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The possibility that viruses can benefit a host or cellular species is interesting. I have wondered whether the common cold virus(es) may impart some benefit to

The possibility that viruses can benefit a host or cellular species is interesting. I have wondered whether the common cold virus(es) may impart some benefit to humans? Are we symbiotic with mutualism? Could they provide some defense or warning against other diseases in the environment? Just speculating.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Interesting idea; it strikes me there's a kinda mutualism. If outsiders are often hostile, as interlopers won't have immunities the local group have, the incomers will potentially suffer a degree of debilitation - that is perhaps sufficient to give the local group the edge in battle, or to cement friendship through nurturing the non-fatally sick.
- kortex 9y ago
  I have a theory, more of a headcannon really, that coughing and sneezing actually evolved (in part) to deliberately spread infectious agents, as opposed to less-atomizing means of clearing mucus. Airborn viruses are typically non-lethal (otherwise it would wipe out the species readily), and it would have the effect of spreading these and creating survival pressure which culls the weak, freeing up resources and enhancing selection. The anti-outsider effects would also be a perk.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    I like it, thanks for sharing.
ItsMe000001 9y ago
Anecdote time. I'm not going to write a lengthy comment (that nobody reads anyway), suffice it to say I suffered from (clinically tested) chronic heavy metal poisoning and got chelation therapy (chelators DMPS and DMSA) with success far exceeding what the doctors expected (pretty much all problems I had that were attributed - including by myself - to age, computer/desk work, "that's life" - went away. Towards the point when it all got too much, forcing me to acknowledge something was wrong (after suffering a tiny bit more and more over decades), I had ended up in a situation that when I got a cold (in winter) it just would not stop until May. Up to this point one might just suspect that well, the immune system suffers so of course you get more sick. However, during the years of therapy I found that each time I still got a cold A LOT of "stuff" was happening and the symptoms that I associated with the removal of the heavy metals would increase significantly during that time. Also, I found that when it got really bad when I injected DMPS I got much better! Which (sane) doctor would recommend injecting a chelator when you got a cold or stomach flu??? (Disclaimer: Of course, the chelator only worked because of the underlying condition, obviously I'm not saying that it is an antidote against flu symptoms.) Note that in my case the area of the upper jaw and around the nose was heavily impacted, unseen even in panorama x-ray the bone matrix up there was in such a bad state that when a doctor wanted to inject something into the buccal mucosa the needle went straight into the jaw bone in several places. He injected chelator and a lot of stuff started happening (positive, self-repair), a year later the needle could not penetrate the bone anywhere. Each time I got a cold the entire upper jaw bone area hurt, that's why I suspected a connection and at some point, when it got pretty bad (overall symptoms) tried the chelator during a stomach flu, with immediate success. I (now) have a basic background (I'd say two years university study equivalent) in biology, anatomy, physiology, chemistry, org. chemistry, bio chemistry, statistics (medical studies and biology focus), neuroscience. While that does not help me to say anything with any level of authority at all, especially since I'm my only subject of "research", it sets a lower threshold for the kinds of stuff I'm willing/able to believe I'd say. I see no contradiction to what I learned in these "esoteric" theories. Still, my conclusion based on (kind of extreme) personal experience is that infections play a role that goes far beyond "I'm sick". I stopped taking cold medicine as far as I could bear it because I felt (without prove, purely subjective) that this removed harmful stuff (other than the bacteria/viruses). I would not be surprised to see negative long-term effects after we really "cure" the common cold and nobody gets sick any more. "Can't we just core the cold for good?" -- in the past I would have agreed wholeheartedly, but now I say let's be very cautious about seemingly "simple" interventions. There is much much more going on that we have not even started to grasp.
- no-s 9y ago
  My wife (a critical care RN) asks “how did you get heavy metal poisoning?” And also “approximately how old were you when you started therapy?”
  - ItsMe000001 9y ago
    I would not like to discuss the first question in a public forum. I was below 40 when it was discovered - the total amount was unknown (how much is stored), but fortunately (not common for low-dose chronic exposure) I had significantly elevated levels on blood, urine (well, of course) and also in hair. The biggest effect from the doctor's point of view was when the endocrinologist found that my double-size right thyroid with a 5 mm nodule had shrunk back to normal and the nodule had disappeared, which I had had for decades. It could be a attributed to the chelation therapy because during the first year already the tissues surrounding the that part of the thyroid became very active for a few weeks after each DMPS injection. That was the reason why I went to the endocrinologist again in the first place: I had suspected - hoped - that this had happened. Since a nice biomedical-imaging supported proof was worth a lot more than everything else, because saying "I always had more and more severe and longer-duration colds from year to year and now it has all stopped" and a long list of other things just don't sound very impressive (although the impact is much greater, I never had thyroid trouble, the condition was just there).
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  Reminds me of the movement to grow vegetable in shipping containers. Perhaps we have understood the full equation of plant nutrition in a closed system, perhaps not. I will say I suspect your point will have a hard time gaining traction. I wonder if there is an evolutionary advantage for memes that promote deconstructionism, at least in this phase of history where there is so much low hanging fruit of things to deconstruct. A person who believes a lettuce plant can be fully understood in a 1000 page report will endeavor to write that report and build technology from it. Someone who believes there is an unknowable (in the near term) essential component to thriving will tend to say “let’s stick as close to tradition as we can... don’t know what we might miss.” The payoff for the deconstructionist is invention, fortune, and an audience. The payoff for the anti-deconstructionist is better health, perhaps a greater sensitivity to what’s real, and a lot of blank stares.
danieltillett 9y ago
Yes, but not for the reason you might think. Europeans were able to conquer the new world civilisations like the Inca and Aztecs (and many others) because they brought their special weapons - smallpox and influenza. These viruses and their European hosts did well out of this symbiotic relationship and it is almost certainly the reason we are now writing in the language of a smallish European island.
- ModernMech 9y ago
  Very relevant to your point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
kryptiskt 9y ago
A human's stomach lining is designed to nestle bacteriophages (those viruses that looks like moon landers that reproduce in bacteria) in it and they make sure that the bacteria population in the stomach stays put.
- neuronic 9y ago
  Do what you want but I don't particularly enjoy calling anything natural "designed".
  - salawat 9y ago
    It's valid. To say something is "designed" for something can mean that it has a certain characteristic as facilitates its primary function. No need to have the annoying question of a designer attached.
- dennis_jeeves 9y ago
  >A human's stomach lining is designed to nestle bacteriophages Source please?
saalweachter 9y ago
Depressing facts of evolution time. Evolution will totally evolve systems where something is both necessary for the system to keep function and detrimental to the system. If you evolve in the context of "there are tons of viruses just all over the goddamn place", even if the viruses are constantly harming you, there is no reason your body shouldn't come to depend on them for some functions. Eg, the amino acids liberated from your immune system breaking them down could be a vital precursor to some protein or another, even as they continue to hurt you. For a computer example, imagine writing programs to run on a computer that suffers frequent, intermittent power failures. You could very easily end up with a program with memory leaks that don't matter because the power failures happen too frequently for enough memory to leak for it to be a problem. The frequent power failures are bad, and you would prefer to eliminate them, but you can't because the program has evolved in the context of frequent power failures and can't run for long without them (hell, maybe the memory leaks will end up corrupting on-disk data if you fill up main memory and your hacky memory management system begins double-allocating).
- kortex 9y ago
  Brilliant analogy. Especially when you consider how heavily nature conserves and multi-utilizes molecules and structures, it's not much of a stretch to see how what starts as a side effect can quickly become an essential machination.
- ssivark 9y ago
  Guess what... one might call such aggressive growth of memory consumption as a “cancer” which kills a system by taking up all available resources! And that cancerous behavior would never have become dangerous till some other “problem” was “solved” :-)

