18 ms·

The Subway Is So Late, It’s Making New Yorkers Early

191 points by onuralp 9y ago

swang 9y ago
I took a trip to ny last week and the area i was staying at (near trump tower, off lexington), the closest subways were the 2/3/E/M but apparently on Saturday the 2 and 3 weren't available going downtown, so I had to walk a block or so to get to another line to get where I was going. Then I was in Brooklyn to watch a show that night, we got out around 9PM and was trying to figure out how to get back into the city, the line that was suppose to take us wasn't running it's normal route, so we had to take one stop into Barclays Center which renamed another line to the line that we wanted to go on. Seemed like the locals knew about this though. I didn't experience any major delays, but it was more like there was so much work being done that you had to spend extra energy remembering which line was available only one way and starting at which station. Google Maps was definitely very helpful.
- ng12 9y ago
  > Seemed like the locals knew about this though. I think about this a lot. I know what it means when the AC is rerouted along the F to West 4th and can plan accordingly. How the hell is a tourist supposed to figure out how to get to Fulton?
  - spydum 9y ago
    We just ask the guy/gal at the desk. It's not that crazy, though I will admit, my last trip there added some stress because of this uncertainty.
  - chaosbutters314 9y ago
    NYC needs to be like the tube in London. When I'm at a platform, I expect to see the exact route of the train. No guesswork. The NYC system needs more redundant labeling. Don't assume tourists will see the 1st or 2nd sign. Just keep posting them clearly with too much detail
  - mattlondon 9y ago
    +1. Signage in NYC metro is woefully poor IME. In the London Underground pretty much everywhere you look in the carriage, there is a map or route diagram, with clear announcements and digital signage telling you where you are and where the train is going. Same with the platforms - the station name is repeated many many times everywhere on the platform and there are maps, signage and route plans all over the place. In NYC it seems that maps and signs are kept to a minimum, with some stations just having a singal initial (!) on a grubby ceramic wall tile to identify the station IIRC. The driver might mutter something over the tannoy, but if you're not familiar with the vernacular or plain just don't understand what they said, your often left confused about where you are or if you are going in the right direction.
chrischen 9y ago
What does it exactly mean for a subway that's supposed to run every 3-5 minutes to be "late"? Are NY metro trains so infrequent that a schedule is that important?
- selectodude 9y ago
  It’s not about the train showing up late, it’s about the train taking a long time to go from stop to stop. People are spending more time on the train due to how slow it’s moving.
- pavlov 9y ago
  The trains are frequent, but so are unscheduled stops. Even as a tourist, you don't have to take many rides to get familiar with announcements that start with "We are being held momentarily..."
- closeparen 9y ago
  They're late because they're moving slower and randomly-but-frequently stopping between stations.
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    Most infuriating is when you're on an express that is passed by a local and then forced to stop and wait for the other train to clear.
    - squiggleblaz 9y ago
      More infuriating than that is when you accidentally catch an express that is behind a local and stops at the station you want for five minutes but doesn't open the doors. I've never been to NYC, but that's happened to me sometimes. It's also annoying when it happens to someone else who's like "let me off let me off"
- ardit33 9y ago
  Subways routinely are: 1 late, 2 closed for repair, 3. de routed etc... eg. today, the 6th is not operating uptown, between 9:45 last night, and 6:am next morning You say, fine, I will take another line, but then the 2 and 3 are not operating at all due to 'tunnel repair', You need to go to work? Your choice is go downtown, take one of the express trains to uptown, and take another downtown train. So, your 15 minutes train ride becomes 45+ minutes. You can always take a cab, but this becomes expensive to do regularly, plus during rush hour it is hard to catch one. NYC's subway runs 24hrs in theory only. It is always a whack-amole game if the train is 1. late, or overcrowded, your 2. station is closed, 3. the whole line is not running that day, and My least favorite: 4. Tain strands you for a while, because "there is traffic ahead", or some accident happen. Just as the article mentioned, I noticed I had to start leaving early to make sure I make my soccer games in time (they are in brooklyn). In case the usual route has issues (which happens about 25-30%% of the time during weekends).
fancyfish 9y ago
There is one benefit of leaving early: not having to deal with vast crowds of riders on an overpacked train. Another side effect of underfunding.
jorblumesea 9y ago
I'm confused as to why the US seems to fail or fall so far behind in infrastructure compared to other developed nations. It seems that we throw money at our problems but seemingly get nowhere. It's sad because there's many amazing things about this country, but we cannot do basic things like make trains run on time.
- nkozyra 9y ago
  In almost all cases I think this is a valid critique, but not against the MTA. It's one of the oldest, most complex, largest and among the ten highest daily ridership. To me, it remains an absolute marvel. Of course daily riders do and will forever complain. As someone who riders infrequently and is warned about impending doom, I find myself too often pleasantly surprised.
  - jorblumesea 9y ago
    I don't buy it, many international cities have just as big and complex systems. Trains generally run on time in Paris, London, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing. Seems just about everyone can do it except us. I think it's a valid question to ask, given that there's nothing exceptional about NYC compared to others in its "weight class".
    - eecsninja 9y ago
      +1. I'm tired of hearing people make excuses for the NYC subway system such as age and complexity, seemingly ignorant that there's plenty of large cities in other first-world countries in the 10+ million range that do a much better job. Tokyo was bombed to the ground in WW2 and still manages to do better. I think the actual explanation is that the NYC system was not properly maintained during the postwar period, when America focused on car transit instead. Although plenty of people complain, there is no political will to fix the problem, either at the top or at the bottom. The 24/7 operation and fixed ticket price don't help.
