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> Russia’s media watchdog to block the messaging app Telegram for its refusal to share users’ information with the government Wondering if whatsapp is unblocke

> Russia’s media watchdog to block the messaging app Telegram for its refusal to share users’ information with the government Wondering if whatsapp is unblocked because it already is sharing users' information?

ryanlol 8y ago
Whatsapp is unblocked because blocking it would not significantly benefit Russian intelligence operations overseas.
- TheForumTroll 8y ago
  You should seek work in Whatsapp's PR department. You sound just like them.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  Cause for them to use it overseas it needs to be unblocked internally (to Russia)? Russia can always "whitelist" some applications for government officials too. Or y'know not rely on third-parties and roll their own solution, not like Signal's protocol isn't open sourced.
  - ryanlol 8y ago
    I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Blocking Telegram helps Russian intelligence operations by making it appear like as if the Russian government did not have access to the vast majority of conversations over Telegram.
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      You were on about WhatsApp.... I mentioned Signal, Telegram does not use Signal's protocol.
anovikov 8y ago
Yes, every messenger operating in Russia has to share users' information.
- codedokode 8y ago
  There is a formal process for that. First, a messenger must register with Roskomnadzor (a government organization). So if a messenger is not on the list, it doesn't have to share anything yet.
  - anovikov 8y ago
    What i think about it: why not build in ToR client right into the app itself, make it update itself, then always use ToR with obfs4, and openly declare that there will be no compliance, and you can't do anything? Only concern could be the file size, but Orbot is only 12MB for example. It will also greatly increase popularity of the messenger.
sschueller 8y ago
Yes, I would like to know how that works since whatsapp is constantly being advertised as super secure because of using the signal protocol. Do Russians get a different version of the app?
- mayniac 8y ago
  Assuming they set up signal protocol correctly, which I'm sure they did since Open Whisper Systems partnered with WA to set it up right, they're likely just sharing details on users' contact lists. Considering Facebook owns WhatsApp this isn't surprising, they're definitely happy to share this information (ever seen someone in your FB "suggested friends" list after messaging them on WA?) If they had pushed a different version of the app to Russia or there was a way of breaking message encryption I'm sure someone would have noticed by now.
  - sschueller 8y ago
    I just read that on iOS apps from the same developer can share sandbox data. That means the facebook app can read the whatsapp message history. [1] [1] https://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/meldung/Entwickler-Facebook-kann-WhatsApp-Chats-einsehen-trotz-Ende-zu-Ende-Verschluesselung-4023461.html https://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/meldung/Entwickler-Facebook-k...
  - saas_co_de 8y ago
    I think you can pretty easily guess from the #deletefacebook statement of the whatsapp founder that they did not implement the protocol "correctly". Corporate statements about the security and privacy of their products usually leave open the possibility that they engage in lawful intercept. Even if they don't they can always just lie and use the fact that they have national security letters barring disclosure as legal cover if it ever comes out.
  - mtgx 8y ago
    They could probably still use this "design feature" (that Signal doesn't have) to hack users who don't authenticate the people they're talking with (also authentication isn't enabled by default on WhatsApp, but it is on Signal): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp-design-feature-encrypted-messages https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp-... If you're a user of WhatsApp, make sure you enable the two-factor authentication PIN, too, because otherwise it should be relatively trivial for your own government to gain access to your account by using your number with the local carrier's help (it's also possible to do it without the carrier's help, given how broken the security of carrier networks is). Many Telegram users were hacked this way by the government in Russia, too.
y_molodtsov 8y ago
The official version is that Telegram was used by terrorists who blew up the metro in Saint Petersburg. The real reason is more simple: it's mostly used by the small middle class, people working in tech and business. The current laws in Russia were used to block LinkedIn, but they didn't touch Facebook or Twitter — that would be too much.
- ktta 8y ago
  Wouldn't this move just make then move to WhatsApp and eventually beg the same question as the parent comment?
  - y_molodtsov 8y ago
    It could be, but much more people use WhatsApp in Russia, people like my parents who haven't noticed any laws against the free internet before. They don't touch Signal or anything else as well.
  - 3pt14159 8y ago
    WhatsApp has lots of clients for the shitty phones poor people use and a ton of Russians use WhatsApp. It's also possible that some implementations of these WhatsApp apps or the phones that host them are hacked, while others are not so it could be less of a binary distinction than one might assume.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  >it's mostly used by the small middle class, people working in tech and business. And terrorists. That use-case doesn't disappear.
  - mjburgess 8y ago
    It does when they switch apps and the other users can't legally do so.
  - chupasaurus 8y ago
    Terrorists breath air, therefore we should ban air for everyone?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
iaml 8y ago
Telegram is widely popular among that part of the country who like doing illegal things; it was even endorsed by local darknet, they set up bots to help circumvent blocking and stuff like that. Really juicy target for banhammer compared to whatsapp that has a smaller and more legitimate user base (in russia).

ryanlol 8y ago

Whatsapp is unblocked because blocking it would not significantly benefit Russian intelligence operations overseas.