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

Interesting idea; it strikes me there's a kinda mutualism. If outsiders are often hostile, as interlopers won't have immunities the local group have, the incomers will potentially suffer a degree of debilitation - that is perhaps sufficient to give the local group the edge in battle, or to cement friendship through nurturing the non-fatally sick.

kortex 9y ago
I have a theory, more of a headcannon really, that coughing and sneezing actually evolved (in part) to deliberately spread infectious agents, as opposed to less-atomizing means of clearing mucus. Airborn viruses are typically non-lethal (otherwise it would wipe out the species readily), and it would have the effect of spreading these and creating survival pressure which culls the weak, freeing up resources and enhancing selection. The anti-outsider effects would also be a perk.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  I like it, thanks for sharing.

ItsMe000001 9y ago

Anecdote time. I'm not going to write a lengthy comment (that nobody reads anyway), suffice it to say I suffered from (clinically tested) chronic heavy metal poisoning and got chelation therapy (chelators DMPS and DMSA) with success far exceeding what the doctors expected (pretty much all problems I had that were attributed - including by myself - to age, computer/desk work, "that's life" - went away. Towards the point when it all got too much, forcing me to acknowledge something was wrong (after suffering a tiny bit more and more over decades), I had ended up in a situation that when I got a cold (in winter) it just would not stop until May. Up to this point one might just suspect that well, the immune system suffers so of course you get more sick. However, during the years of therapy I found that each time I still got a cold A LOT of "stuff" was happening and the symptoms that I associated with the removal of the heavy metals would increase significantly during that time. Also, I found that when it got really bad when I injected DMPS I got much better! Which (sane) doctor would recommend injecting a chelator when you got a cold or stomach flu??? (Disclaimer: Of course, the chelator only worked because of the underlying condition, obviously I'm not saying that it is an antidote against flu symptoms.) Note that in my case the area of the upper jaw and around the nose was heavily impacted, unseen even in panorama x-ray the bone matrix up there was in such a bad state that when a doctor wanted to inject something into the buccal mucosa the needle went straight into the jaw bone in several places. He injected chelator and a lot of stuff started happening (positive, self-repair), a year later the needle could not penetrate the bone anywhere. Each time I got a cold the entire upper jaw bone area hurt, that's why I suspected a connection and at some point, when it got pretty bad (overall symptoms) tried the chelator during a stomach flu, with immediate success. I (now) have a basic background (I'd say two years university study equivalent) in biology, anatomy, physiology, chemistry, org. chemistry, bio chemistry, statistics (medical studies and biology focus), neuroscience. While that does not help me to say anything with any level of authority at all, especially since I'm my only subject of "research", it sets a lower threshold for the kinds of stuff I'm willing/able to believe I'd say. I see no contradiction to what I learned in these "esoteric" theories. Still, my conclusion based on (kind of extreme) personal experience is that infections play a role that goes far beyond "I'm sick". I stopped taking cold medicine as far as I could bear it because I felt (without prove, purely subjective) that this removed harmful stuff (other than the bacteria/viruses). I would not be surprised to see negative long-term effects after we really "cure" the common cold and nobody gets sick any more. "Can't we just core the cold for good?" -- in the past I would have agreed wholeheartedly, but now I say let's be very cautious about seemingly "simple" interventions. There is much much more going on that we have not even started to grasp.

