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Hmmm . . . so two questions: 1. (serious) What recourse do customers have when the company says your warranty is void because you broke the seal? Because the t

Hmmm . . . so two questions: 1. (serious) What recourse do customers have when the company says your warranty is void because you broke the seal? Because the tech on the phone isn't going to have the power to do anything, he's reading from the binder. (Edit really asking: I'm sure someone here will already know the formal complaint process) /edit 2. (sarcastic) How long before the companies get the law changed de jurie instead of just de facto?

iaw 8y ago
1) My guess would be a lawsuit of some sort.
- GCU-Empiricist 8y ago
  Unfortunate if so, nothing will change until someone organizes class actions, and then the victims get at best enough to buy a lunch, a cheap lunch.
  - staticautomatic 8y ago
    Not exactly, since individuals could still file small claims suits to get their money back if they don't mind the prospect of giving up the product at issue. I have successfully done this myself under similar circumstances.
  - s2g 8y ago
    You can't organize a class action, the companies had a shrink wrap agreement to mandatory arbitration. Welcome to 21st century America.
    - aeorgnoieang 8y ago
      Aren't you underestimating the ability of Americans to litigate, especially about whether they can litigate? I'm sue you are.
    - marcoperaza 8y ago
      >Welcome to 21st century America. Which is still more plaintiff-friendly than any jurisdiction in Europe.
    - pktgen 8y ago
      Unless the FTC decides to pursue the matter. The FTC can obtain relief for all US consumers and is not bound by the arbitration agreement.
    - jfoutz 8y ago
      does that still apply? The stickers aren't a misunderstanding, they're illegal. You can't fine print away crimes.
    - IncRnd 8y ago
      The courts have disagreed amongst themselves regarding the legality of shrink wrap agreements.
    - sjg007 8y ago
      Those are basically unenforceable. You file a lawsuit, big co asks to squash to arbitration, judge says wtf no, this is potentially a class act.. continue.
      - syshum 8y ago
        Unfortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-binding-arbitration-agreements/2012/01/16/gIQAg4LuGQ_story.html?utm_term=.4dd7bbfeb867 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-...
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  A lot of people forget small claims courts are an option, lawyers arnt allowed, and judges are pretty sensible. Its a good option for sub $10k USD claims. Large corps are unlikely to even show up, meaning you win by default.
  - djrogers 8y ago
    > lawyers arnt allowed Not true - any time you take a big corp to small claims court, they're going to send a lawyer to represent them. You are suing an entity, not a person, and the entity will pick who represents them.
    - throwaway2048 8y ago
      but at the same time there really isnt any point for them to send a lawyer that is going to cost massively more than what the claim could be even theoretically.
      - aylons 8y ago
        There's one point:deterrence. Half of a corporate lawyer's work is about deterrence, anyway.
    - funkymike 8y ago
      Many small claims courts do not allow the company to send whoever they want. Some outright disallow sending lawyers.
      - djrogers 8y ago
        For person to person suits, yes. For a suit against a corporation who has an attorney on staff? You're getting an attorney. Granted, it may be one who's not familiar with small claims court, but it'll be an attorney. BigCo isn't sending the CEO or the receptionist - they have a legal staff in house, they're gonna use them.
        8y ago
Simulacra 8y ago
You could try this: https://www.ftc.gov/faq/consumer-protection/submit-consumer-complaint-ftc https://www.ftc.gov/faq/consumer-protection/submit-consumer-... Not sure if you'll get a response but it will raise some ire and the company is likely to take it seriously. Hopefully...
db48x 8y ago
Use the small-claims court to get a refund on the broken item they refused to repair.
- dawnerd 8y ago
  Also if you bought using an Amex they have a pretty decent return policy. Should cover cases like this.
chris11 8y ago
I've usually had good luck filing claims with credit card companies, depending on how long it's been. The one downside is that the extended warranty service may not be as valuable as just filing a normal claim right after you buy something.
ChuckMcM 8y ago
For your first question, step 1 is to escalate and when you escalate make sure they know you are creating a paper trail. If you can use the term "paper trail" it will help get your call escalated. Ideally you will get to someone senior enough that you can mention this enforcement action by the FTC and they will recognize it. If that fails, you take your paper trail to small claims court. This can be challenging in different circumstances to serve the other party but courts can be pretty liberal here in California. I was watching cases one day and the person had served Microsoft by giving the summons to a Microsoft Store employee who worked in a kiosk at the mall. Microsoft hadn't shown up so they won their default judgement and went to the next step which was to put a judgement lien on the corporation's assets. (long before that actually happens their legal team will pay you your damages). You could concurrently file a complaint with the FTC. It won't give you any money but it will add on to other complaints and that will eventually get action (like this article). Getting a registered mail letter from the FTC tends to get the attention of the right people. As for your sarcastic question it is isn't that manufacturers have tried to get the laws changed, they have been unsuccessful. Support the 'right to repair' efforts when you run into them, talk to your representatives if you get a chance. That will keep the pressure to maintain the status quo.
- vkou 8y ago
  > For your first question, step 1 is to escalate and when you escalate make sure they know you are creating a paper trail. If you can use the term "paper trail" it will help get your call escalated. Ideally you will get to someone senior enough that you can mention this enforcement action by the FTC and they will recognize it. Do try to avoid the term "lawsuit", though. If you do, any customer service rep that didn't sleep through training will hang up, leaving you free to converse with their legal department... Through snail mail.
  - ChuckMcM 8y ago
    Very good point. I usually say "so how do I spell your name again for my notes?" that is often enough of a clue.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
integricho 8y ago
Unrelated, but, wasn't the Empiricist a System-class GSV? Although, always nice to bump into Culture fans..
- GCU-Empiricist 8y ago
  Yes it's meant as a little bit of self depreciation on a name that's a personal reminder: "don't be the big butt plug"

iaw 8y ago

1) My guess would be a lawsuit of some sort.