      - jdhn 9y ago
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
I have a limiting rule, living in New York, to leave for meetings no later than 1 hour before the start time. It ensures I’m relaxed and on time. It gives me a moment to observe before the action begins. And it forces me to be more judicious about the number of meetings I book. (Granted, this only works since I can be productive on my phone while I wait.)
- shin_lao 9y ago
  I have exactly the same rule, unless I can got to my appointment by foot.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
To me (as a life long New Yorker) this is yet another sign of our decaying society - our crumbling empire. I've often wondered if the people of Rome understood that their empire was crumbling. Did they actually see the signs as it happened, or did it occur in such a way that the slow-motion decline wasn't sharply felt? The problems here aren't just the subways. The roads, the bridges and other infrastructure are also crumbling around us. The airports are a disaster of endless construction that never get completed and just add to the misery of travelers and the sense of overall decay. The LIRR is as bad or worse as the crumbling subway system. More New Yorkers are living paycheck to paycheck as the cost of housing, healthcare, insurance, and education soar far beyond what working people can afford. Our bloated bureaucracy continues to grow like a cancer, guided by the likes of the eminently corrupt Andrew Cuomo (and his allies in both political parties who serve the same moneyed interests), draining ever-more resources while providing ever-fewer critical services. Homelessness and poverty are increasing, while those at the very top of the economic pyramid are growing fabulously wealthy. Among this myriad of growing problems, we as a nation continue to ignore these issues and pour our limited resources into endless foreign wars and occupations. Unfortunately, dark days are ahead.
- kyledrake 9y ago
  Increased demand for the subway is not a sign of decaying society, it's a sign of prosperity and growth. It's a sign that people feel more safe using the system and living in New York, and that there are more opportunities for people living there. I for one would much rather live in a NY dealing with some temporary growth success issues than live in NY during the 70s (or really, any time before).
  - StanislavPetrov 9y ago
    I've lived in New York City for over 40 years. If you view crumbling infrastructure, 44% of NYC residents living at or near the poverty line and soaring homelessness as signs of "prosperity", that's your prerogative. https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nyc-homeless-population-grew-4-year-data-show https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nyc-homeless-popula... I suggest you fly into Laguardia airport to see some world class prosperity. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/07/28/laguardia-worst-airport-crowded-concourses-terminal-weather-flight-disruptions/30782433/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/07/28/lag... http://abc7ny.com/traffic/traffic-nightmare-for-drivers-heading-to-laguardia-airport/2702148/ http://abc7ny.com/traffic/traffic-nightmare-for-drivers-head... If you want to enjoy even more "prosperity", you can pay $344 a month to ride the LIRR (as long as you don't have to get anywhere on time). https://nypost.com/2018/03/15/last-years-lirr-delays-cost-riders-millions/ https://nypost.com/2018/03/15/last-years-lirr-delays-cost-ri...
wgerard 9y ago
It's interesting seeing the ways people work around this, even for people who don't have hard start/end times (e.g. tech employees). I have one friend who uses Citi Bike to get to important meetings < 30 blocks away, because they don't trust the subway to get them there on time (and during peak hours, cabs are even slower). I have another who goes pretty far out of their way to avoid the more troublesome lines (the F, specifically). Some have started using the bus much more regularly, because at least the bus doesn't break down for an hour at a time. One manager I know just stopped scheduling any meetings before 11, because they got tired of having people miss meetings or come in late because of the trains. I think people who don't live in the city don't realize how (relatively) stressful it can be when the trains are late. Riding the train during peak hours is already a pretty stressful experience: The sardine analogy is very real, and it's fairly common for trains to be so packed that I literally don't have room to even put my phone in front of my face (let alone a book or anything else) to pass the time. Now imagine that, but the train platform is also similarly packed. And people are fighting (sometimes literally) to get onto the packed train. And you'll have to wait for 2-3 trains to pass, because there's no empty space on the trains. And you're late, and you have no idea when you'll get to where you're going because the train ETA board just says "Delay". And when you need to get off the train, you'll have to just pray that people make room for you or you'll have to really force your way through the crowd on your way out.
- m_ke 9y ago
  I just work from home most days now because of how bad it has gotten. I had to move back to Queens a few months ago near where I grew up and the trip to SoHo that used to take at most 45 minutes is now 60-90 min. A few times I was stuck on the E for around 2.5 hours. Living in the outer boroughs has become a huge disadvantage.
  - closeparen 9y ago
    Even 45 minutes is an enormous amount of commute time for a normal American city. Twice the median. Coastal megacities may be dense in space, but seem to be less dense in travel time than standard Midwestern sprawl.
  - 9y ago
borne0 9y ago
The trains should only run on tracks that are completely enclosed (More control on the environment will realize better reliability, and as an aside nicer living space. Raised tracks are ugly.), Also they should run on rubber wheels like the Montreal metro has since 1966. Both metros should have barrier between platforms and tracks since they know where the doors will open. It's sad but a non-negligible cause of delays are due to people jumping on the tracks.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > Both metros should have barrier between platforms and tracks since they know where the doors will open. This only works for environments with one type of rolling stock only. It's not uncommon that you take a ride in a decades-old train (e.g. the oldest trains in the Munich subway hail from 1971, they are expected to run for essentially over 50 years!), switch lines at a station and end up in a train that rolled off the factory line 2 years ago. Each new train generation has, for example, different door widths, door positions, even the number of doors per wagon can change.
