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The science really is accurate with regards to the lecture being outdated and not effective. However, problems abound with regards to implementing different me

The science really is accurate with regards to the lecture being outdated and not effective. However, problems abound with regards to implementing different methods in higher ed. For example, I was previously a Financial Economics Professor and "flipped" the classroom for my introductory corporate finance class. This means that the students watched prerecorded video lectures at home and then worked out their "homework" in class. So basically, the students had someone (me) to ask questions of when they hit stumbling blocks. Pedagogically, this has shown improvements in learning achievements. HOWEVER, the problem I ran into is pretty similar to what I have heard from every other faculty member (across disciplines and universities) who has attempted to do this. The problem is that we repeatedly hear from students that "he didn't even teach us anything, he just made us watch videos." This wasn't just one or two students, this was an overwhelming majority. The other problem I ran into was that students thought there was no benefit to coming to class (even when you include attendance as part of their grades). The number of students dropping the course at the last 'W' deadline skyrocketed. For me, it became a challenge to continue to do it this way, even though I spent 3+ months full time over a summer producing videos of my lectures, and eventually went back to the "chalk and talk". My student opinion polls went back up. I'm not entirely sure of what the solution to the problem is, but project based learning does greatly enhance learning. That needs to be baked into the institution.

pradn 9y ago
Students seem to equate being personable, nice, witty, and entertaining with good teaching. Perhaps the word "teaching" necessarily conjures up lecturing. Much of the work on producing learning outcomes is in picking the textbook/materials, finding the pace, creating the evaluation/feedback mechanisms (tests/quizzes/informal methods), and designing the projects. These factors aren't included in what students perceive as "teaching".
sykh 9y ago
I’ve been doing flipped classrooms for nine years now. I teach mathematics at a community college. What I’ve found so that students drop out much sooner in my flipped classroom style versus traditional lecture style class. But the overall rate hasn’t changed. Students can’t fake it in my flipped classroom style. If they come unprepared, and this is obvious when it happens, I don’t help them doing the problem sets in class. I only help the students who are prepared. The lectures they are supposed to watch have been created by me. I create my own content. The slackers die off quickly in my format. This makes for a much better end of semester for me and the remaining students. There is no cure for apathy. If they don’t want to work they won’t. They’ll blame whatever they can regardless of format. I do wonder how success is measured in the article. Is it passing rate? That’s easy to increase. Has the material been mastered better in alternative format classes? That should be the real test of success. To date I’ve never encountered an institution that measures success correctly.
- silveroriole 9y ago
  Don’t you get in trouble for what could be seen as refusing to teach? I know you are creating the teaching content, but I can’t see managers/appraisers being comfortable with high drop out rates. And what is the student feedback like? edit: ah sorry I see you said the drop out rate itself doesn’t change, fair enough.
  - sykh 9y ago
    The passing rate has improved a bit but dropout rates are essentially unchanged. What has mostly changed is that the students can’t fake the fact they didn’t do the work. My dean has been supportive. I don’t do student opinion surveys so I don’t have information with regard to that.
- SiempreViernes 9y ago
  Man, if there was some reliable way of measuring knowledge we would probably solve education in about 10 years... The article actually just talks about distribution of teaching modes, but links to an article about positive outcome from active learning that uses passing rate as metric.
  - sykh 9y ago
    Well passing rate is a very bad meaurement. It’s so easy to fudge. In math a standardized final exam written by a third party would be a much better measurement of learning in my opinion.
    - chongli 9y ago
      In math a standardized final exam written by a third party would be a much better measurement of learning in my opinion I don't know about that. Standardized exams get students to focus on exam prep to the exclusion of all else. Then, when they encounter material outside the scope of the exam, they struggle mightily. I think we should be teaching broadly applicable problem-solving skills, not highly specific standardized exam material.
kkylin 9y ago
I haven't taught a class in a non-traditional format, but was just talking yesterday to a colleague who has been teaching in an active learning (AL) style. (Not flipped as yours was.) Her conclusions were similar: the good students liked AL, but she does get students who complain that "she isn't teaching us anything" and "she isn't telling us what to do." The second type of comments is telling, I think.
SiempreViernes 9y ago