GCU-Empiricist 8y ago
Unfortunate if so, nothing will change until someone organizes class actions, and then the victims get at best enough to buy a lunch, a cheap lunch.
- staticautomatic 8y ago
  Not exactly, since individuals could still file small claims suits to get their money back if they don't mind the prospect of giving up the product at issue. I have successfully done this myself under similar circumstances.
- s2g 8y ago
  You can't organize a class action, the companies had a shrink wrap agreement to mandatory arbitration. Welcome to 21st century America.
  - aeorgnoieang 8y ago
    Aren't you underestimating the ability of Americans to litigate, especially about whether they can litigate? I'm sue you are.
  - marcoperaza 8y ago
    >Welcome to 21st century America. Which is still more plaintiff-friendly than any jurisdiction in Europe.
  - pktgen 8y ago
    Unless the FTC decides to pursue the matter. The FTC can obtain relief for all US consumers and is not bound by the arbitration agreement.
  - jfoutz 8y ago
    does that still apply? The stickers aren't a misunderstanding, they're illegal. You can't fine print away crimes.
  - IncRnd 8y ago
    The courts have disagreed amongst themselves regarding the legality of shrink wrap agreements.
  - sjg007 8y ago
    Those are basically unenforceable. You file a lawsuit, big co asks to squash to arbitration, judge says wtf no, this is potentially a class act.. continue.
    - syshum 8y ago
      Unfortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-binding-arbitration-agreements/2012/01/16/gIQAg4LuGQ_story.html?utm_term=.4dd7bbfeb867 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-...
throwaway2048 8y ago
A lot of people forget small claims courts are an option, lawyers arnt allowed, and judges are pretty sensible. Its a good option for sub $10k USD claims. Large corps are unlikely to even show up, meaning you win by default.
- djrogers 8y ago
  > lawyers arnt allowed Not true - any time you take a big corp to small claims court, they're going to send a lawyer to represent them. You are suing an entity, not a person, and the entity will pick who represents them.
  - throwaway2048 8y ago
    but at the same time there really isnt any point for them to send a lawyer that is going to cost massively more than what the claim could be even theoretically.
    - aylons 8y ago
      There's one point:deterrence. Half of a corporate lawyer's work is about deterrence, anyway.
  - funkymike 8y ago
    Many small claims courts do not allow the company to send whoever they want. Some outright disallow sending lawyers.
    - djrogers 8y ago
      For person to person suits, yes. For a suit against a corporation who has an attorney on staff? You're getting an attorney. Granted, it may be one who's not familiar with small claims court, but it'll be an attorney. BigCo isn't sending the CEO or the receptionist - they have a legal staff in house, they're gonna use them.
      - 8y ago

Simulacra 8y ago

You could try this: https://www.ftc.gov/faq/consumer-protection/submit-consumer-complaint-ftc https://www.ftc.gov/faq/consumer-protection/submit-consumer-... Not sure if you'll get a response but it will raise some ire and the company is likely to take it seriously. Hopefully...

db48x 8y ago

Use the small-claims court to get a refund on the broken item they refused to repair.

dawnerd 8y ago
Also if you bought using an Amex they have a pretty decent return policy. Should cover cases like this.

chris11 8y ago

I've usually had good luck filing claims with credit card companies, depending on how long it's been. The one downside is that the extended warranty service may not be as valuable as just filing a normal claim right after you buy something.

ChuckMcM 8y ago

For your first question, step 1 is to escalate and when you escalate make sure they know you are creating a paper trail. If you can use the term "paper trail" it will help get your call escalated. Ideally you will get to someone senior enough that you can mention this enforcement action by the FTC and they will recognize it. If that fails, you take your paper trail to small claims court. This can be challenging in different circumstances to serve the other party but courts can be pretty liberal here in California. I was watching cases one day and the person had served Microsoft by giving the summons to a Microsoft Store employee who worked in a kiosk at the mall. Microsoft hadn't shown up so they won their default judgement and went to the next step which was to put a judgement lien on the corporation's assets. (long before that actually happens their legal team will pay you your damages). You could concurrently file a complaint with the FTC. It won't give you any money but it will add on to other complaints and that will eventually get action (like this article). Getting a registered mail letter from the FTC tends to get the attention of the right people. As for your sarcastic question it is isn't that manufacturers have tried to get the laws changed, they have been unsuccessful. Support the 'right to repair' efforts when you run into them, talk to your representatives if you get a chance. That will keep the pressure to maintain the status quo.

vkou 8y ago
> For your first question, step 1 is to escalate and when you escalate make sure they know you are creating a paper trail. If you can use the term "paper trail" it will help get your call escalated. Ideally you will get to someone senior enough that you can mention this enforcement action by the FTC and they will recognize it. Do try to avoid the term "lawsuit", though. If you do, any customer service rep that didn't sleep through training will hang up, leaving you free to converse with their legal department... Through snail mail.
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  Very good point. I usually say "so how do I spell your name again for my notes?" that is often enough of a clue.
- michaelmrose 8y ago

integricho 8y ago

Unrelated, but, wasn't the Empiricist a System-class GSV? Although, always nice to bump into Culture fans..

GCU-Empiricist 8y ago
Yes it's meant as a little bit of self depreciation on a name that's a personal reminder: "don't be the big butt plug"