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Wow, the article is a lie. > Nobody, from the lowliest spammer to the grand exulted CEO of a massive company, can remove or change the content of an email mess

Wow, the article is a lie. > Nobody, from the lowliest spammer to the grand exulted CEO of a massive company, can remove or change the content of an email message they have sent to you. No. Unless it is on your own server. And this is an argument against FastMail, and they know it for sure. So why lying so brutally? > FastMail is a provider you can trust Rule of thumb: never trust anyone who says you can trust him/her.

legostormtroopr 9y ago
If I have an IMAP client, I can fetch my emails and download them locally. If the Fastmail CEO sent me an email through Fastmail, with very little technical knowledge, I could set up a regular desktop client to download all those emails locally - headers and all. Even the iPhone default Mail app setup helps you do it. The same is not true of Facebook - those messages belong to Facebook.
- juskrey 9y ago
  You can but only when you're online. And in general everything can be gamed, including email, given you depend on someone in receiving information. So FastMail's argument is just logically inconsistent. More, an agency problem is here.
  - lancewiggs 9y ago
    I have copies of my Fastmail mail on several computers and access the mailboxes when online or offline. It syncs perfectly, is backed up through normal backup techniques and I am in control. There is no mystery here.
    - y4mi 9y ago
      but wouldn't that just depend on your mail client? its technically possible to edit the mail body on the server side and serve the modified message under the same mail ID. I'd wager most clients would invalidate their local copy and trust the new mail from the server, but have to admit that I've never tested such a scenario.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        iOS and Apple mail don’t. Some servers sometimes have the issue of reusing message identifiers and both clients would show the wrong content for the mail. You’d have to force a resync of the whole Mailbox to fix this. Also: A backup of the mailbox would be unaffected by any server-side change.
      - TheSmiddy 9y ago
        most imap clients wouldn't even notice. Once that message is downloaded there's no reason to download it again.
- rovr138 9y ago
  IMAP can also send other instructions like Delete. You might want to consider POP3.
  - hvidgaard 9y ago
    You can setup most IMAP clients to keep a copy of all messages.
  - pleasecalllater 9y ago
    Can, but it doesn't mean that they send. My IMAP accounts keep emails on servers, and in my client.
  - epicide 9y ago
    It can't delete an automatic or manual backup I've made of all/some of my email. I think the argument is that you have a way to export and retain emails while there is nothing you can do with messages on FB other than screenshot.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      If the argument is that I can go out of my way to back something up outside of the regular framework of the software, I could do the same by saving messages from Facebook.
      - dx034 9y ago
        Email backups have been standard for decades. There are solution that follow standards and have been tested in audits. Taking screenshots of Facebook messages is very different from that.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        You could either save the HTML or pretty easily use some JavaScript to extract the message contents to plain text.
micheljansen 9y ago
Is there no way to encrypt or sign e-mail inboxes on the server in such a way that it is tamper-proof? Most solutions focus on preventing individual e-mails to be read or modified by a 3rd party. Does anyone apply similar techniques to a whole mailbox / account?
hollander 9y ago
The same goes for Hotmail and Gmail of course. I download all my gmail-mail, and then it's mine to keep. Google can't delete that unless they hack my machine. They can delete my account, my emails. But the webmail version offers one extra that downloaded mail doesn't: a reasonable guarantee that the mail is not messed with. If I've received an email and keep it in the webmail, I cannot change that. A downloaded mail can be edited, unless it's signed with PGP. I can change content, headers, dates. An email in Gmail webmail cannot be changed by me. And while Google can do that, and maybe an excellent hacker can do that, the chance that you're the victim of that as an average Joe is very small.
- beagle3 9y ago
  > A downloaded mail can be edited, unless it's signed with PGP. What is your threat model? Obviously, it does not include google (and by extension, the state actors that can compel it to do things). But what does it include?
  - hollander 9y ago
    Yes Google and NSA could do such things, and I wouldn't be surprised if Russia could do this as well. But for the ordinary man this won't happen, being a personal target for the big agencies. When you're in court having having a dispute with a customer or your boss, you can't dispute Gmail timestamps etc. That's all I'm saying.
manuelmagic 9y ago
FastMail, as many other e-mail providers, let you download messages. On Facebook, you cannot. Saying "the article is a lie" is an exaggeration.
- mo3gut 9y ago
  "your data belongs to you" Not the SSL certificate for your domain, which Fastmail will acquire with or without your prior knowledge or consent, and to which you have no access or control. https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/secure-website.html https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/secure-website.html
  - rgbrenner 9y ago
    That's for their Files product (which you can use to create a website): https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/website.html https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/website.html They can't request a certificate unless you already pointed your domain to their servers. So if you're already doing that for HTTP, requesting an ssl cert so they can enable HTTPS on it is a perfectly valid request... especially when browsers are starting to mark all HTTP sites as insecure.
erikb 9y ago
> Every man who must say "I am the king" is no true king. https://youtu.be/sgYpGBGDsuE?t=2m2s https://youtu.be/sgYpGBGDsuE?t=2m2s

legostormtroopr 9y ago

If I have an IMAP client, I can fetch my emails and download them locally. If the Fastmail CEO sent me an email through Fastmail, with very little technical knowledge, I could set up a regular desktop client to download all those emails locally - headers and all. Even the iPhone default Mail app setup helps you do it. The same is not true of Facebook - those messages belong to Facebook.