  - borne0 9y ago
    That's true. Montreal just upgraded their rolling stock: (The MR-73 didn't owe them anything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR-73 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR-73) but the new cars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPM-10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPM-10) have the doors in the same place as the MR-73 cars. Admittedly I hadn't thought of that, but I don't think there's that much variety in rolling stock for a given location, and when speccing out replacements I don't think it's too much to ask that the doors are in the same place (cars are purchased in dozens...), maybe I'm wrong. Montreal is a much smaller network than New York.
    - loufe 9y ago
      Exactly. The generations don't HAVE to have different dimensions. There's no worldwide metro standard across all dimensions leading to "common" models, every subway system requires custom made. Of course they can work them in, like they do in Montreal (where I see them working harmoniously)
wink 9y ago
I'm confused about the part with the teacher. Where I went to school ALL the teachers arrived 15-60 minutes earlier and went into their dedicated room. I don't remember exactly, but one of them coming in late was a "once every few years" thing. Sure it sucks if you're early but I suppose they could also just get some take-home work (like grading tests) that's not due that day or prepare some stuff. Sure, some of them probably killed the time with morning newspaper and coffee... but still.
- angelsl 9y ago
  Oh man. Where I'm from (Singapore), tests are more of a never-take-home-unless-you-absolutely-have-to work.
m3kw9 9y ago
Same with driving with variable traffic
kgc 9y ago
Maybe they should have scheduled maintenance closures that reoccur over the same parts of the day every day. Say, 1-5am?. So, it would be a 20hr/day instead of 24hr/day subway, but would be dependable during those 20 hrs.
- pmiller2 9y ago
  Then how do people get home from the bars? That's my major complaint about BART, that it stops running too early. If I'm out late enough in the city, I can't return to the East Bay easily, so I either end up stressing to get the last train, or end up having to use my car, which has its own stress involved.
  - anonymfus 9y ago
    In Moscow where Metro is officially closed from 1:00 up to 5:30 there are special night buses and trams for this.
    - twic 9y ago
      Same in London (buses, not sure about trams). Catching a night bus home from Trafalgar Square along with eighty other people who are also at the wrong end of a big night out is a classic rite of passage for Londoners. It got a bit less overwhelming when they started running the night buses from all over central London rather than just from Trafalgar Square. It's changed again recently now that some underground lines are 24 hour.
      - dx034 9y ago
        London night tube remains weekends only, though. And even then, 30% of passengers are going from/to work. The importance of a 24h subway is not to get drunk people home but to help people working night/early shifts. The main reason London will not get intra-week night tube anytime soon is because of the maintenance issues this causes. The NYC subway was explicitly mentioned when this was proposed.
  - 9y ago
dazc 9y ago
Pure coincidence? Meet the Brit in charge of fixing NYC's subway. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43561378 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43561378
DalekBaldwin 9y ago
The fundamental reason for worsening subway service in recent years may be more mundane than we assumed: https://www.villagevoice.com/2018/03/13/the-trains-are-slower-because-they-slowed-the-trains-down/ https://www.villagevoice.com/2018/03/13/the-trains-are-slowe... It was slowly driving me insane at my last job. Now, I just have to dial in to the morning meeting, then I can work from home for about an hour before heading in to the office, and we've been asked to stay home even for fairly light snowstorms this winter. I wouldn't be surprised if other tech companies in the city are adding more flexibility to their work hours.
- peter303 9y ago
  The system is a century old with original electromechanical controllers.
  - technofiend 9y ago
    And intentional slow downs due to prevent accidents. The siganling system needs to be replaced so trains can safely go faster. Not disagreement as much as just expanding on your comment.
  - tokyoguy 9y ago
    that is no excuse. it's called maintenance. other cities manage to maintain their transit system . NYC has zero excuse . See Tokyo's transit history for how often they've upgrade the entire system a piece at a time.
    - apaprocki 9y ago
      ... and do most of those upgrades take place when the Tokyo subway shuts down each night between 1am and 5am? It's hard to replace signal systems on tracks with a train passing every few minutes.
      - squiggleblaz 9y ago
        So if the Tokyo subway shuts down each night between 1am and 5am, why can't the NYC subway shut parts down periodically? It's common here in Melbourne to have whole lines shut down during the summer for maintenance or other service changes (e.g. removing level crossings). We hate it but we cope. There's literally no excuse for not maintaining your infrastructure. Every probably can be solved. Shut down a line every night till the job is done. Or shut it down for a day or two. Is the line integrated with others? Maybe you'll have to shut down three or four lines. People will hate it. But if it avoids months and months of problems to have a few days, they'll cope.
danjayh 9y ago
God I'm glad that I live in a city where the public transit fans have soundly lost.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mattupstate 9y ago
Wow, not one person read this article and saw the NYC cultural commentary? Don't you all know we hate being early as much as we hate being late?
scarface74 9y ago