How frustrating that their expectations of what learning is supposed to be like sunk your project, and not something related to their actual attainment. Did they report spending more time on it than during the traditional lecture based course? I could imagine the flipped classroom ending up making many spend more time out of class on a course, which then makes it seems like the course forces the students to do all the work. Of course, the work of learning is always done by the student anyway, but it's less obvious when a large part is listening to a lecture. Potential solutions that I can imagine is to put in some traditional lectures, maybe denser at the start, so that you are seen putting in effort too. Also, making sexy posters about the "new, revolutionary, methods being used for this course" could maybe change some of the incorrect expectations about what learning is supposed to be like.
- copperx 9y ago
  > which then makes it seems like the course forces the students to do all the work. But there are no shortcuts to learning! The student has to do all the work. The job of the instructor/course is to organize the material and guide the student.
gms7777 9y ago
As someone with (at the time undiagnosed) ADHD, I found lectures nearly useless during my undergrad and grad courses. I'd do my best to try to force myself to pay attention, but after 20 minutes, I'd realize I had been in a different world for the past 5 minutes, had missed key details and the rest of the lecture didn't make sense anymore. (I know the obvious response is to ask questions, but teachers and other students don't respond particularly well when I'm literally asking them to repeat what they just said). Recorded lectures and particularly flipped classrooms were a god-send for me the few times I had courses structured like that. I could rewind and go through what I just missed in videos if I zoned out, and the interactive nature of flipped classrooms really helped me focus and absorb materials in a way that doing homework by myself just couldn't. Its disappointing that most students didn't appreciate this form of learning. I'm hoping that as the new generation of students (the khan academy generation) reaches college age, these sorts of techniques will become more accepted and easier to implement.
varrock 9y ago
I'm undergrad right now and had a class that you describe. It was a web development course, so our teacher posted prerecorded lectures two days before class and we would watch them and do homework exercises on the side that were then due by the end of that next class (so you could ask questions). I actually had so much fun doing this. This worked for me is because I could take the lecture at my own pace; pause, fast forward, etc. Essentially, I could be efficient and effective. I think those that say "he didn't even teach us anything, he just made us watch videos" are a bit out of touch with how learning works these days. You can find almost any resource online and read up on it yourself. That's how I've learned a lot of what I've done. Having a supplemental class period to expand on this idea is very important, and I think it's a shame some of my peers don't realize this. They expect you, the professor, to engrave it in their heads, but there is a shared responsibility here. Sitting in a lecture doesn't mean you're going to automatically understand the material; you actually have to think about what is being said. That's also why I liked my recorded lectures; I felt even more responsible for making sure I understood it before coming to class.
pbreit 9y ago
I think it's a fascinating idea that I was first introduced to by this Sal Kahn Ted Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_reinvent_education https://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_rei...
usepgp 9y ago
It's not about effectiveness; lectures are the added value that the university system provides to the educational process. I don't need to be paying thousands a year to have someone point out the best videos to watch online, or to pick problem numbers from a math textbook, or to come up with project ideas, or any of that. The whole point of lectures is for experts to share their knowledge. Universities are (ideally) a funding mechanism to ensure that there is enough capital to support those who want to teach, and they generate the capital by keeping many of those lectures private. I would 100% rather watch a live person give a talk than burn out my eyes on another online video where I can't even ask real time questions.
wggl 9y ago
I’m an undergrad right now preparing to take an exam for a course that was taught this way (Single Variable Calculus, https://youtube.com/channel/UCLzpR8AiHx9h_-yt2fAxd_A https://youtube.com/channel/UCLzpR8AiHx9h_-yt2fAxd_A). Overall I felt like the course was better for being taught this way, and my classmates mostly think similarly. I think one key differences from what you’re describing though is that instead of periods to work on homework lectures were directed periods of applied learning where the professor gave us problems one by one and walked us through them when we got lost. Overall I felt like this made the lectures more essential not less. In my other math lectures the professors mostly just explained the material in the textbook/notes that you could learn just as easily on your own. The applied learning style of the lectures for this course made each lecture unskippable if you really wanted to understand the material. The problems in the textbook didn’t come with any explanation for their solutions, and weren’t as similar to the problems on the tests and the problem sets as the problems in the lectures, so there was a lot of value lost if you missed a lecture. For me personally, I prefer learning directly from the textbook so the videos were not that great, but the interactive lecture style is how I would want all of my future math courses to be taught, if I could choose.

