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>I’ve never understood what the employee gets out of it The intelligence services have done a great deal of research into the persona of the press leaker/Wikil

by yodon 9y ago

>I’ve never understood what the employee gets out of it The intelligence services have done a great deal of research into the persona of the press leaker/Wikileaks leaker (as distinct from the more traditional espionage leaker). A common trait is for the press leaker to be either highly over-qualified for their job or believe themselves to be over-qualified for their job. The belief coming out of that research is a sense of being under appreciated and a deep need to be recognized by someone (even themselves) for something they’ve done is the primary motivation for this class of leaker. The “leaking good and important things” blanket that the leaks are wrapped in then becomes a secondary factor that is used by the leaker to justify their actions to themselves in their quest for the recognition they need. I doubt if corporate press leakers have been studied as heavily as intelligence sector leakers, but the chances are good there are some similar motivations at play.

gameswithgo 9y ago
>The “leaking good and important things” blanket that the leaks are wrapped in then becomes a secondary factor that is used by the leaker to justify Sounds like how a sociopath would interpret the motivations of a good person.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > the motivations of a good person Edward Snowden and someone who leaks an upcoming iPhone's rounded edges are not in the same category.
DINKDINK 9y ago
>research into the persona of the press leaker Source?
- yodon 9y ago
  I’ve been looking for a source to cite on this and my google-fu isn’t pulling it up. Most of the multiple discussions I’ve read on this research were probably around 18 months ago. I’m pretty sure some of the work has been discussed on HN before so hopefully someone else will be able to pull up a link.
- Satam 9y ago
  This talks about at least a few of things that OP mentioned https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol-61-no-2/pdfs/why-spy-why-leak.pdf https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...
IBM 9y ago
I can come up with plausible reasons for why intelligence leakers do what they do (sense of duty, serving public interest, etc). I can't come up with any for an Apple employee. The leaks an Apple employee makes is about inconsequential stuff like what features the next iPhone will have. It's not even in the same ballpark as someone who is leaking something illegal going on at the company or someone at Facebook leaking the Boz memo, for example.
- wellboy 9y ago
  What if the leaker is offered $100,000?
  - IBM 9y ago
    I addressed that in a comment below. It makes sense for an employee of a supplier in Asia to leak for money, it makes less sense for an employee in Cupertino. Also somehow I doubt that newsrooms are making enough money to pay $100,000 (or any money for that matter) for random tidbits about products that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Its Money one of the classic reasons to leak
  - jlgaddis 9y ago
    Are media organizations like 9to5mac (mentioned in Apple's memo) paying Apple insiders for the information they provide? Personally, I wouldn't think that the leakers were getting paid. Even if they were, I imagine the amount that these particular online web sites are able to pay is very much -- especially when compared to the average Apple employee's salary. This makes me think that money isn't the primary motivating factor, if it is a factor at all.
    - ebullientocelot 9y ago
      I agree that money probably isn't the thing. I would imagine the average Apple engineer would realize that the payment for leaking would have to be massive to offset the damage to career / loss of earnings from the damned good job they already have. Maybe it's the sense of getting away with something? Like a super lame, mundane version of Thomas Crown--life is going well in pretty much every category so raise a little hell just to see if you can?
jadedhacker 9y ago
I'm a little skeptical. The intelligence services would say something that would make you skeptical of the motivations of leakers. If they're selfishly motivated the public doesn't mind them being locked up and put into isolation and tortured in ways that don't leave a mark. The leakers that come to mind immediately are Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning whom both suffered greatly for their leaks (Snowden had to leave his life behind and Manning was kept in isolation and had her medical needs neglected amongst other things). While they both may have wanted to be recognized as having done something good, they also clearly wanted to let the public know what the government was doing in their name.
- walshemj 9y ago
  No you can read the declassified analysis of why people leak on the CIA website https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol-61-no-2/pdfs/why-spy-why-leak.pdf https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...
  - gameswithgo 9y ago
    Why does your response start with the word No?
  - wonton2 9y ago
    The point, I think, was that CIA is biased, not that they came to these results. You cannot really trust their research, since they analyze their «enemies». It is like when a skin care company cites that «9 out of 10 said this is the best skin cream (in a survey of 30 people)»
    - rockinghigh 9y ago
      The CIA is interested in leakers because it uses them to get information from foreign intelligence agencies. They are not enemies.
      - 9y ago
samstave 9y ago
Dear Lordy, this is such a wonderful read. The cyberpunk dna in me thanks you for this.
tyingq 9y ago
Depends on the leak. Leaking new product info is different from leaking incriminating info. And I'm sure there's lots of grey in between those two extremes. Susan Fowler's motivations seemed pretty pure.
walrus01 9y ago
> >I’ve never understood what the employee gets out of it > The intelligence services have done a great deal of research into the persona of the press leaker/Wikileaks leaker Taught in a counterintelligence 101 type class, there's generally four types of intel leak. Not always mutually exclusive, sometimes there's a combination of factors influencing the behavior of any single person. MICE Money - for financial gain. Robert Hanssen would be one example. Ideology - Typical cold war stuff, a person that deeply believes in the political ideology of power group A becomes a mole inside opposing political group B. Conscience - Something happening is deeply wrong and unjust in the view of the leaker. Snowden. Ego - Sometimes combined with the Money part. The persons receiving the intel find a way to flatter the ego of the leaker, about how important their role is on a grand strategic level.
tomtimtall 9y ago
It doesn’t seem to far fetched to speculate that money is involved.
bitL 9y ago
I think here you should probably distinguish between leaking a cool tech gadget plans/prototypes (those are likely ego driven or just by childish joy of sharing), and those leaks that expose some atrocities (that might be instead moral outrage-based).

by yodon 9y ago

gameswithgo 9y ago

>The “leaking good and important things” blanket that the leaks are wrapped in then becomes a secondary factor that is used by the leaker to justify Sounds like how a sociopath would interpret the motivations of a good person.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> the motivations of a good person Edward Snowden and someone who leaks an upcoming iPhone's rounded edges are not in the same category.