Just to put things in perspective. https://www.moneycrashers.com/worst-us-cities-traffic-commute-time/ https://www.moneycrashers.com/worst-us-cities-traffic-commut... I've been commuting (by car) for 30-60 minutes one way depending on my job for 20+ years in Atlanta. I didn't realize that a 30 minute commute was considered "bad". It really doesn't bother me. I put on a podcast and enjoy the downtime. I also don't have young kids. When my 15 year old son has to stay late and I can't get to him,I just tell him to take Uber. My wife and I have agreed to "work hard, play hard". We cherish our weekends. All that being said, I can understand the difference being stuck outside in the cold at the whims of public transportation and being in your own car.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  The idea of spending all weekday hours working and "cherishing" weekends is terrible to me. If I can't go out on any weeknight and enjoy time with friends or family due to having to commute, then I'm looking for a change.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    My friends are so disbursed in the metro area we wouldn't even think about trying to deal with the traffic in the evening. I have a group of friends that work close enough together to meet for lunch with proper planning but we wouldn't dare voluntarily deal with evening traffic to meet up. When I was dating my now wife, we lived in opposite sides of town - 38 miles apart. That's life in a major metro area. You either live in the burbs where you can get a nice affordable big house or live closer to where the jobs are and live in a shoebox.
tokyoguy 9y ago
it's frustrating to read this thread and watch people make excuses for NYC . NYC is not special. Tokyo has old subways 3-4x the stations and 10x the riders. They manage to rebuild , change tracks, build new ones and generally do the maintainence and upkeep required to keep it running well and on time. NYC's issues are entirely about politics and leadership and nothing to do with anything unique to NYC que more excuses
- dx034 9y ago
  NYC is unique in that they are one of the few systems running non-stop. Any maintenance results in delays. Other large systems (Tokyo, Moscow, London) shut down most nights. Those 4-5 hour windows can make a lot of difference.
  - piva00 9y ago
    As I mentioned in another comment: what stops NYC from running replacement busses while one of the lines is under maintenance during the night? A bunch of cities do that, for example Berlin, I don't see what stops NYC from doing the same...
    - dx034 9y ago
      The economy of Berlin is based on available transport. Using buses prolongs journeys a lot, e.g. in London the city estimated that a sizeable chunk of people will see a 30+ minute journey reduction due to night tube. Using replacement buses works but would likely damage 24h businesses and take one of New York's advantages away.
    - cocoablazing 9y ago
      The highway organization and hydrology of NYC Metro and Berlin/Tokyo/Beijing are very different.
evincarofautumn 9y ago
Similarly, I’ve come to rely on BART being late—although instead of arriving too early, I’m more likely to arrive late when I bet on a few minutes to spare, but the train happens to be running on time…and then end up working later to compensate.
Regardsyjc 9y ago
I've had a couple instances where the MTA was so messed up either through delays or a weekend schedule change that I had to get off the subway and order an Uber to reach my destination... SHOWTIME folks seem to be starting again. I still have a strange anxiety that some crazy person will push me into the tracks if I get too close after those string of incidents a few years back. And now I also wonder when the next train derailment will be since those seem to now be a real possibility. Some of our trains are literally past their expiration date and begging for an accident. .
somberi 9y ago
Many readers have quoted the superiority (rightfully so), of Moscow and Tokyo subway systems. Both these systems operate from around 5am till midnight (approx). NYC Subway operates 24 hours. These few hours downtime, make a huge difference with respect to maintainability and upkeep. These 4 hours each day adds up to ~60 full days of maintenance window. Maybe NYC can stop the late-night services for a year or so and I am sure better brains than mine have considered this. On a separate note, it might help to note that usage of NYC Subway has increased by 80% over the last ~20 years (1). It will be interesting to see the same trend for Moscow and Tokyo subways. NewYorker here and Subway rider here. (1)https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subway-delays-overcrowding.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...
- randall 9y ago
  Late night tho... that 2am subway home is a lifeline for a lot of folks. I remember getting home at like 4am once thanks to the subway. I could probably live without it, but it wouldn't be as nice.
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    You need to boost other public transport services to provide at least some level of late night service. In Sydney, they run substitute buses between many railway stations from 0000-0430 - it's not great, but it's possible to use buses to provide a minimum level of service coverage when the railways are shut down.
  - claudius 9y ago
    Wouldn’t it be possible to have nightline buses operating the same routes as the subway during that window? It works well e.g. in Berlin and Munich and only takes minimally longer than the train (since the roads are not congested at night and the bus can hence go much faster). At least it should be possible for a temporary maintenance window?
- piva00 9y ago
  What stops NYC to do what any other city in the world does and just run a replacement bus line for the lines under maintenance? Even more if it's during the night, run a replacement bus close to the same stops as the stations and shut down the line. Or isn't NYC Metro card integrated between different modes of transportation?
ttn 9y ago
After I started riding motorcycle instead of public services or my car, time spent during transportation reduced almost %80. I live in Istanbul, when I leave work to go home (prime time) it takes up to 2 hours with car and 1.5 hour with public transportation to reach home. With my motorcycle it is around 25-35 minutes.
- ttn 9y ago
  There are many advantages (and few disadvantages) riding, for me time spent on road was the killer and you can not imagine how much I recommend it.
ggm 9y ago
I haven't been in NY for over 10 years. When I was there, the subway was fantastic. On time, cheap and clean (ish) Has there been some very rapid drop in service? is this something which forseeably could get better soon, or is it a one-way hole without a huge capital investment?
- gberger 9y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/nyregion/mta-train-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/nyregion/mta-train-delays...
jotjotzzz 9y ago
NYC will never know how bad it is until they go out of the U.S. to such places in Asia like Thailand, HK, Taiwan, or Japan and experience those subway stations. There is no such thing as a "weekend service" and subways arrive on-time without question, there are clean restrooms and WiFi. The NYC subway is decades behind. It has remained stagnant in advancements and has now broken down due to lack of development and overcrowding. It's a problem.