pradn 9y ago

Students seem to equate being personable, nice, witty, and entertaining with good teaching. Perhaps the word "teaching" necessarily conjures up lecturing. Much of the work on producing learning outcomes is in picking the textbook/materials, finding the pace, creating the evaluation/feedback mechanisms (tests/quizzes/informal methods), and designing the projects. These factors aren't included in what students perceive as "teaching".

sykh 9y ago

I’ve been doing flipped classrooms for nine years now. I teach mathematics at a community college. What I’ve found so that students drop out much sooner in my flipped classroom style versus traditional lecture style class. But the overall rate hasn’t changed. Students can’t fake it in my flipped classroom style. If they come unprepared, and this is obvious when it happens, I don’t help them doing the problem sets in class. I only help the students who are prepared. The lectures they are supposed to watch have been created by me. I create my own content. The slackers die off quickly in my format. This makes for a much better end of semester for me and the remaining students. There is no cure for apathy. If they don’t want to work they won’t. They’ll blame whatever they can regardless of format. I do wonder how success is measured in the article. Is it passing rate? That’s easy to increase. Has the material been mastered better in alternative format classes? That should be the real test of success. To date I’ve never encountered an institution that measures success correctly.

silveroriole 9y ago
Don’t you get in trouble for what could be seen as refusing to teach? I know you are creating the teaching content, but I can’t see managers/appraisers being comfortable with high drop out rates. And what is the student feedback like? edit: ah sorry I see you said the drop out rate itself doesn’t change, fair enough.
- sykh 9y ago
  The passing rate has improved a bit but dropout rates are essentially unchanged. What has mostly changed is that the students can’t fake the fact they didn’t do the work. My dean has been supportive. I don’t do student opinion surveys so I don’t have information with regard to that.
SiempreViernes 9y ago
Man, if there was some reliable way of measuring knowledge we would probably solve education in about 10 years... The article actually just talks about distribution of teaching modes, but links to an article about positive outcome from active learning that uses passing rate as metric.
- sykh 9y ago
  Well passing rate is a very bad meaurement. It’s so easy to fudge. In math a standardized final exam written by a third party would be a much better measurement of learning in my opinion.
  - chongli 9y ago
    In math a standardized final exam written by a third party would be a much better measurement of learning in my opinion I don't know about that. Standardized exams get students to focus on exam prep to the exclusion of all else. Then, when they encounter material outside the scope of the exam, they struggle mightily. I think we should be teaching broadly applicable problem-solving skills, not highly specific standardized exam material.

kkylin 9y ago

I haven't taught a class in a non-traditional format, but was just talking yesterday to a colleague who has been teaching in an active learning (AL) style. (Not flipped as yours was.) Her conclusions were similar: the good students liked AL, but she does get students who complain that "she isn't teaching us anything" and "she isn't telling us what to do." The second type of comments is telling, I think.

