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>For a person washing toilets, this could be the dream of sitting in front of that screen one day. For the person in front of that screen, it could be starting
by mayniac 9y ago
>For a person washing toilets, this could be the dream of sitting in front of that screen one day. For the person in front of that screen, it could be starting their own business or taking an early retirement and living the rest of their years off the beach.
And socialism could eliminate entirely the need to have someone washing toilets. I work in an office of about 2,000 people, over 10 floors, each with 2 sets of bathrooms for each gender. Going by 200 people per floor, assuming 50/50 gender split, that's 50 people per bathroom. It takes about half an hour to clean and restock each bathroom each day. Would you be hugely inconvenienced if you had to give up half an hour of your time every 50 days to clean the bathroom you use at work? I definitely wouldn't, and I think a lot of people would probably treat the bathrooms better if they did have to clean them on occasion.
Furthermore, the cleaners we have now aren't brain-dead animals: they have intellect, ideas, and ambitions of their own. I've met plenty of caretakers and other low-skilled workers who had been trained in other fields in the past, lost their jobs for varying reasons, and couldn't retrain due to time or financial constraints and got stuck in menial labour. Much of the time they simply cannot realistically ever move up the ladder. To quote Stephen Jay Gould:
>“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”
We have created a lot of menial jobs for the sake of them: and in a lot of cases, they have been created because as this article mentions, a lot of well-educated workers no longer have the time to do non-work related tasks themselves. Would takeaway deliver drivers really be as common as they are now if people were working twenty hours a week, and had time to cook for themselves? What about Starbucks employees? Taxi drivers? There are millions of people who could actually use their full potential if they weren't constrained by wage slavery. Those people would also be much more efficient at what they do if they had the freedom to do what they enjoyed.
>Capitalism enables people to move up. The system you described would actually be perfectly reflective of a more social economic system like communism. The government would measure your competency and then offer you a series of jobs. You would take that a job off that list and you would do it til the day you were allowed to stop working. All without any chance for ever achieving something better beyond that list of jobs they decided you were qualified for. And of course you'd receive the same compensation when you're 18 as when you're 50 with decades of experience, because that's fair...
This is a huge misunderstanding of communism. There are many, many different forms of anti-capitalism, and very few actually believe a centralised government forcing people to work in pre-determined fields is a good idea. I'm not as clued up on communist/socialist theory as I should be, but afaik what you're describing is a form of state socialism, and one which almost all anti-capitalists vehemently disagree with. I've seen many arguments started by people suggesting state ownership of capital: almost everyone agrees that the risk of corruption is far too high with a centralised state.
I highly recommend reading The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin. It paints an excellent picture of a more reasonable anarcho-communist society, without a centralised state, which could realistically exist. Just to make this comment relevant to the original article: he originally suggested, in the late 19th century, that the industrial era had already increased production to the point that nobody should have to work more than four hours a day. Furthermore, that the time people saved could be spent building tools of automation to further reduce people's workload. It is, if anything, far more relevant today than it was when it was written.
- taneq 9y agoSpecialisation improves efficiency. Sure, you could eliminate that full-time cleaner's job (probably leaving them unemployed) and replace their labour with that of a rotation of high-paid software engineers. Now your company is paying $100k+ a year to keep their toilets clean.
- nradov 9y agoApparently you're unfamiliar with Ricardo's Law of Comparative Advantage.
- TangoTrotFox 9y agoYou're not going to just decentralize every job. Toilet washing doesn't sound glorious but janitorial and especially plumbing work comes with some significant skills you have to learn. And besides that, if you spent just 30 minutes for each 'side' job, you'd find everybody in that building working about 20 hours a day and not getting a lick of programming done. There's an enormous amount of work to maintain a 10 story facility, and the vast majority of it is like most work - not exactly pleasant. Beyond this your argument that janitors have ideas/ambitions/etc again supports a capitalist system. There is nothing overtly stopping these people from trying to take their shot, difficult though it may be. Jack Ma is a good example there. He came from extremely humble beginnings and couldn't get a job even at KFC. He didn't ended up manually biking 'rich' tourists around to get by. In the process he ended up learning English and got exposed to some ideas and concepts that weren't so well known in China. A bit of luck, a lot of ambition, and some great ideas - and he's now one of the richest people in the world. He started his first business when he was already in his 30s, got his first computer when he was 33. Really I think people are unrealistically critical. Today every child in developed nations has the internet and guaranteed access to basic education and effectively guaranteed access to advanced education. Einstein, for instance, was teaching himself calculus at age 12. That sort of extreme outlier in ability, and maybe even more importantly - ambition and motivation, is not something or somebody that's going to end up end up toiling fields in modern society. And the privileges we all have today are largely a product of the extremes of wealth that allow people to be educated for decades before having to return a single cent back to society.