191 points by onuralp 9y ago

I took a trip to ny last week and the area i was staying at (near trump tower, off lexington), the closest subways were the 2/3/E/M but apparently on Saturday the 2 and 3 weren't available going downtown, so I had to walk a block or so to get to another line to get where I was going. Then I was in Brooklyn to watch a show that night, we got out around 9PM and was trying to figure out how to get back into the city, the line that was suppose to take us wasn't running it's normal route, so we had to take one stop into Barclays Center which renamed another line to the line that we wanted to go on. Seemed like the locals knew about this though. I didn't experience any major delays, but it was more like there was so much work being done that you had to spend extra energy remembering which line was available only one way and starting at which station. Google Maps was definitely very helpful.

ng12 9y ago
> Seemed like the locals knew about this though. I think about this a lot. I know what it means when the AC is rerouted along the F to West 4th and can plan accordingly. How the hell is a tourist supposed to figure out how to get to Fulton?
- spydum 9y ago
  We just ask the guy/gal at the desk. It's not that crazy, though I will admit, my last trip there added some stress because of this uncertainty.
- chaosbutters314 9y ago
  NYC needs to be like the tube in London. When I'm at a platform, I expect to see the exact route of the train. No guesswork. The NYC system needs more redundant labeling. Don't assume tourists will see the 1st or 2nd sign. Just keep posting them clearly with too much detail
- mattlondon 9y ago
  +1. Signage in NYC metro is woefully poor IME. In the London Underground pretty much everywhere you look in the carriage, there is a map or route diagram, with clear announcements and digital signage telling you where you are and where the train is going. Same with the platforms - the station name is repeated many many times everywhere on the platform and there are maps, signage and route plans all over the place. In NYC it seems that maps and signs are kept to a minimum, with some stations just having a singal initial (!) on a grubby ceramic wall tile to identify the station IIRC. The driver might mutter something over the tannoy, but if you're not familiar with the vernacular or plain just don't understand what they said, your often left confused about where you are or if you are going in the right direction.

chrischen 9y ago

What does it exactly mean for a subway that's supposed to run every 3-5 minutes to be "late"? Are NY metro trains so infrequent that a schedule is that important?

selectodude 9y ago
It’s not about the train showing up late, it’s about the train taking a long time to go from stop to stop. People are spending more time on the train due to how slow it’s moving.
pavlov 9y ago
The trains are frequent, but so are unscheduled stops. Even as a tourist, you don't have to take many rides to get familiar with announcements that start with "We are being held momentarily..."
closeparen 9y ago
They're late because they're moving slower and randomly-but-frequently stopping between stations.
- kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
  Most infuriating is when you're on an express that is passed by a local and then forced to stop and wait for the other train to clear.
  - squiggleblaz 9y ago
    More infuriating than that is when you accidentally catch an express that is behind a local and stops at the station you want for five minutes but doesn't open the doors. I've never been to NYC, but that's happened to me sometimes. It's also annoying when it happens to someone else who's like "let me off let me off"
ardit33 9y ago
Subways routinely are: 1 late, 2 closed for repair, 3. de routed etc... eg. today, the 6th is not operating uptown, between 9:45 last night, and 6:am next morning You say, fine, I will take another line, but then the 2 and 3 are not operating at all due to 'tunnel repair', You need to go to work? Your choice is go downtown, take one of the express trains to uptown, and take another downtown train. So, your 15 minutes train ride becomes 45+ minutes. You can always take a cab, but this becomes expensive to do regularly, plus during rush hour it is hard to catch one. NYC's subway runs 24hrs in theory only. It is always a whack-amole game if the train is 1. late, or overcrowded, your 2. station is closed, 3. the whole line is not running that day, and My least favorite: 4. Tain strands you for a while, because "there is traffic ahead", or some accident happen. Just as the article mentioned, I noticed I had to start leaving early to make sure I make my soccer games in time (they are in brooklyn). In case the usual route has issues (which happens about 25-30%% of the time during weekends).

fancyfish 9y ago

There is one benefit of leaving early: not having to deal with vast crowds of riders on an overpacked train. Another side effect of underfunding.

jorblumesea 9y ago

I'm confused as to why the US seems to fail or fall so far behind in infrastructure compared to other developed nations. It seems that we throw money at our problems but seemingly get nowhere. It's sad because there's many amazing things about this country, but we cannot do basic things like make trains run on time.

nkozyra 9y ago
In almost all cases I think this is a valid critique, but not against the MTA. It's one of the oldest, most complex, largest and among the ten highest daily ridership. To me, it remains an absolute marvel. Of course daily riders do and will forever complain. As someone who riders infrequently and is warned about impending doom, I find myself too often pleasantly surprised.
- jorblumesea 9y ago
  I don't buy it, many international cities have just as big and complex systems. Trains generally run on time in Paris, London, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing. Seems just about everyone can do it except us. I think it's a valid question to ask, given that there's nothing exceptional about NYC compared to others in its "weight class".
  - eecsninja 9y ago
    +1. I'm tired of hearing people make excuses for the NYC subway system such as age and complexity, seemingly ignorant that there's plenty of large cities in other first-world countries in the 10+ million range that do a much better job. Tokyo was bombed to the ground in WW2 and still manages to do better. I think the actual explanation is that the NYC system was not properly maintained during the postwar period, when America focused on car transit instead. Although plenty of people complain, there is no political will to fix the problem, either at the top or at the bottom. The 24/7 operation and fixed ticket price don't help.
    - jdhn 9y ago

