7 ms·

Email doesn’t disappear

106 points by brongondwana 9y ago

rahimnathwani 9y ago
Slight tangent: "Nobody, from the lowliest spammer to the grand exulted CEO of a massive company, can remove or change the content of an email message they have sent to you." Unless the message has embedded images linked from the web. Those images are part of the 'content of an email' as far as most people are concerned, but aren't part of the message envelope. So they can be destroyed or replaced by the sender whenever they want. Do any mail clients aim to deal with this by keeping a permanent copy? (Including the 1x1 tracking pixel content?)
- jwilk 9y ago
  IMO, any decent MUA should deal with this by never loading any remote resources. Tangentially related LWN article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15478546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15478546
  - OJFord 9y ago
    That's an option with Fastmail.
- p49k 9y ago
  GMail supposedly downloads, caches and proxies all images to prevent tracking: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/12/gmail-blows-up-e-mail-marketing-by-caching-all-images-on-google-servers/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/12/gmail...
  - pleasecalllater 9y ago
    Yea, everything to beat the other trackers :)
grandpoobah 9y ago
Massive tangent: I use FastMail for my work email and it's ok, but I wish these guys would introduce a few new features from time to time. Why in 2018 do I not have the ability to "Snooze" an email and come back to it at a later date? or add notes to an email that don't get sent to the person I'm conversing with? or consolidate emails from multiple conversations into a single conversation? Yeah FastMail your service is a better alternative to Gmail because I don't have to worry about being locked out of my email one day for no apparent reason, but why aren't you innovating? Email with Fastmail is just as tedious and boring as it was 10 years ago. tl;dr - less politicised blog posts, more making your service not suck, please.
- stonogo 9y ago
  One person's "tedious and boring" is another person's "reliable."
  - grandpoobah 9y ago
    Reliable and modern are not mutually exclusive. Once you've used a service like Intercom, FrontApp or even Google's "Inbox" you realise emailing can be far more productive. It's a shame that companies like FastMail gave up on trying to improve the experience.
    - epicide 9y ago
      The features you list sound like something that should be implemented by an email client not an email host. I realize they have their own client, but that is really just a means to an end as it is obviously not their core business. On top of that, it sounds like you really want something other than email.
- myhf 9y ago
  Those are all features of the client, not features of the service. You can use a different client if you like.
  - 9y ago
retrogradeorbit 9y ago
Only as long as you host your own mail. If your mail sits on some third party's cloud servers (like fastmail?) they can certainly make your email disappear.
- HenryBemis 9y ago
  Or use a local client (e.g. I've been using MS Outlook since 2000) and download the emails (I don't leave them on my email server). I prefer to keep massive .pst files (which I backup with CrashPlan - and soon Carbonite) on my machine that having them sitting anywhere outside.
juskrey 9y ago
Wow, the article is a lie. > Nobody, from the lowliest spammer to the grand exulted CEO of a massive company, can remove or change the content of an email message they have sent to you. No. Unless it is on your own server. And this is an argument against FastMail, and they know it for sure. So why lying so brutally? > FastMail is a provider you can trust Rule of thumb: never trust anyone who says you can trust him/her.
- legostormtroopr 9y ago
  If I have an IMAP client, I can fetch my emails and download them locally. If the Fastmail CEO sent me an email through Fastmail, with very little technical knowledge, I could set up a regular desktop client to download all those emails locally - headers and all. Even the iPhone default Mail app setup helps you do it. The same is not true of Facebook - those messages belong to Facebook.
  - juskrey 9y ago
    You can but only when you're online. And in general everything can be gamed, including email, given you depend on someone in receiving information. So FastMail's argument is just logically inconsistent. More, an agency problem is here.
    - lancewiggs 9y ago
      I have copies of my Fastmail mail on several computers and access the mailboxes when online or offline. It syncs perfectly, is backed up through normal backup techniques and I am in control. There is no mystery here.
      - y4mi 9y ago
        but wouldn't that just depend on your mail client? its technically possible to edit the mail body on the server side and serve the modified message under the same mail ID. I'd wager most clients would invalidate their local copy and trust the new mail from the server, but have to admit that I've never tested such a scenario.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
evilmoo 9y ago
It's a great advert for Fastmail from the CEO of Fastmail.
erikb 9y ago
I agree that normal email-to-email might not disappear. But considering that most email users are either using Outlook or Gmail, and both these systems not being forced to use Email protocol when the receiver is using the same network, I'd guess that email isn't that much more reliable than FB messages when it comes to getting deleted.
eadmund 9y ago
Well, right now email doesn't disappear — but under the GDPR anyone can demand that an email server delete any messages he sent (or at least remove his name from them). I think that's a horrible approach, but it appears to be what the GDPR demands.
- trinkletingas 9y ago
  Yeah, but POP3
- icedchai 9y ago
  What if someone's already downloaded email from that server, or forwarded it on to their friends? Seems absurd. Anyone can demand anything. You just tell them it can't be done.
dasanman 9y ago
> FastMail is a provider you can trust Really? I mean who writes such a thing literally. It has to be indirect!
- rdl 9y ago
  It's fine to write that if you then explain why you can/should be trusted.
- epicide 9y ago
  Maybe I'm biased towards FastMail, but I'm kinda glad they made it obvious it was an ad (small lead up as to why, then they hit you with a "use our product instead"). I wouldn't say it's worth linking on HN (except maybe to spark a conversation), but here we are. Admittedly, actually using the phrase "____ is a ____ you can trust" is pretty tacky at this point.
Crosseye_Jack 9y ago
Unless your Goldman Sachs https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldman-sachs-wins-court-order-to-make-google-delete-confidential-email-sent-in-error-9581374.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldman-sac... Ok, one of the major points was that the email had yet to be opened/downloaded but still that email disappeared from an inbox.
emodendroket 9y ago
Assuming I'm using IMAP, I still have to trust my mail provider, be it Fastmail or anyone else, right?
- ams6110 9y ago
  Yes, but if you dont, you always have the option to download a local copy of your mailbox. This is how I use email. I use fetchmail to deliver mail to a local mailbox on my hard drive. I don't delete it from the online mailbox, in case I want to access it from the web, but I have my local copy in case the online provider either goes away or does something else with it.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Yeah, but I have the option to download locally a copy of the Facebook Mail page in my Web browser too.

