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Contrarian viewpoint - you're dealing with humans with emotions, and they deserve some respect on that human level. If you want to take a moral stand against en

Contrarian viewpoint - you're dealing with humans with emotions, and they deserve some respect on that human level. If you want to take a moral stand against encroachment of civil liberties, I respect that. But why not be polite? "I apologize, sir, but I'm morally opposed to answering questions beyond what I have to. I'll comply with the legal requirements to enter the country, but I don't answer questions I'm not legally required to on principal - I think it's no good." You're much less likely to have trouble that way, and it explains why you're doing what you're doing, which makes it more likely to have a positive impact and get the officers to re-think why they're doing their job and what it means. Stonewalling them is your legal right, fine, but it seems to be a sub-optimal choice on a principals/ethics level and on a practical level. Now before anyone replies, "You shouldn't have to bow and scrape to get into your own country" - yes I agree with you, but being rude doesn't accomplish anything additional than stating your principals politely.

SoftwareMaven 16y ago
This video is germain to this conversation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc It is unfortunate that the power-balance has become so one-sided that we actively worry about speaking to the police in case they decide to make your life difficult.
- edanm 16y ago
  I was about to post this myself. Here's my problem: theoretically, the video makes sense. I shouldn't every speak to the police. Practically, if I'm pulled over for a speeding ticket, saying "I refuse to speak" is going to get me in a lot more trouble than just playing along.
  - ugh 16y ago
    Be pragmatic and polite and don’t answer questions. If they ask you whether you know why they stopped you simply say “No, why?” (For the love of goodness, don’t admit that you were doing something wrong or even worse say you didn’t do anything wrong when you did.) If they ask you for ID provide them with one. It doesn’t seem that they would ask you any more questions, they can just hand you over the ticket. If they really do continue asking questions you can just politely say that you would rather not answer any more questions. That’s behavior very much consistent with the video.
    - hyperbovine 16y ago
      I have twice gotten out of a ticket by promptly and honestly admitting that I was breaking the law and had no excuse. Cops are human lie detectors, playing dumb with them never works. OTOH acknowledging this fact straight away seems to make them happy.
      - ugh 16y ago
        You shouldn’t play dumb. The simple reason why you always want to know what the police accuses you of before you admit to doing anything is that they might know less than you think. (That’s exactly why they ask you!) You should never lie to the police, you should just politely ask them why they stopped you. What’s wrong with that?
      - SHOwnsYou 16y ago
        I have to second this. I have gotten out of a ticket every time I've been pulled over (~10 times). The first thing I say is "I'm sorry officer. I know I was why I got pulled over. I just excuse for it" Has worked every time.
thaumaturgy 16y ago
He answered to all of your points in the follow-up post, which was prominently linked to the top of the post submitted here.
- lionhearted 16y ago
  Thanks, I missed that link somehow. But I think he's wrong about this: > 5. Politeness Would Make No Difference. That's not true at all in my experience. After lots of international traveling, I've found the optimum is, "Good afternoon officer, how are you?" while handing my passport over. Maybe ask about the local sports teams. They're much friendlier and cooler when you do so. This is my empirical observation on my part after dozens if not hundreds of border crossings - it does make a difference; the author is mistaken. I respect his principals, but I think adding politeness would be more pragmatic and serve his goals of establishing civil liberties more effectively.
  - ghshephard 16y ago
    In order to be polite, you have to speak. The instant you start speaking, anything you say can be held against you in a court of law. His primary position is that in speaking, you've instantly jeopardized yourself and set yourself up for criminal charges. He is a lawyer - and shows how even answering the question "Business or Pleasure" - sets you up for a large number of criminal charges - REGARDLESS of whether you tried your best to answer them honestly. It's basically the same position you should always take with a police offer who is trolling (as opposed to performing actual police work) - Always refuse to answer anything but the most basic questions such as your identity, always (always) refuse to consent to a search.
    - houseabsolute 16y ago
      I highly doubt that any speech that's part of a one sentence explanation of your civil rights is going to land up working against you in court. The odds of that are lost in the noise of the odds that the officer will fabricate evidence against you, including spoken declarations you never actually spoke. It's possible, but extremely unlikely.
tomjen3 16y ago
The moment you call anybody "sir" you are bowing to them.
- JshWright 16y ago
  Using the word 'sir' when talking to someone you're not familiar with is generally intended simply as a gesture of respect. It's not some sort of submissive term. My occupation puts me in positions of authority over strangers from time to time. I pretty much always default to '"sir" and "m'am" in those cases.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    Maybe it is cultural thing - nobody here calls a stranger sir. "You" would seem to be more appropriate.
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      Where's "here"? Personally the situation where I'm most likely to call someone sir is where I'm giving them a forceful verbal put down. "With due respect sir that sort of language is unacceptable here." or what have you. I'm in the UK so also when addressing a Knight of the realm in a formal setting. A
      - arethuza 16y ago
        UK also here - I don't think I've ever used the word "sir" outside of a humorous context.
      - jlees 16y ago
        Or when you want something from a stranger. "Excuse me sir, have you got any change..." (And similarly with the leafletting, cashiering, tour-guiding and door-holding occupations I've had in the past. You want people to feel important, and you're in a subservient position, so you elevate them verbally. Basically, when you're a Baldrick.)
    - 16y ago
mattmaroon 16y ago
If you really feel that strongly about these questions the correct response is most definitely not what he's done. In the end he's only hurting himself. I don't know who has the power to actually change this, but I'd be willing to wager they'll never even learn of his existence. All he ended up accomplishing was wasting his time and the time of people being paid by the tax payers.
baddox 16y ago
If a police officer is lost and pulls into your driveway to ask directions, sure, you should probably do your best to help even though you have to responsibility to do so. However, as soon as an on-duty public official exceeds his or her authority in an offensive way (like if the officer demanded your help or shot your dog [1]), he or she deserves no gracious human-to-human "emotional" kindness from you. On top of that, I wouldn't consider any of this guy's answer impolite, unethical, or even impractical. Sure, your exact wording might be better to avoid being hassled, but there's no guarantee of that, plus not everyone is good at wording things tactfully especially when they're being wronged. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mvIWFXbHNo#t=0m48s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mvIWFXbHNo#t=0m48s
lzw 16y ago
Funny how the thugs in uniform are to be treated as humans with emotions, but our victim deserves the abuse he got! We are trained in our society to be absolutely obedient to authority, and no abuses by authority, such as the lies this guy was told, the harassment he endured, and the threats he was threatened with, matters at all. But for him to politely refuse to display subservience to this authority, you pretend like he was being rude.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- blehn 16y ago
  Uh, the first thing the guy said was,"That's none of your business." I wouldn't call that a polite refusal. More like an FU refusal.
megablast 16y ago
I am sorry, this is not being polite, this is grovelling. If you are going to do that, you might as well just answer the question. Respect goes both ways, he was not rude, and did everything correct. Your way is just absolutely disgusting, you seem to feel the need to apologize for doing nothing wrong. You are begging to be left alone. You have no need to explain your reasoning here. Why would you apologize in this instant?