no-s 9y ago
My wife (a critical care RN) asks “how did you get heavy metal poisoning?” And also “approximately how old were you when you started therapy?”
- ItsMe000001 9y ago
  I would not like to discuss the first question in a public forum. I was below 40 when it was discovered - the total amount was unknown (how much is stored), but fortunately (not common for low-dose chronic exposure) I had significantly elevated levels on blood, urine (well, of course) and also in hair. The biggest effect from the doctor's point of view was when the endocrinologist found that my double-size right thyroid with a 5 mm nodule had shrunk back to normal and the nodule had disappeared, which I had had for decades. It could be a attributed to the chelation therapy because during the first year already the tissues surrounding the that part of the thyroid became very active for a few weeks after each DMPS injection. That was the reason why I went to the endocrinologist again in the first place: I had suspected - hoped - that this had happened. Since a nice biomedical-imaging supported proof was worth a lot more than everything else, because saying "I always had more and more severe and longer-duration colds from year to year and now it has all stopped" and a long list of other things just don't sound very impressive (although the impact is much greater, I never had thyroid trouble, the condition was just there).
erikpukinskis 9y ago
Reminds me of the movement to grow vegetable in shipping containers. Perhaps we have understood the full equation of plant nutrition in a closed system, perhaps not. I will say I suspect your point will have a hard time gaining traction. I wonder if there is an evolutionary advantage for memes that promote deconstructionism, at least in this phase of history where there is so much low hanging fruit of things to deconstruct. A person who believes a lettuce plant can be fully understood in a 1000 page report will endeavor to write that report and build technology from it. Someone who believes there is an unknowable (in the near term) essential component to thriving will tend to say “let’s stick as close to tradition as we can... don’t know what we might miss.” The payoff for the deconstructionist is invention, fortune, and an audience. The payoff for the anti-deconstructionist is better health, perhaps a greater sensitivity to what’s real, and a lot of blank stares.

danieltillett 9y ago

Yes, but not for the reason you might think. Europeans were able to conquer the new world civilisations like the Inca and Aztecs (and many others) because they brought their special weapons - smallpox and influenza. These viruses and their European hosts did well out of this symbiotic relationship and it is almost certainly the reason we are now writing in the language of a smallish European island.

ModernMech 9y ago
Very relevant to your point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

kryptiskt 9y ago

A human's stomach lining is designed to nestle bacteriophages (those viruses that looks like moon landers that reproduce in bacteria) in it and they make sure that the bacteria population in the stomach stays put.

neuronic 9y ago
Do what you want but I don't particularly enjoy calling anything natural "designed".
- salawat 9y ago
  It's valid. To say something is "designed" for something can mean that it has a certain characteristic as facilitates its primary function. No need to have the annoying question of a designer attached.
dennis_jeeves 9y ago
>A human's stomach lining is designed to nestle bacteriophages Source please?

saalweachter 9y ago

Depressing facts of evolution time. Evolution will totally evolve systems where something is both necessary for the system to keep function and detrimental to the system. If you evolve in the context of "there are tons of viruses just all over the goddamn place", even if the viruses are constantly harming you, there is no reason your body shouldn't come to depend on them for some functions. Eg, the amino acids liberated from your immune system breaking them down could be a vital precursor to some protein or another, even as they continue to hurt you. For a computer example, imagine writing programs to run on a computer that suffers frequent, intermittent power failures. You could very easily end up with a program with memory leaks that don't matter because the power failures happen too frequently for enough memory to leak for it to be a problem. The frequent power failures are bad, and you would prefer to eliminate them, but you can't because the program has evolved in the context of frequent power failures and can't run for long without them (hell, maybe the memory leaks will end up corrupting on-disk data if you fill up main memory and your hacky memory management system begins double-allocating).

kortex 9y ago
Brilliant analogy. Especially when you consider how heavily nature conserves and multi-utilizes molecules and structures, it's not much of a stretch to see how what starts as a side effect can quickly become an essential machination.
ssivark 9y ago
Guess what... one might call such aggressive growth of memory consumption as a “cancer” which kills a system by taking up all available resources! And that cancerous behavior would never have become dangerous till some other “problem” was “solved” :-)