106 points by brongondwana 9y ago

Slight tangent: "Nobody, from the lowliest spammer to the grand exulted CEO of a massive company, can remove or change the content of an email message they have sent to you." Unless the message has embedded images linked from the web. Those images are part of the 'content of an email' as far as most people are concerned, but aren't part of the message envelope. So they can be destroyed or replaced by the sender whenever they want. Do any mail clients aim to deal with this by keeping a permanent copy? (Including the 1x1 tracking pixel content?)

jwilk 9y ago
IMO, any decent MUA should deal with this by never loading any remote resources. Tangentially related LWN article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15478546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15478546
- OJFord 9y ago
  That's an option with Fastmail.
p49k 9y ago
GMail supposedly downloads, caches and proxies all images to prevent tracking: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/12/gmail-blows-up-e-mail-marketing-by-caching-all-images-on-google-servers/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/12/gmail...
- pleasecalllater 9y ago
  Yea, everything to beat the other trackers :)

grandpoobah 9y ago

Massive tangent: I use FastMail for my work email and it's ok, but I wish these guys would introduce a few new features from time to time. Why in 2018 do I not have the ability to "Snooze" an email and come back to it at a later date? or add notes to an email that don't get sent to the person I'm conversing with? or consolidate emails from multiple conversations into a single conversation? Yeah FastMail your service is a better alternative to Gmail because I don't have to worry about being locked out of my email one day for no apparent reason, but why aren't you innovating? Email with Fastmail is just as tedious and boring as it was 10 years ago. tl;dr - less politicised blog posts, more making your service not suck, please.

stonogo 9y ago
One person's "tedious and boring" is another person's "reliable."
- grandpoobah 9y ago
  Reliable and modern are not mutually exclusive. Once you've used a service like Intercom, FrontApp or even Google's "Inbox" you realise emailing can be far more productive. It's a shame that companies like FastMail gave up on trying to improve the experience.
  - epicide 9y ago
    The features you list sound like something that should be implemented by an email client not an email host. I realize they have their own client, but that is really just a means to an end as it is obviously not their core business. On top of that, it sounds like you really want something other than email.
myhf 9y ago
Those are all features of the client, not features of the service. You can use a different client if you like.
- 9y ago

retrogradeorbit 9y ago

Only as long as you host your own mail. If your mail sits on some third party's cloud servers (like fastmail?) they can certainly make your email disappear.