SiempreViernes 9y ago

How frustrating that their expectations of what learning is supposed to be like sunk your project, and not something related to their actual attainment. Did they report spending more time on it than during the traditional lecture based course? I could imagine the flipped classroom ending up making many spend more time out of class on a course, which then makes it seems like the course forces the students to do all the work. Of course, the work of learning is always done by the student anyway, but it's less obvious when a large part is listening to a lecture. Potential solutions that I can imagine is to put in some traditional lectures, maybe denser at the start, so that you are seen putting in effort too. Also, making sexy posters about the "new, revolutionary, methods being used for this course" could maybe change some of the incorrect expectations about what learning is supposed to be like.

copperx 9y ago
> which then makes it seems like the course forces the students to do all the work. But there are no shortcuts to learning! The student has to do all the work. The job of the instructor/course is to organize the material and guide the student.

gms7777 9y ago

As someone with (at the time undiagnosed) ADHD, I found lectures nearly useless during my undergrad and grad courses. I'd do my best to try to force myself to pay attention, but after 20 minutes, I'd realize I had been in a different world for the past 5 minutes, had missed key details and the rest of the lecture didn't make sense anymore. (I know the obvious response is to ask questions, but teachers and other students don't respond particularly well when I'm literally asking them to repeat what they just said). Recorded lectures and particularly flipped classrooms were a god-send for me the few times I had courses structured like that. I could rewind and go through what I just missed in videos if I zoned out, and the interactive nature of flipped classrooms really helped me focus and absorb materials in a way that doing homework by myself just couldn't. Its disappointing that most students didn't appreciate this form of learning. I'm hoping that as the new generation of students (the khan academy generation) reaches college age, these sorts of techniques will become more accepted and easier to implement.

varrock 9y ago

I'm undergrad right now and had a class that you describe. It was a web development course, so our teacher posted prerecorded lectures two days before class and we would watch them and do homework exercises on the side that were then due by the end of that next class (so you could ask questions). I actually had so much fun doing this. This worked for me is because I could take the lecture at my own pace; pause, fast forward, etc. Essentially, I could be efficient and effective. I think those that say "he didn't even teach us anything, he just made us watch videos" are a bit out of touch with how learning works these days. You can find almost any resource online and read up on it yourself. That's how I've learned a lot of what I've done. Having a supplemental class period to expand on this idea is very important, and I think it's a shame some of my peers don't realize this. They expect you, the professor, to engrave it in their heads, but there is a shared responsibility here. Sitting in a lecture doesn't mean you're going to automatically understand the material; you actually have to think about what is being said. That's also why I liked my recorded lectures; I felt even more responsible for making sure I understood it before coming to class.

pbreit 9y ago

I think it's a fascinating idea that I was first introduced to by this Sal Kahn Ted Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_reinvent_education https://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_rei...

usepgp 9y ago

It's not about effectiveness; lectures are the added value that the university system provides to the educational process. I don't need to be paying thousands a year to have someone point out the best videos to watch online, or to pick problem numbers from a math textbook, or to come up with project ideas, or any of that. The whole point of lectures is for experts to share their knowledge. Universities are (ideally) a funding mechanism to ensure that there is enough capital to support those who want to teach, and they generate the capital by keeping many of those lectures private. I would 100% rather watch a live person give a talk than burn out my eyes on another online video where I can't even ask real time questions.

wggl 9y ago

I’m an undergrad right now preparing to take an exam for a course that was taught this way (Single Variable Calculus, https://youtube.com/channel/UCLzpR8AiHx9h_-yt2fAxd_A https://youtube.com/channel/UCLzpR8AiHx9h_-yt2fAxd_A). Overall I felt like the course was better for being taught this way, and my classmates mostly think similarly. I think one key differences from what you’re describing though is that instead of periods to work on homework lectures were directed periods of applied learning where the professor gave us problems one by one and walked us through them when we got lost. Overall I felt like this made the lectures more essential not less. In my other math lectures the professors mostly just explained the material in the textbook/notes that you could learn just as easily on your own. The applied learning style of the lectures for this course made each lecture unskippable if you really wanted to understand the material. The problems in the textbook didn’t come with any explanation for their solutions, and weren’t as similar to the problems on the tests and the problem sets as the problems in the lectures, so there was a lot of value lost if you missed a lecture. For me personally, I prefer learning directly from the textbook so the videos were not that great, but the interactive lecture style is how I would want all of my future math courses to be taught, if I could choose.