TheForumTroll 8y ago
You should seek work in Whatsapp's PR department. You sound just like them.
giancarlostoro 8y ago
Cause for them to use it overseas it needs to be unblocked internally (to Russia)? Russia can always "whitelist" some applications for government officials too. Or y'know not rely on third-parties and roll their own solution, not like Signal's protocol isn't open sourced.
- ryanlol 8y ago
  I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Blocking Telegram helps Russian intelligence operations by making it appear like as if the Russian government did not have access to the vast majority of conversations over Telegram.
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    You were on about WhatsApp.... I mentioned Signal, Telegram does not use Signal's protocol.

anovikov 8y ago

Yes, every messenger operating in Russia has to share users' information.

codedokode 8y ago
There is a formal process for that. First, a messenger must register with Roskomnadzor (a government organization). So if a messenger is not on the list, it doesn't have to share anything yet.
- anovikov 8y ago
  What i think about it: why not build in ToR client right into the app itself, make it update itself, then always use ToR with obfs4, and openly declare that there will be no compliance, and you can't do anything? Only concern could be the file size, but Orbot is only 12MB for example. It will also greatly increase popularity of the messenger.

sschueller 8y ago

Yes, I would like to know how that works since whatsapp is constantly being advertised as super secure because of using the signal protocol. Do Russians get a different version of the app?

mayniac 8y ago
Assuming they set up signal protocol correctly, which I'm sure they did since Open Whisper Systems partnered with WA to set it up right, they're likely just sharing details on users' contact lists. Considering Facebook owns WhatsApp this isn't surprising, they're definitely happy to share this information (ever seen someone in your FB "suggested friends" list after messaging them on WA?) If they had pushed a different version of the app to Russia or there was a way of breaking message encryption I'm sure someone would have noticed by now.
- sschueller 8y ago
  I just read that on iOS apps from the same developer can share sandbox data. That means the facebook app can read the whatsapp message history. [1] [1] https://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/meldung/Entwickler-Facebook-kann-WhatsApp-Chats-einsehen-trotz-Ende-zu-Ende-Verschluesselung-4023461.html https://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/meldung/Entwickler-Facebook-k...
- saas_co_de 8y ago
  I think you can pretty easily guess from the #deletefacebook statement of the whatsapp founder that they did not implement the protocol "correctly". Corporate statements about the security and privacy of their products usually leave open the possibility that they engage in lawful intercept. Even if they don't they can always just lie and use the fact that they have national security letters barring disclosure as legal cover if it ever comes out.
- mtgx 8y ago
  They could probably still use this "design feature" (that Signal doesn't have) to hack users who don't authenticate the people they're talking with (also authentication isn't enabled by default on WhatsApp, but it is on Signal): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp-design-feature-encrypted-messages https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp-... If you're a user of WhatsApp, make sure you enable the two-factor authentication PIN, too, because otherwise it should be relatively trivial for your own government to gain access to your account by using your number with the local carrier's help (it's also possible to do it without the carrier's help, given how broken the security of carrier networks is). Many Telegram users were hacked this way by the government in Russia, too.

y_molodtsov 8y ago

The official version is that Telegram was used by terrorists who blew up the metro in Saint Petersburg. The real reason is more simple: it's mostly used by the small middle class, people working in tech and business. The current laws in Russia were used to block LinkedIn, but they didn't touch Facebook or Twitter — that would be too much.

ktta 8y ago
Wouldn't this move just make then move to WhatsApp and eventually beg the same question as the parent comment?
- y_molodtsov 8y ago
  It could be, but much more people use WhatsApp in Russia, people like my parents who haven't noticed any laws against the free internet before. They don't touch Signal or anything else as well.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  WhatsApp has lots of clients for the shitty phones poor people use and a ton of Russians use WhatsApp. It's also possible that some implementations of these WhatsApp apps or the phones that host them are hacked, while others are not so it could be less of a binary distinction than one might assume.
macspoofing 8y ago
>it's mostly used by the small middle class, people working in tech and business. And terrorists. That use-case doesn't disappear.
- mjburgess 8y ago
  It does when they switch apps and the other users can't legally do so.
- chupasaurus 8y ago
  Terrorists breath air, therefore we should ban air for everyone?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

iaml 8y ago

Telegram is widely popular among that part of the country who like doing illegal things; it was even endorsed by local darknet, they set up bots to help circumvent blocking and stuff like that. Really juicy target for banhammer compared to whatsapp that has a smaller and more legitimate user base (in russia).