SoftwareMaven 16y ago

This video is germain to this conversation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc It is unfortunate that the power-balance has become so one-sided that we actively worry about speaking to the police in case they decide to make your life difficult.

edanm 16y ago
I was about to post this myself. Here's my problem: theoretically, the video makes sense. I shouldn't every speak to the police. Practically, if I'm pulled over for a speeding ticket, saying "I refuse to speak" is going to get me in a lot more trouble than just playing along.
- ugh 16y ago
  Be pragmatic and polite and don’t answer questions. If they ask you whether you know why they stopped you simply say “No, why?” (For the love of goodness, don’t admit that you were doing something wrong or even worse say you didn’t do anything wrong when you did.) If they ask you for ID provide them with one. It doesn’t seem that they would ask you any more questions, they can just hand you over the ticket. If they really do continue asking questions you can just politely say that you would rather not answer any more questions. That’s behavior very much consistent with the video.
  - hyperbovine 16y ago
    I have twice gotten out of a ticket by promptly and honestly admitting that I was breaking the law and had no excuse. Cops are human lie detectors, playing dumb with them never works. OTOH acknowledging this fact straight away seems to make them happy.
    - ugh 16y ago
      You shouldn’t play dumb. The simple reason why you always want to know what the police accuses you of before you admit to doing anything is that they might know less than you think. (That’s exactly why they ask you!) You should never lie to the police, you should just politely ask them why they stopped you. What’s wrong with that?
    - SHOwnsYou 16y ago
      I have to second this. I have gotten out of a ticket every time I've been pulled over (~10 times). The first thing I say is "I'm sorry officer. I know I was why I got pulled over. I just excuse for it" Has worked every time.