HenryBemis 9y ago
Or use a local client (e.g. I've been using MS Outlook since 2000) and download the emails (I don't leave them on my email server). I prefer to keep massive .pst files (which I backup with CrashPlan - and soon Carbonite) on my machine that having them sitting anywhere outside.

juskrey 9y ago

Wow, the article is a lie. > Nobody, from the lowliest spammer to the grand exulted CEO of a massive company, can remove or change the content of an email message they have sent to you. No. Unless it is on your own server. And this is an argument against FastMail, and they know it for sure. So why lying so brutally? > FastMail is a provider you can trust Rule of thumb: never trust anyone who says you can trust him/her.

legostormtroopr 9y ago
If I have an IMAP client, I can fetch my emails and download them locally. If the Fastmail CEO sent me an email through Fastmail, with very little technical knowledge, I could set up a regular desktop client to download all those emails locally - headers and all. Even the iPhone default Mail app setup helps you do it. The same is not true of Facebook - those messages belong to Facebook.
- juskrey 9y ago
  You can but only when you're online. And in general everything can be gamed, including email, given you depend on someone in receiving information. So FastMail's argument is just logically inconsistent. More, an agency problem is here.
  - lancewiggs 9y ago
    I have copies of my Fastmail mail on several computers and access the mailboxes when online or offline. It syncs perfectly, is backed up through normal backup techniques and I am in control. There is no mystery here.
    - y4mi 9y ago
      but wouldn't that just depend on your mail client? its technically possible to edit the mail body on the server side and serve the modified message under the same mail ID. I'd wager most clients would invalidate their local copy and trust the new mail from the server, but have to admit that I've never tested such a scenario.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

evilmoo 9y ago

It's a great advert for Fastmail from the CEO of Fastmail.

erikb 9y ago

I agree that normal email-to-email might not disappear. But considering that most email users are either using Outlook or Gmail, and both these systems not being forced to use Email protocol when the receiver is using the same network, I'd guess that email isn't that much more reliable than FB messages when it comes to getting deleted.

eadmund 9y ago

Well, right now email doesn't disappear — but under the GDPR anyone can demand that an email server delete any messages he sent (or at least remove his name from them). I think that's a horrible approach, but it appears to be what the GDPR demands.

trinkletingas 9y ago
Yeah, but POP3
icedchai 9y ago
What if someone's already downloaded email from that server, or forwarded it on to their friends? Seems absurd. Anyone can demand anything. You just tell them it can't be done.

dasanman 9y ago

> FastMail is a provider you can trust Really? I mean who writes such a thing literally. It has to be indirect!

rdl 9y ago
It's fine to write that if you then explain why you can/should be trusted.
epicide 9y ago
Maybe I'm biased towards FastMail, but I'm kinda glad they made it obvious it was an ad (small lead up as to why, then they hit you with a "use our product instead"). I wouldn't say it's worth linking on HN (except maybe to spark a conversation), but here we are. Admittedly, actually using the phrase "____ is a ____ you can trust" is pretty tacky at this point.

Crosseye_Jack 9y ago

Unless your Goldman Sachs https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldman-sachs-wins-court-order-to-make-google-delete-confidential-email-sent-in-error-9581374.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldman-sac... Ok, one of the major points was that the email had yet to be opened/downloaded but still that email disappeared from an inbox.

emodendroket 9y ago

Assuming I'm using IMAP, I still have to trust my mail provider, be it Fastmail or anyone else, right?

ams6110 9y ago
Yes, but if you dont, you always have the option to download a local copy of your mailbox. This is how I use email. I use fetchmail to deliver mail to a local mailbox on my hard drive. I don't delete it from the online mailbox, in case I want to access it from the web, but I have my local copy in case the online provider either goes away or does something else with it.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Yeah, but I have the option to download locally a copy of the Facebook Mail page in my Web browser too.