DINKDINK 9y ago

>research into the persona of the press leaker Source?

yodon 9y ago
I’ve been looking for a source to cite on this and my google-fu isn’t pulling it up. Most of the multiple discussions I’ve read on this research were probably around 18 months ago. I’m pretty sure some of the work has been discussed on HN before so hopefully someone else will be able to pull up a link.
Satam 9y ago
This talks about at least a few of things that OP mentioned https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol-61-no-2/pdfs/why-spy-why-leak.pdf https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...

IBM 9y ago

I can come up with plausible reasons for why intelligence leakers do what they do (sense of duty, serving public interest, etc). I can't come up with any for an Apple employee. The leaks an Apple employee makes is about inconsequential stuff like what features the next iPhone will have. It's not even in the same ballpark as someone who is leaking something illegal going on at the company or someone at Facebook leaking the Boz memo, for example.

wellboy 9y ago
What if the leaker is offered $100,000?
- IBM 9y ago
  I addressed that in a comment below. It makes sense for an employee of a supplier in Asia to leak for money, it makes less sense for an employee in Cupertino. Also somehow I doubt that newsrooms are making enough money to pay $100,000 (or any money for that matter) for random tidbits about products that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
walshemj 9y ago
Its Money one of the classic reasons to leak
- jlgaddis 9y ago
  Are media organizations like 9to5mac (mentioned in Apple's memo) paying Apple insiders for the information they provide? Personally, I wouldn't think that the leakers were getting paid. Even if they were, I imagine the amount that these particular online web sites are able to pay is very much -- especially when compared to the average Apple employee's salary. This makes me think that money isn't the primary motivating factor, if it is a factor at all.
  - ebullientocelot 9y ago
    I agree that money probably isn't the thing. I would imagine the average Apple engineer would realize that the payment for leaking would have to be massive to offset the damage to career / loss of earnings from the damned good job they already have. Maybe it's the sense of getting away with something? Like a super lame, mundane version of Thomas Crown--life is going well in pretty much every category so raise a little hell just to see if you can?

jadedhacker 9y ago

I'm a little skeptical. The intelligence services would say something that would make you skeptical of the motivations of leakers. If they're selfishly motivated the public doesn't mind them being locked up and put into isolation and tortured in ways that don't leave a mark. The leakers that come to mind immediately are Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning whom both suffered greatly for their leaks (Snowden had to leave his life behind and Manning was kept in isolation and had her medical needs neglected amongst other things). While they both may have wanted to be recognized as having done something good, they also clearly wanted to let the public know what the government was doing in their name.

walshemj 9y ago
No you can read the declassified analysis of why people leak on the CIA website https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol-61-no-2/pdfs/why-spy-why-leak.pdf https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...
- gameswithgo 9y ago
  Why does your response start with the word No?
- wonton2 9y ago
  The point, I think, was that CIA is biased, not that they came to these results. You cannot really trust their research, since they analyze their «enemies». It is like when a skin care company cites that «9 out of 10 said this is the best skin cream (in a survey of 30 people)»
  - rockinghigh 9y ago
    The CIA is interested in leakers because it uses them to get information from foreign intelligence agencies. They are not enemies.
    - 9y ago

samstave 9y ago

Dear Lordy, this is such a wonderful read. The cyberpunk dna in me thanks you for this.

tyingq 9y ago

Depends on the leak. Leaking new product info is different from leaking incriminating info. And I'm sure there's lots of grey in between those two extremes. Susan Fowler's motivations seemed pretty pure.

walrus01 9y ago

> >I’ve never understood what the employee gets out of it > The intelligence services have done a great deal of research into the persona of the press leaker/Wikileaks leaker Taught in a counterintelligence 101 type class, there's generally four types of intel leak. Not always mutually exclusive, sometimes there's a combination of factors influencing the behavior of any single person. MICE Money - for financial gain. Robert Hanssen would be one example. Ideology - Typical cold war stuff, a person that deeply believes in the political ideology of power group A becomes a mole inside opposing political group B. Conscience - Something happening is deeply wrong and unjust in the view of the leaker. Snowden. Ego - Sometimes combined with the Money part. The persons receiving the intel find a way to flatter the ego of the leaker, about how important their role is on a grand strategic level.

tomtimtall 9y ago

It doesn’t seem to far fetched to speculate that money is involved.

bitL 9y ago

I think here you should probably distinguish between leaking a cool tech gadget plans/prototypes (those are likely ego driven or just by childish joy of sharing), and those leaks that expose some atrocities (that might be instead moral outrage-based).