juskrey 9y ago
You can but only when you're online. And in general everything can be gamed, including email, given you depend on someone in receiving information. So FastMail's argument is just logically inconsistent. More, an agency problem is here.
- lancewiggs 9y ago
  I have copies of my Fastmail mail on several computers and access the mailboxes when online or offline. It syncs perfectly, is backed up through normal backup techniques and I am in control. There is no mystery here.
  - y4mi 9y ago
    but wouldn't that just depend on your mail client? its technically possible to edit the mail body on the server side and serve the modified message under the same mail ID. I'd wager most clients would invalidate their local copy and trust the new mail from the server, but have to admit that I've never tested such a scenario.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      iOS and Apple mail don’t. Some servers sometimes have the issue of reusing message identifiers and both clients would show the wrong content for the mail. You’d have to force a resync of the whole Mailbox to fix this. Also: A backup of the mailbox would be unaffected by any server-side change.
    - TheSmiddy 9y ago
      most imap clients wouldn't even notice. Once that message is downloaded there's no reason to download it again.
rovr138 9y ago
IMAP can also send other instructions like Delete. You might want to consider POP3.
- hvidgaard 9y ago
  You can setup most IMAP clients to keep a copy of all messages.
- pleasecalllater 9y ago
  Can, but it doesn't mean that they send. My IMAP accounts keep emails on servers, and in my client.
- epicide 9y ago
  It can't delete an automatic or manual backup I've made of all/some of my email. I think the argument is that you have a way to export and retain emails while there is nothing you can do with messages on FB other than screenshot.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    If the argument is that I can go out of my way to back something up outside of the regular framework of the software, I could do the same by saving messages from Facebook.
    - dx034 9y ago
      Email backups have been standard for decades. There are solution that follow standards and have been tested in audits. Taking screenshots of Facebook messages is very different from that.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        You could either save the HTML or pretty easily use some JavaScript to extract the message contents to plain text.

micheljansen 9y ago

Is there no way to encrypt or sign e-mail inboxes on the server in such a way that it is tamper-proof? Most solutions focus on preventing individual e-mails to be read or modified by a 3rd party. Does anyone apply similar techniques to a whole mailbox / account?

hollander 9y ago

The same goes for Hotmail and Gmail of course. I download all my gmail-mail, and then it's mine to keep. Google can't delete that unless they hack my machine. They can delete my account, my emails. But the webmail version offers one extra that downloaded mail doesn't: a reasonable guarantee that the mail is not messed with. If I've received an email and keep it in the webmail, I cannot change that. A downloaded mail can be edited, unless it's signed with PGP. I can change content, headers, dates. An email in Gmail webmail cannot be changed by me. And while Google can do that, and maybe an excellent hacker can do that, the chance that you're the victim of that as an average Joe is very small.

beagle3 9y ago
> A downloaded mail can be edited, unless it's signed with PGP. What is your threat model? Obviously, it does not include google (and by extension, the state actors that can compel it to do things). But what does it include?
- hollander 9y ago
  Yes Google and NSA could do such things, and I wouldn't be surprised if Russia could do this as well. But for the ordinary man this won't happen, being a personal target for the big agencies. When you're in court having having a dispute with a customer or your boss, you can't dispute Gmail timestamps etc. That's all I'm saying.

manuelmagic 9y ago

FastMail, as many other e-mail providers, let you download messages. On Facebook, you cannot. Saying "the article is a lie" is an exaggeration.

mo3gut 9y ago
"your data belongs to you" Not the SSL certificate for your domain, which Fastmail will acquire with or without your prior knowledge or consent, and to which you have no access or control. https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/secure-website.html https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/secure-website.html
- rgbrenner 9y ago
  That's for their Files product (which you can use to create a website): https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/website.html https://www.fastmail.com/help/files/website.html They can't request a certificate unless you already pointed your domain to their servers. So if you're already doing that for HTTP, requesting an ssl cert so they can enable HTTPS on it is a perfectly valid request... especially when browsers are starting to mark all HTTP sites as insecure.

erikb 9y ago

> Every man who must say "I am the king" is no true king. https://youtu.be/sgYpGBGDsuE?t=2m2s https://youtu.be/sgYpGBGDsuE?t=2m2s