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

I have a limiting rule, living in New York, to leave for meetings no later than 1 hour before the start time. It ensures I’m relaxed and on time. It gives me a moment to observe before the action begins. And it forces me to be more judicious about the number of meetings I book. (Granted, this only works since I can be productive on my phone while I wait.)

shin_lao 9y ago
I have exactly the same rule, unless I can got to my appointment by foot.
deleted 9y ago
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StanislavPetrov 9y ago

To me (as a life long New Yorker) this is yet another sign of our decaying society - our crumbling empire. I've often wondered if the people of Rome understood that their empire was crumbling. Did they actually see the signs as it happened, or did it occur in such a way that the slow-motion decline wasn't sharply felt? The problems here aren't just the subways. The roads, the bridges and other infrastructure are also crumbling around us. The airports are a disaster of endless construction that never get completed and just add to the misery of travelers and the sense of overall decay. The LIRR is as bad or worse as the crumbling subway system. More New Yorkers are living paycheck to paycheck as the cost of housing, healthcare, insurance, and education soar far beyond what working people can afford. Our bloated bureaucracy continues to grow like a cancer, guided by the likes of the eminently corrupt Andrew Cuomo (and his allies in both political parties who serve the same moneyed interests), draining ever-more resources while providing ever-fewer critical services. Homelessness and poverty are increasing, while those at the very top of the economic pyramid are growing fabulously wealthy. Among this myriad of growing problems, we as a nation continue to ignore these issues and pour our limited resources into endless foreign wars and occupations. Unfortunately, dark days are ahead.

kyledrake 9y ago
Increased demand for the subway is not a sign of decaying society, it's a sign of prosperity and growth. It's a sign that people feel more safe using the system and living in New York, and that there are more opportunities for people living there. I for one would much rather live in a NY dealing with some temporary growth success issues than live in NY during the 70s (or really, any time before).
- StanislavPetrov 9y ago
  I've lived in New York City for over 40 years. If you view crumbling infrastructure, 44% of NYC residents living at or near the poverty line and soaring homelessness as signs of "prosperity", that's your prerogative. https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nyc-homeless-population-grew-4-year-data-show https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nyc-homeless-popula... I suggest you fly into Laguardia airport to see some world class prosperity. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/07/28/laguardia-worst-airport-crowded-concourses-terminal-weather-flight-disruptions/30782433/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/07/28/lag... http://abc7ny.com/traffic/traffic-nightmare-for-drivers-heading-to-laguardia-airport/2702148/ http://abc7ny.com/traffic/traffic-nightmare-for-drivers-head... If you want to enjoy even more "prosperity", you can pay $344 a month to ride the LIRR (as long as you don't have to get anywhere on time). https://nypost.com/2018/03/15/last-years-lirr-delays-cost-riders-millions/ https://nypost.com/2018/03/15/last-years-lirr-delays-cost-ri...

wgerard 9y ago

It's interesting seeing the ways people work around this, even for people who don't have hard start/end times (e.g. tech employees). I have one friend who uses Citi Bike to get to important meetings < 30 blocks away, because they don't trust the subway to get them there on time (and during peak hours, cabs are even slower). I have another who goes pretty far out of their way to avoid the more troublesome lines (the F, specifically). Some have started using the bus much more regularly, because at least the bus doesn't break down for an hour at a time. One manager I know just stopped scheduling any meetings before 11, because they got tired of having people miss meetings or come in late because of the trains. I think people who don't live in the city don't realize how (relatively) stressful it can be when the trains are late. Riding the train during peak hours is already a pretty stressful experience: The sardine analogy is very real, and it's fairly common for trains to be so packed that I literally don't have room to even put my phone in front of my face (let alone a book or anything else) to pass the time. Now imagine that, but the train platform is also similarly packed. And people are fighting (sometimes literally) to get onto the packed train. And you'll have to wait for 2-3 trains to pass, because there's no empty space on the trains. And you're late, and you have no idea when you'll get to where you're going because the train ETA board just says "Delay". And when you need to get off the train, you'll have to just pray that people make room for you or you'll have to really force your way through the crowd on your way out.

m_ke 9y ago
I just work from home most days now because of how bad it has gotten. I had to move back to Queens a few months ago near where I grew up and the trip to SoHo that used to take at most 45 minutes is now 60-90 min. A few times I was stuck on the E for around 2.5 hours. Living in the outer boroughs has become a huge disadvantage.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Even 45 minutes is an enormous amount of commute time for a normal American city. Twice the median. Coastal megacities may be dense in space, but seem to be less dense in travel time than standard Midwestern sprawl.
- 9y ago

borne0 9y ago

The trains should only run on tracks that are completely enclosed (More control on the environment will realize better reliability, and as an aside nicer living space. Raised tracks are ugly.), Also they should run on rubber wheels like the Montreal metro has since 1966. Both metros should have barrier between platforms and tracks since they know where the doors will open. It's sad but a non-negligible cause of delays are due to people jumping on the tracks.