thaumaturgy 16y ago

He answered to all of your points in the follow-up post, which was prominently linked to the top of the post submitted here.

lionhearted 16y ago
Thanks, I missed that link somehow. But I think he's wrong about this: > 5. Politeness Would Make No Difference. That's not true at all in my experience. After lots of international traveling, I've found the optimum is, "Good afternoon officer, how are you?" while handing my passport over. Maybe ask about the local sports teams. They're much friendlier and cooler when you do so. This is my empirical observation on my part after dozens if not hundreds of border crossings - it does make a difference; the author is mistaken. I respect his principals, but I think adding politeness would be more pragmatic and serve his goals of establishing civil liberties more effectively.
- ghshephard 16y ago
  In order to be polite, you have to speak. The instant you start speaking, anything you say can be held against you in a court of law. His primary position is that in speaking, you've instantly jeopardized yourself and set yourself up for criminal charges. He is a lawyer - and shows how even answering the question "Business or Pleasure" - sets you up for a large number of criminal charges - REGARDLESS of whether you tried your best to answer them honestly. It's basically the same position you should always take with a police offer who is trolling (as opposed to performing actual police work) - Always refuse to answer anything but the most basic questions such as your identity, always (always) refuse to consent to a search.
  - houseabsolute 16y ago
    I highly doubt that any speech that's part of a one sentence explanation of your civil rights is going to land up working against you in court. The odds of that are lost in the noise of the odds that the officer will fabricate evidence against you, including spoken declarations you never actually spoke. It's possible, but extremely unlikely.

tomjen3 16y ago

The moment you call anybody "sir" you are bowing to them.

JshWright 16y ago
Using the word 'sir' when talking to someone you're not familiar with is generally intended simply as a gesture of respect. It's not some sort of submissive term. My occupation puts me in positions of authority over strangers from time to time. I pretty much always default to '"sir" and "m'am" in those cases.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Maybe it is cultural thing - nobody here calls a stranger sir. "You" would seem to be more appropriate.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    Where's "here"? Personally the situation where I'm most likely to call someone sir is where I'm giving them a forceful verbal put down. "With due respect sir that sort of language is unacceptable here." or what have you. I'm in the UK so also when addressing a Knight of the realm in a formal setting. A
    - arethuza 16y ago
      UK also here - I don't think I've ever used the word "sir" outside of a humorous context.
    - jlees 16y ago
      Or when you want something from a stranger. "Excuse me sir, have you got any change..." (And similarly with the leafletting, cashiering, tour-guiding and door-holding occupations I've had in the past. You want people to feel important, and you're in a subservient position, so you elevate them verbally. Basically, when you're a Baldrick.)
  - 16y ago

mattmaroon 16y ago

If you really feel that strongly about these questions the correct response is most definitely not what he's done. In the end he's only hurting himself. I don't know who has the power to actually change this, but I'd be willing to wager they'll never even learn of his existence. All he ended up accomplishing was wasting his time and the time of people being paid by the tax payers.

baddox 16y ago

If a police officer is lost and pulls into your driveway to ask directions, sure, you should probably do your best to help even though you have to responsibility to do so. However, as soon as an on-duty public official exceeds his or her authority in an offensive way (like if the officer demanded your help or shot your dog [1]), he or she deserves no gracious human-to-human "emotional" kindness from you. On top of that, I wouldn't consider any of this guy's answer impolite, unethical, or even impractical. Sure, your exact wording might be better to avoid being hassled, but there's no guarantee of that, plus not everyone is good at wording things tactfully especially when they're being wronged. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mvIWFXbHNo#t=0m48s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mvIWFXbHNo#t=0m48s

lzw 16y ago

Funny how the thugs in uniform are to be treated as humans with emotions, but our victim deserves the abuse he got! We are trained in our society to be absolutely obedient to authority, and no abuses by authority, such as the lies this guy was told, the harassment he endured, and the threats he was threatened with, matters at all. But for him to politely refuse to display subservience to this authority, you pretend like he was being rude.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
blehn 16y ago
Uh, the first thing the guy said was,"That's none of your business." I wouldn't call that a polite refusal. More like an FU refusal.

megablast 16y ago

I am sorry, this is not being polite, this is grovelling. If you are going to do that, you might as well just answer the question. Respect goes both ways, he was not rude, and did everything correct. Your way is just absolutely disgusting, you seem to feel the need to apologize for doing nothing wrong. You are begging to be left alone. You have no need to explain your reasoning here. Why would you apologize in this instant?