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Some thought on why an explicit social credit score might be better than the current system. The current system already has surveillance. And it's very likely

by jknz 9y ago

Some thought on why an explicit social credit score might be better than the current system. The current system already has surveillance. And it's very likely that some hidden score system is already in place (because surveillance is basically useless without some kind of data-analaysis/filtering tools, which boils down to giving scores to people...) So with the current system, you may be denied government jobs or access to some services based on this hidden scoring system already in place. You will be denied but without knowing why, with no clues on how to fix this. With an explicit social score, contrary to the current system, you see your score going down whenever you do something that does not please the gov. You also get an explicit score increase or (whatever reward) if you manage to change your behavior to please the gov. This makes it possible to understand why your score might go down and to game the system to bring your score back to normal. Gaming the system and understanding how to regain access to denied services is not possible with the (probably) currently implemented hidden scores. Of course, I am fully against this type of surveillance and thankful of not living in such country. But the idea the the new, more explicit social credit scores will be worse than the current system can be challenged.

vermilingua 9y ago
I think you may be wrong, on a technicality. While such “shadow scores” may exist, that’s a part of security clearance. It would only be on applying for a clearance that your score is evaluated. So while you may be denied for a govt. or a specific service, it would only be because you did not pass the clearance you applied for; not because the establishment systematically measures your worth throughout your life. Disclaimer: I live in Australia, where the situation may or may not be the same as the US/Europe.
Arbalest 9y ago
There's a difference between institutional discrimination and casual discrimination. For a hidden system, it may only apply to a few scenarios, but if the information is widely available, everyone has the information with which to discriminate against you. Now that's a negative reinforcement spiral which has very few vectors of escape. Edit: to make matters worse, if someone knows you're being discriminated against, and know you know that, they have a lot more power to abuse against you, because you're likely a lot more desperate to recover any score.
ilkan 9y ago
Creating an accurate numeric ranking of the tens of thousands of varieties of criminal, civil, financial, social and etiquette crimes and infractions, which may or may not be written down, is impossible. If you don't know the methodology, you can't effectively "game" the system. For example, is spitting on the sidewalk remedied by volunteering as an unpaid political canvasser for two months? Or by buying a new car and making the payments on time for at least year? Are these in different slots? Did a coder forget to test an expiration date on certain types of demerits? Are others off by a magnitude factor? You'd never know. The benefit of a lawful society is that the laws are open source. (Takes a lot of meetings to get commit privileges, but that's often more of a feature than a bug)
- sakuronto 9y ago
  Yeah but then you just have these closed-source, buggy, imperfect algorithms run by private corporations instead. And some of those corporations have proven themselves to be very incompetent. Maybe if these numbers are fully gamified in terms of social credit, we would actually have a chance of knowing how and why the government and corporations are judging us the way they are. It doesn't sound much worse to the current situation.
fellellor 9y ago
It's gamification isn't it. They seem to think that this farmville/15 millian credits approach will work on humans, and the end result is a perfectly compliant citizenry. But I don't think such an experiment has been tried out on such a massive scale over a nation of billion plus humans. This is the next great social experiment after the failure of the Soviet Union, so it will be interesting to see the end results. Americans and the West should recognize this a legitimate threat to their civilization, because the success of this system will result in its spread similar to the spread of communism during the cold war days. What the Chinese Social credit system is way beyond simple discrimination.
bsder 9y ago
> You will be denied but without knowing why, with no clues on how to fix this. I agree with you that things like DHS scores are problematic because they are invisible. However, even if you consider your "credit score" to be a hidden system in the US, the usage of that system is not hidden. For example, people in the US have started fighting back against prospective employers using your credit score to deny you employment. In the Chinese system, this is positively encouraged. Personally, I hope China does this more and more and more. The more of this that China implements, the less we have to worry about them on the world stage.
imtringued 9y ago
You must be really naive. The way the chinese system works is that you are silently put on blacklists and your appeals to be removed from the blacklist will be silently rejected for random reasons. >When Mr. Li, the lawyer, was first blacklisted in 2016, it took three weeks before an official talked to him. The court requested a second apology, which he wrote, leading to his removal from the travel blacklist. But he remains on another list, about which he had not been previously informed, this one prohibiting him from applying for credit cards. The court has told Mr. Li to write another apology. https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-credit-blacklist https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-c...
gracepitch 9y ago
I am a single mother of 3 kids and I have tried severally to boost my score to 800 and also clear the negative items on my report. However, i end up getting ripped off by hackers and credit Companies due to my poor credit. The best hacker named Cyber Peter came my rescue me and today I am very happy. He changed my life and now I can boast of having a home, all thanks To him. He can fix your credit report and increase your scores in 2 weeks. Reach him through the Email creditofficial@cyberservices.com