mschuster91 9y ago
> Both metros should have barrier between platforms and tracks since they know where the doors will open. This only works for environments with one type of rolling stock only. It's not uncommon that you take a ride in a decades-old train (e.g. the oldest trains in the Munich subway hail from 1971, they are expected to run for essentially over 50 years!), switch lines at a station and end up in a train that rolled off the factory line 2 years ago. Each new train generation has, for example, different door widths, door positions, even the number of doors per wagon can change.
- borne0 9y ago
  That's true. Montreal just upgraded their rolling stock: (The MR-73 didn't owe them anything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR-73 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR-73) but the new cars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPM-10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPM-10) have the doors in the same place as the MR-73 cars. Admittedly I hadn't thought of that, but I don't think there's that much variety in rolling stock for a given location, and when speccing out replacements I don't think it's too much to ask that the doors are in the same place (cars are purchased in dozens...), maybe I'm wrong. Montreal is a much smaller network than New York.
  - loufe 9y ago
    Exactly. The generations don't HAVE to have different dimensions. There's no worldwide metro standard across all dimensions leading to "common" models, every subway system requires custom made. Of course they can work them in, like they do in Montreal (where I see them working harmoniously)

wink 9y ago

I'm confused about the part with the teacher. Where I went to school ALL the teachers arrived 15-60 minutes earlier and went into their dedicated room. I don't remember exactly, but one of them coming in late was a "once every few years" thing. Sure it sucks if you're early but I suppose they could also just get some take-home work (like grading tests) that's not due that day or prepare some stuff. Sure, some of them probably killed the time with morning newspaper and coffee... but still.

angelsl 9y ago
Oh man. Where I'm from (Singapore), tests are more of a never-take-home-unless-you-absolutely-have-to work.

m3kw9 9y ago

Same with driving with variable traffic

kgc 9y ago

Maybe they should have scheduled maintenance closures that reoccur over the same parts of the day every day. Say, 1-5am?. So, it would be a 20hr/day instead of 24hr/day subway, but would be dependable during those 20 hrs.

pmiller2 9y ago
Then how do people get home from the bars? That's my major complaint about BART, that it stops running too early. If I'm out late enough in the city, I can't return to the East Bay easily, so I either end up stressing to get the last train, or end up having to use my car, which has its own stress involved.
- anonymfus 9y ago
  In Moscow where Metro is officially closed from 1:00 up to 5:30 there are special night buses and trams for this.
  - twic 9y ago
    Same in London (buses, not sure about trams). Catching a night bus home from Trafalgar Square along with eighty other people who are also at the wrong end of a big night out is a classic rite of passage for Londoners. It got a bit less overwhelming when they started running the night buses from all over central London rather than just from Trafalgar Square. It's changed again recently now that some underground lines are 24 hour.
    - dx034 9y ago
      London night tube remains weekends only, though. And even then, 30% of passengers are going from/to work. The importance of a 24h subway is not to get drunk people home but to help people working night/early shifts. The main reason London will not get intra-week night tube anytime soon is because of the maintenance issues this causes. The NYC subway was explicitly mentioned when this was proposed.
- 9y ago

dazc 9y ago

Pure coincidence? Meet the Brit in charge of fixing NYC's subway. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43561378 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43561378

DalekBaldwin 9y ago

The fundamental reason for worsening subway service in recent years may be more mundane than we assumed: https://www.villagevoice.com/2018/03/13/the-trains-are-slower-because-they-slowed-the-trains-down/ https://www.villagevoice.com/2018/03/13/the-trains-are-slowe... It was slowly driving me insane at my last job. Now, I just have to dial in to the morning meeting, then I can work from home for about an hour before heading in to the office, and we've been asked to stay home even for fairly light snowstorms this winter. I wouldn't be surprised if other tech companies in the city are adding more flexibility to their work hours.

peter303 9y ago
The system is a century old with original electromechanical controllers.
- technofiend 9y ago
  And intentional slow downs due to prevent accidents. The siganling system needs to be replaced so trains can safely go faster. Not disagreement as much as just expanding on your comment.
- tokyoguy 9y ago
  that is no excuse. it's called maintenance. other cities manage to maintain their transit system . NYC has zero excuse . See Tokyo's transit history for how often they've upgrade the entire system a piece at a time.
  - apaprocki 9y ago
    ... and do most of those upgrades take place when the Tokyo subway shuts down each night between 1am and 5am? It's hard to replace signal systems on tracks with a train passing every few minutes.
    - squiggleblaz 9y ago
      So if the Tokyo subway shuts down each night between 1am and 5am, why can't the NYC subway shut parts down periodically? It's common here in Melbourne to have whole lines shut down during the summer for maintenance or other service changes (e.g. removing level crossings). We hate it but we cope. There's literally no excuse for not maintaining your infrastructure. Every probably can be solved. Shut down a line every night till the job is done. Or shut it down for a day or two. Is the line integrated with others? Maybe you'll have to shut down three or four lines. People will hate it. But if it avoids months and months of problems to have a few days, they'll cope.

danjayh 9y ago

God I'm glad that I live in a city where the public transit fans have soundly lost.

deleted 9y ago

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mattupstate 9y ago

Wow, not one person read this article and saw the NYC cultural commentary? Don't you all know we hate being early as much as we hate being late?

scarface74 9y ago

Just to put things in perspective. https://www.moneycrashers.com/worst-us-cities-traffic-commute-time/ https://www.moneycrashers.com/worst-us-cities-traffic-commut... I've been commuting (by car) for 30-60 minutes one way depending on my job for 20+ years in Atlanta. I didn't realize that a 30 minute commute was considered "bad". It really doesn't bother me. I put on a podcast and enjoy the downtime. I also don't have young kids. When my 15 year old son has to stay late and I can't get to him,I just tell him to take Uber. My wife and I have agreed to "work hard, play hard". We cherish our weekends. All that being said, I can understand the difference being stuck outside in the cold at the whims of public transportation and being in your own car.

