some people as part of its organism (long-term entity), such as its engineering talent, and other people, like these poor warehouse workers, as a temporary part of a future robotic optimization. Companies like Apple value their lowest level employees because nobody is sure that computers will competently replicate sympathetic customer service. Amazon doesn't need its warehouse workers' soft skills, only their muscle and basic logic.
• throwa_way_ 9y ago
  Worth it for me, so I continue to buy stuff on Amazon. If the workers don't like it they can work elsewhere or start their own Amazon.
  • bbddg 9y ago
    Do you believe there should be minimum standards for working conditions?
    • nv-vn 9y ago
      To the degree that workers are not your slaves or property, yes. They should be free to decide who to work for, and employers cannot treat people as their property. But as long as there's informed consent, most things are pretty fair.
      • bbddg 9y ago
        So you are against things like paid time off, 40-hour work week, weekends off, workplace safety/health standards, ect.?
        • wooter 9y ago
          all things that exist without the government and which vary wildly amongst professions. i work far more than 40 hours and don't take most weekends - as I am entitled to.
          • bbddg 9y ago
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act_of_1938 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act_of_19...
        • thegrimmest 9y ago
          Can I say "yes" without being down-voted? I'd like the government not to limit free association of moral agents. Two people should be free to work together under whatever arrangement they voluntarily enter into. All our current system of labour and union law has accomplished is the offshoring of suffering. We've not gotten rid of the existence of, nor our reliance on abhorrent working conditions. We've just moved them elsewhere, in the process wasting tremendous amounts of energy (not to mention the associated destruction of the environment) shipping things to and from more lenient jurisdictions. I propose that if the working conditions we rely on were present under our noses, we would do more to try to actually mediate our dependence their production.
• guiomie 9y ago
  Guilty, I bought a robot vacuum on Amazon and used it once.
• njarboe 9y ago
  And for some reason one can only buy two sizes of socks. For shoe sizes 6-12 (regular) and 12-16 (large). A sock that fits 6 through 12 shoes sizes? Capitalism failure.
  • HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
    Since we're talking about Amazon and you're talking about sock sizes and I remember Alec Baldwin ordering "Bresciani's" on the first Alexa commercials: https://www.amazon.com/Bresciani-Cashmere-Over-Calf-Dress/dp/B001UISDDC https://www.amazon.com/Bresciani-Cashmere-Over-Calf-Dress/dp... In multiple sizes...
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  • tomlor 9y ago
    I thought the same thing until I discovered H&M socks. Say what you will about their labor practices - at least they make socks that fit my feet. www.hm.com/us/product/92297
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• pascalxus 9y ago
  It's not like people's entire paycheck is going toward materialism. In the US, nationally, roughly 70% of consumer spending is essentials (more or less): housing, transportation and food.
• disordinary 9y ago
  Other countries have proper labor and employment laws. This wouldn't be allowed in the bulk of the rest of the west.
• andrepd 9y ago
  It's not only worker's rights (which is bad enough). It's many things, for example the environment. For instance, the amount of fuel burned, and carbon emitted, to deliver an item in 2 days instead of 3 is 40% higher (sorry I don't have a citation right now). We're boiling our planet alive for the slightest of conveniences! It's bonkers! Like we're filling the oceans with trash for using completely superfluous plastic packaging that improves our lives in the most negligible of ways. All of this to sell ever increasing (because current market capitalism demands constant "growth") piles of crap.
• aaron695 9y ago
  In your perfect world you'd sack all the workers and have less toasers to choose from so you can feel better about yourself. Cause to me this is the logical outcome of your comment unless you can explain what else you mean. You don't mean for instance a universal income, it has nothing to do with toaster choice.
• paxys 9y ago
  What's your solution then? Are you implying that manual laborers had a better time at any point in history before Amazon existed?
  • aswanson 9y ago
    I did manual labor up until I finished college. I never felt forced to piss in bottles to keep any of those jobs.
• axaxs 9y ago
  I am by no means siding with Amazon - check my post history. But as far as I know, there exist state and federal laws covering this. Even in my podunk state, law requires an uninterrupted 15 minute break per 4 hours worked, and even guides when that time must be allocated. Anything over 6 hours must be given an unpaid 30 minute meal period. Not perfect, but we aren't pissing in bottles.
• dlwdlw 9y ago
  You might find the film Samsara quite interesting. It's a timeline documentary showing how people live all over the world. Timelapses show the interconnectedness of things that happen too slowly for us to appreciate. Like star trails. The film evokes a sense of how things are connected and all the suffering we create due to a desire to alleviate suffering.
• FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
  This is far from being unique to Amazon and from my experience constant pressures like these are prevalent in many low to mid-income paying jobs. I briefly worked as an Insurance Claims Representative for Farmer's Insurance. At the time, I lost my place, my car died and I was running low on funds so I had to take the first thing available. The job offered a free car and the first 4 weeks were spent in training. As someone who had previously only been exposed to the intricacies of white collar work, I found the whole experience to be quite eye-opening. Nearly every claims rep I met looked or acted as if they were chronically stressed, some hid it well while others wore it pretty plainly. I later found out that they were always on edge because on any given day, one mistake could cost them their chance at a raise, bonus or any cost of living increase for the year. Farmer's had an elaborate points system used to determine eligibility for pay raises (basically cost-of-living increases). We were mobile and had to investigate 3 claims per day without exception. Our daily assignments and locations were algorithimically generated by very substandard software (didn't fully take into account variations in traffic over time and wasn't based on reliable, curent data in the first place). It was in Los Angeles, so traffic and distances between appointments could be immense. Yet, we weren't allowed any exceptions. If we didn't make one of our appointments, depending on the size of the claim, that could disqualify you from a bonus or pay raise. Too many (5-8 per year) could jeopardize your job. The same went for providing iaccurate estimates. So if you missed something (more realisistically paid out too much without trying to deny responsibility) on one flagship luxury or sports car (7 series BMW, S Mercedes, etc.), you'd likely lose your bonus. It's like every day is a chance for you to lose while I feel like for many of us here on HN, each day is a chance for us to earn a bonus. UPS drivers are under the same pressure. That's why they leave packages outside or in the lobby of buildings. If they don't complete their algorithmically generated deliveries for the day, they're dinged. They can never question the software either. Customer service is another field with similar pressures. Being under that daily constant fear and pressure for such little reward must be so mentally taxing, like if one was still in the food chain
  • FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
    I should add that a couple of years ago, I received a check in the mail for several hundred dollars due to a class action settlement launched on behalf of the Claims team. Management really pushed for employees to hit that 3 claims a day mark , granting overtime in the most limited of circumstances by suggesting that we could eat and be driving to an appointment during the lunch hour. In effect, they encouraged us to skip lunch if we needed to and/or to eat while driving. Remember, this is coming from an automotive insurance company. As someone who only worked there for a month, it was a pretty nice unexpected bonus.
• profalseidol 9y ago
  Such is the way of capitalism.