by jknz 9y ago

vermilingua 9y ago

I think you may be wrong, on a technicality. While such “shadow scores” may exist, that’s a part of security clearance. It would only be on applying for a clearance that your score is evaluated. So while you may be denied for a govt. or a specific service, it would only be because you did not pass the clearance you applied for; not because the establishment systematically measures your worth throughout your life. Disclaimer: I live in Australia, where the situation may or may not be the same as the US/Europe.

Arbalest 9y ago

There's a difference between institutional discrimination and casual discrimination. For a hidden system, it may only apply to a few scenarios, but if the information is widely available, everyone has the information with which to discriminate against you. Now that's a negative reinforcement spiral which has very few vectors of escape. Edit: to make matters worse, if someone knows you're being discriminated against, and know you know that, they have a lot more power to abuse against you, because you're likely a lot more desperate to recover any score.

ilkan 9y ago

Creating an accurate numeric ranking of the tens of thousands of varieties of criminal, civil, financial, social and etiquette crimes and infractions, which may or may not be written down, is impossible. If you don't know the methodology, you can't effectively "game" the system. For example, is spitting on the sidewalk remedied by volunteering as an unpaid political canvasser for two months? Or by buying a new car and making the payments on time for at least year? Are these in different slots? Did a coder forget to test an expiration date on certain types of demerits? Are others off by a magnitude factor? You'd never know. The benefit of a lawful society is that the laws are open source. (Takes a lot of meetings to get commit privileges, but that's often more of a feature than a bug)

sakuronto 9y ago
Yeah but then you just have these closed-source, buggy, imperfect algorithms run by private corporations instead. And some of those corporations have proven themselves to be very incompetent. Maybe if these numbers are fully gamified in terms of social credit, we would actually have a chance of knowing how and why the government and corporations are judging us the way they are. It doesn't sound much worse to the current situation.

fellellor 9y ago

It's gamification isn't it. They seem to think that this farmville/15 millian credits approach will work on humans, and the end result is a perfectly compliant citizenry. But I don't think such an experiment has been tried out on such a massive scale over a nation of billion plus humans. This is the next great social experiment after the failure of the Soviet Union, so it will be interesting to see the end results. Americans and the West should recognize this a legitimate threat to their civilization, because the success of this system will result in its spread similar to the spread of communism during the cold war days. What the Chinese Social credit system is way beyond simple discrimination.

bsder 9y ago

> You will be denied but without knowing why, with no clues on how to fix this. I agree with you that things like DHS scores are problematic because they are invisible. However, even if you consider your "credit score" to be a hidden system in the US, the usage of that system is not hidden. For example, people in the US have started fighting back against prospective employers using your credit score to deny you employment. In the Chinese system, this is positively encouraged. Personally, I hope China does this more and more and more. The more of this that China implements, the less we have to worry about them on the world stage.

imtringued 9y ago

You must be really naive. The way the chinese system works is that you are silently put on blacklists and your appeals to be removed from the blacklist will be silently rejected for random reasons. >When Mr. Li, the lawyer, was first blacklisted in 2016, it took three weeks before an official talked to him. The court requested a second apology, which he wrote, leading to his removal from the travel blacklist. But he remains on another list, about which he had not been previously informed, this one prohibiting him from applying for credit cards. The court has told Mr. Li to write another apology. https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-credit-blacklist https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/12/12/chinas-chilling-social-c...

gracepitch 9y ago

I am a single mother of 3 kids and I have tried severally to boost my score to 800 and also clear the negative items on my report. However, i end up getting ripped off by hackers and credit Companies due to my poor credit. The best hacker named Cyber Peter came my rescue me and today I am very happy. He changed my life and now I can boast of having a home, all thanks To him. He can fix your credit report and increase your scores in 2 weeks. Reach him through the Email creditofficial@cyberservices.com