lotsofpulp 9y ago
The idea of spending all weekday hours working and "cherishing" weekends is terrible to me. If I can't go out on any weeknight and enjoy time with friends or family due to having to commute, then I'm looking for a change.
- scarface74 9y ago
  My friends are so disbursed in the metro area we wouldn't even think about trying to deal with the traffic in the evening. I have a group of friends that work close enough together to meet for lunch with proper planning but we wouldn't dare voluntarily deal with evening traffic to meet up. When I was dating my now wife, we lived in opposite sides of town - 38 miles apart. That's life in a major metro area. You either live in the burbs where you can get a nice affordable big house or live closer to where the jobs are and live in a shoebox.

tokyoguy 9y ago

it's frustrating to read this thread and watch people make excuses for NYC . NYC is not special. Tokyo has old subways 3-4x the stations and 10x the riders. They manage to rebuild , change tracks, build new ones and generally do the maintainence and upkeep required to keep it running well and on time. NYC's issues are entirely about politics and leadership and nothing to do with anything unique to NYC que more excuses

dx034 9y ago
NYC is unique in that they are one of the few systems running non-stop. Any maintenance results in delays. Other large systems (Tokyo, Moscow, London) shut down most nights. Those 4-5 hour windows can make a lot of difference.
- piva00 9y ago
  As I mentioned in another comment: what stops NYC from running replacement busses while one of the lines is under maintenance during the night? A bunch of cities do that, for example Berlin, I don't see what stops NYC from doing the same...
  - dx034 9y ago
    The economy of Berlin is based on available transport. Using buses prolongs journeys a lot, e.g. in London the city estimated that a sizeable chunk of people will see a 30+ minute journey reduction due to night tube. Using replacement buses works but would likely damage 24h businesses and take one of New York's advantages away.
  - cocoablazing 9y ago
    The highway organization and hydrology of NYC Metro and Berlin/Tokyo/Beijing are very different.

evincarofautumn 9y ago

Similarly, I’ve come to rely on BART being late—although instead of arriving too early, I’m more likely to arrive late when I bet on a few minutes to spare, but the train happens to be running on time…and then end up working later to compensate.

Regardsyjc 9y ago

I've had a couple instances where the MTA was so messed up either through delays or a weekend schedule change that I had to get off the subway and order an Uber to reach my destination... SHOWTIME folks seem to be starting again. I still have a strange anxiety that some crazy person will push me into the tracks if I get too close after those string of incidents a few years back. And now I also wonder when the next train derailment will be since those seem to now be a real possibility. Some of our trains are literally past their expiration date and begging for an accident. .

somberi 9y ago

Many readers have quoted the superiority (rightfully so), of Moscow and Tokyo subway systems. Both these systems operate from around 5am till midnight (approx). NYC Subway operates 24 hours. These few hours downtime, make a huge difference with respect to maintainability and upkeep. These 4 hours each day adds up to ~60 full days of maintenance window. Maybe NYC can stop the late-night services for a year or so and I am sure better brains than mine have considered this. On a separate note, it might help to note that usage of NYC Subway has increased by 80% over the last ~20 years (1). It will be interesting to see the same trend for Moscow and Tokyo subways. NewYorker here and Subway rider here. (1)https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subway-delays-overcrowding.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...

randall 9y ago
Late night tho... that 2am subway home is a lifeline for a lot of folks. I remember getting home at like 4am once thanks to the subway. I could probably live without it, but it wouldn't be as nice.
- ajdlinux 9y ago
  You need to boost other public transport services to provide at least some level of late night service. In Sydney, they run substitute buses between many railway stations from 0000-0430 - it's not great, but it's possible to use buses to provide a minimum level of service coverage when the railways are shut down.
- claudius 9y ago
  Wouldn’t it be possible to have nightline buses operating the same routes as the subway during that window? It works well e.g. in Berlin and Munich and only takes minimally longer than the train (since the roads are not congested at night and the bus can hence go much faster). At least it should be possible for a temporary maintenance window?
piva00 9y ago
What stops NYC to do what any other city in the world does and just run a replacement bus line for the lines under maintenance? Even more if it's during the night, run a replacement bus close to the same stops as the stations and shut down the line. Or isn't NYC Metro card integrated between different modes of transportation?

ttn 9y ago

After I started riding motorcycle instead of public services or my car, time spent during transportation reduced almost %80. I live in Istanbul, when I leave work to go home (prime time) it takes up to 2 hours with car and 1.5 hour with public transportation to reach home. With my motorcycle it is around 25-35 minutes.

ttn 9y ago
There are many advantages (and few disadvantages) riding, for me time spent on road was the killer and you can not imagine how much I recommend it.

ggm 9y ago

I haven't been in NY for over 10 years. When I was there, the subway was fantastic. On time, cheap and clean (ish) Has there been some very rapid drop in service? is this something which forseeably could get better soon, or is it a one-way hole without a huge capital investment?

gberger 9y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/nyregion/mta-train-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/nyregion/mta-train-delays...

jotjotzzz 9y ago

NYC will never know how bad it is until they go out of the U.S. to such places in Asia like Thailand, HK, Taiwan, or Japan and experience those subway stations. There is no such thing as a "weekend service" and subways arrive on-time without question, there are clean restrooms and WiFi. The NYC subway is decades behind. It has remained stagnant in advancements and has now broken down due to lack of development and overcrowding. It's a problem.